Devnote Tuesdays: The 0.24 Update Goals Edition

[KN_Namida]

If y'all don't mind me asking, and I certainly hope I don't sound rude or impertinent here, how exactly do y'all envision multiplayer KSP working? Would it be competitive, cooperative, some sort of mutual sandbox, how? Just curious. Has this been addressed elsewhere?

As Captain Sierra already stated, KSP has the benefit of being primarily a sandbox game, so organizing and implementing a multiplayer mode is easier than with other genres.

Also, I wouldn't mind if multiplayer followed the path that the singleplayer component of the game made: you could have a multiplayer sandbox mode, with some servers running and being basically a rocket playground (I'm so looking forward to such a thing), and also a multiplayer career mode, a co-op basically, where 2 (or more) players work together for the good of the space program. It could work like, player 1 launches a rocket and performs a mission, then it's player 2's turn, or maybe both players could play at the same time, performing Gemini-style dockings and making their way to Laythe, one with a buggy and the other with a spaceplane... There are just so many possibilities...

Of course, multiplayer should be completely separated from the singleplayer experience, no question about it.

[JSD]

Still NO decent win64 client support from unity who do I need to bribe over there to get that made available

Technically; Unity already support 64 bit versions. Nobody knows what the real problem is, but Unity v.s KSP on a 64 bit Windows platform is asking for a whole lot of weird problems. There is already a 64 bit Linux version of KSP out there. About the Apple platform I don't have a clue. (..IOS..) I just hate that "I" claiming thingy that Apple has going on there, so I'm stubbed and try to avoid it as much as I can. Unity 64 bit Windows version v.s KSP code is a weird combination. Leave it at that. They try to get it work, but right now.. It doesn't work that well..

Edited February 5, 2014 by JSD

[liweih]

Good information

[Captain Sierra]

Technically; Unity already support 64 bit versions. Nobody knows what the real problem is, but Unity v.s KSP on a 64 bit Windows platform is asking for a whole lot of weird problems. There is already a 64 bit Linux version of KSP out there. About the Apple platform I don't have a clue. (..IOS..) I just hate that "I" claiming thingy that Apple has going on there, so I'm stubbed and try to avoid it as much as I can. Unity 64 bit Windows version v.s KSP code is a weird combination. Leave it at that. They try to get it work, but right now.. It doesn't work that well..

Part of the problem is Unity Win64 is HIGHLY unstable (as in crashing 50% of the time on engine initialization). Now, KSP already uses PQS to circumvent some of Unity's deficiencies and really pushes the engine to it's limits. Unity was never built to handle anything remotely like KSP. Add in the fact that KSP is still alpha and not entirely stable in and of itself, and you are literally asking for motherboard searing problems.

And don't even get me started on apple, which, from what I've heard for those that code for OSX, the propriety and red tape to work with just iOS is a pain, and to do that for OSX (mac PCs) is an absolute nightmare, not even addressing the fact that they say the SDK materials aren't great or that the unix-derived root code is just diifferent enough that unix coding won't work on apple systems. But I'm no mac coder (thank God) so I have to go off the few that I know.

[Virtualgenius]

Oh great multiplayer support or infrastructure more lag more memory overhead would not the time be better spent on improving memory optimization since we are stuck on 32 bit and no 64 bit in sight due to Unity dropping the ball and not planning for the future

cziken20 why on earth would you use XP 32/64 bit when we have win 7 and win 8.1 if you didnt know Microsoft are dropping XP like a hot potato no more patches or support

[KasperVld]

Oh great multiplayer support or infrastructure more lag more memory overhead would not the time be better spent on improving memory optimization since we are stuck on 32 bit and no 64 bit in sight due to Unity dropping the ball and not planning for the future

cziken20 why on earth would you use XP 32/64 bit when we have win 7 and win 8.1 if you didnt know Microsoft are dropping XP like a hot potato no more patches or support

Optimisations have been a focus on the recent updates, and I believe the changes in Unity 4.3.3 also have a few optimisations in them that the devs get for free. Perhaps optimisation isn't a main priority in this update, but the devs have repeatedly stated that it is always in the back of their minds. As for a 64 bit build, C7 recently commented in one of Scott Manley's videos that they're doing tests with a 64 bit build on Unity 4.3.3 and that it's the most stable so far. No promises of course, but it's encouraging.

p.s. your post would be much easier to read if you used some punctuation

[KerbMav]

Multiplayer should reactivate the other space centers or add a few around the equator on different continents.

How many players in one instance are possible/reasonable anyway?

And now for something completely different:

Are all celestial bodies finalized in regards to their design? I only can remember the reworking of Mun (which is still to dark for my taste! ).

So, if Squad is holding back on biomes for the rest because they still have plans for more reworking or if they simply do not wish to invest that much time right now ... well, I could live with the simplest south and north pole, soutern and northern hemisphere and equatorial region stand in biomes for the time being ...

[Alewx]

I have a serious question for any Squad member:

Unity is not going to be 64bit in the forseeable future, and from my own experience with Unity the memory usage, is a pain in the ass; can we excpect some kind of multithreading or updated garbage collector for improved rocket buidling performance, not in 0.24 but in one of the following updates? The Unity API itself is blocking any mutlithreading so everything would have to be made new in C#. I know that is nothing of the funny things with the engine.

Currently my System struggles to handle anything larger than 400 parts. So some shown rockets with 2.6k parts really make me wonder what I do wrong.

Also I believe that beginning with the MP is a good thing, because it is a bit like Minecraft, for you alone it is nice, but playing together with friends makes the gaming experience really awesome:).

My System:

Intel i7 3,4GhZ

NVidia 580GTX SLI

16GB Ram 1333

Samsung 250Gb HDD

Win 7 64bit Ultimate

Can you give any advice or hint?

@KerbMav:

The limit of participants in the MP would be how the stuff gets organzied; because the physics would have to be handled by each single machine or the server itself, and the more players and the more parts the more the Performance would drop.

[Raven.]

The rigid joints update is a huge plus! I think that the rigid joints fix is a much needed update and will make a lot of players very happy.

I'm also kind of curious as to the biomes in KSP and the 0.24 update. 0.23 added biome support to Minmus, is the 0.24 update going to add any biome support to any other celestial body, such as Eve or Duna? So far this is the only reason why I haven't sent any large missions to either one of those planets in my career game; I'm waiting for full biome support.

[Wahgineer]

It was stated that multiplayer will not be the only option: after the complete implementation of multiplayer, there will be four gamemodes

singleplayer sandbox

singleplayer career

mulitplayer career

multiplayer sandbox

Also, do to the nature of KSP's complexity, it will be very hard to grief others.

[Commissar]

It was stated that multiplayer will not be the only option: after the complete implementation of multiplayer, there will be four gamemodes

singleplayer sandbox

singleplayer career

mulitplayer career

multiplayer sandbox

Also, do to the nature of KSP's complexity, it will be very hard to grief others.

no it won't, lol. just sent a kinetic kill vehicle into someone's space station.

[Raven.]

no it won't, lol. just sent a kinetic kill vehicle into someone's space station.

That is what "ban from server" buttons are for.

[MajorSpittle]

The way I see MP working is that the server will track both time and position of all objects. Thus when you send your "kinetic kill vehicle" at my space station at 10X time acceleration the server will automatically see that your vehicle will collide with another player's object and drop your time warp to 1X when it gets within 10 minutes (my game time) of projected impact. Also it won't matter because I got tired of griefers like you and set my game to "ignore damage from other player's vehicles" and only uncheck that option during docking maneuvers with friends.

I don't see a system being able to handle more then 3,000 objects for about 10 different players because of [(O*L)*I]P^TO is the calculations the Server would have to make every instance of game play. Where O=objects L=Location(plotted trajectory for lookahead) I=Instance in time for object P=Players TO=Total of all objects[for collision detection] [(O*L)*I]P

But I would guess if I am playing on a Multiplayer Server that I could click on any players object or Name and Time accelerate to his time as long as he is at 1x and in the future. The problem is that I can't go back in time so if another player has launched object X at my time-2days and his object X blows up at my time - 1day then object X never existed to me in the game(while my objects were at those previous locations). Like wise my objects existed to the other player in a different location then they currently are and he can't interact with them in my past because that would effect my present (cite Back to the Future). Soooooo, basically the other player will only have access to seeing my object's locations at my current game time and could only interact with them if he is at my current game time.

All the planet's/Moon's/Asteriod's rotation/locations..... are on a fixed time plane which relates to the player furthest in time on the server (can't move an asteriod in my past, so you have to come to my time in the future). My guess is that if I launch vehicle X on Jan 1 1998 game time, I will be able to see everyone's vehicles which are color coded as to whether they are in the future or in the past related to my game time and their locations at that player who owns them's current game time. I can interact with one's in the future through time acceleration, but the past is out of the question ( I have to tell them to accelerate to my time for interaction ).

What I envision for MP is going to be most useful for class rooms or 1 group working together on same mission/ships. Maybe you could have 3 groups competing but not interacting with each other (space race to Duna between 3 people). MP isn't going to be very useful for people just being thrown together randomly unless you like watching other people play because interaction would require time and common goals. And please don't crash the server by time accelerating with 4 other people to be the furthest person in the future.

It will be interesting to hear how they plan to do it.

[jmiki8]

Contracts FTW! Thank you!

[CattyNebulart]

I for one am looking forward to multiplayer the most. But contracts and money will be nice too.

[NQMT]

That is what "ban from server" buttons are for.

All that does is stop them. Your station will still just be a cloud of debris.

[Rakaydos]

I'd like to see a multiplayer server that enables KSP2 for the second player, or sets up an interplanetary launchpad on kerbin for the other team,

[Captain Sierra]

I'd like to see a multiplayer server that enables KSP2 for the second player, or sets up an interplanetary launchpad on kerbin for the other team,

I second multiple KSCs. We'd realistically need them because, being a sandbox, you could do coop, you could do military, or you could do adversarial kethane harvesting (I kick my friend's a** at this regularly ). More importantly, how would you launch at the same time to race your friend to orbit? You can't both load on the same pad. That would induce massive kraken.

[Tidus Klein]

AAA yes better less wibbily wobbaly ships and contracts,....... but wheres the 64 bit support indicated back in .19 with unity 4.0?

not that im complaining.

[Wjolcz]

No update to space plane parts they look so tired.

Seconded

[jcraft]

No update to space plane parts they look so tired.

They are currently looking for a new content designer who "would be in charge of modeling and texturing parts and buildings inside the game" (LINK TO FULL POST). So I think it is coming sooner rather than later.

[KN_Namida]

They are currently looking for a new content designer who "would be in charge of modeling and texturing parts and buildings inside the game" (LINK TO FULL POST). So I think it is coming sooner rather than later.

Also, I'm looking forward to seeing what this mysterious individual may have in stock for us... content designer in charge of modeling and texturing parts and buildings inside the game... parts and buildings... this probably means addition and/or reworking of stock parts in the main game, in a reasonable amount of time. But buildings... I mean, we got the space center remodeled completely between 0.21 and 0.22, and I couldn't be happier for it, it looks very good now. The insular airfield was redone too, and looks just as good as the KSC. And the only other buildings I can think of on Kerbin are the second space center and the temple in the desert (though that's more a monument than a building). But this post made me think, maybe we're getting new buildings for real... Don't know what exactly, but I'm liking the idea a lot, let's wait and see what we get

[Wjolcz]

They are currently looking for a new content designer who "would be in charge of modeling and texturing parts and buildings inside the game" (LINK TO FULL POST). So I think it is coming sooner rather than later.

Awwwwwwwwwww yissssssssssssss. Good to know.

[Superfluous J]

Looking forward to contracts and all you people worried about mutliplayer: Don't. They're laying the groundwork. They have to. The earlier they start the less work they have to do later hammering multiplayer into the finished product. It's bad enough they're starting this late, don't hate on them for not putting it off further! Nobody's going to force you to play multiplayer, and any server admin worth his salt should be making backups on a frequent basis. This isn't going to be a Half Life server. It'll be more like a Minecraft server and they solved these problems years ago.

And Squad: Take your time. I've still got plenty to do in 0.23 and it looks like contracts will nearly require a career restart.

[Clockwork13]

I'm mostly excited for new tutorials