The mobile processing lab is terrible.

[Whackjob]

I like using them...

... which reminds me I should really get around to redoing these.

[Superfluous J]

I guess I still don't understand how science works. Do I only need to bring a single goo container/science module? I can then EVA a Kerbal, remove the results, store them in a command pod, and the lab can then clean out the goo container/science module so they can be re-used? The way I always did it, if I thought I was going to visit four biomes, I'd take four of each type of science-generating part. Is that unnecessary?!

BTW, I'm not interested in transmitting the results, it's such a waste if you do.

Others are answering you with strategies so I'm going to instead just tell you the facts/rules of science.

• Every science instrument has a right-click option to "take" the data. Thermometers for instance, after you take a reading it's sitting on the thermometer and you can take a Kerbal out there (Must be done with a Kerbal on EVA) and right click it and "take" the reading. Then your Kerbal can get back in the capsule and now the reading is in the capsule. You can do this a hundred times and have a hundred unique temperature readings in your capsule. NOTE: You can only store one temperature reading PER BIOME. Including high orbit, low orbit, landed in a biome, etc.
  
• In addition to that, you can even right click a command module and "take" all the data from there, including any crew reports. Then you can store them right back in the same pod and then take more crew reports. You technically don't have to even transmit those! Though they're worth 100% so you may as well.
  
• Two science instruments, Goos and Science Jrs, will warn you if you remove their data that they will become "used up." After you take the data, they will remain open and you won't be able to do anything with them. These two instruments can then be cleaned with a science lab. If they are, then they can be re-used an infinite amount of times.
  
• So you can build a ship with a single goo and a single jr, and a single one of each other experiment you have available, and land it somewhere on Minmus. Do all your science, and then get your Kerbal out to take all that science from all the instruments (including the goo and jr). Don't forget to get 2 EVA's, one from the ladder and one from the ground, and your surface sample as well. Then lift off, dock with your orbiting science lab, clean out the experiments, and then go back down for more.
  
• There are more efficient ways to do the above and less efficient ways, but all ways utilize that basic functionality of take readings, collect the data on eva, then scrub the stuff that needs cleaned, then repeat.
  

[-Velocity-]

Others are answering you with strategies so I'm going to instead just tell you the facts/rules of science.

• Every science instrument has a right-click option to "take" the data. Thermometers for instance, after you take a reading it's sitting on the thermometer and you can take a Kerbal out there (Must be done with a Kerbal on EVA) and right click it and "take" the reading. Then your Kerbal can get back in the capsule and now the reading is in the capsule. You can do this a hundred times and have a hundred unique temperature readings in your capsule. NOTE: You can only store one temperature reading PER BIOME. Including high orbit, low orbit, landed in a biome, etc.
  
• In addition to that, you can even right click a command module and "take" all the data from there, including any crew reports. Then you can store them right back in the same pod and then take more crew reports. You technically don't have to even transmit those! Though they're worth 100% so you may as well.
  
• Two science instruments, Goos and Science Jrs, will warn you if you remove their data that they will become "used up." After you take the data, they will remain open and you won't be able to do anything with them. These two instruments can then be cleaned with a science lab. If they are, then they can be re-used an infinite amount of times.
  
• So you can build a ship with a single goo and a single jr, and a single one of each other experiment you have available, and land it somewhere on Minmus. Do all your science, and then get your Kerbal out to take all that science from all the instruments (including the goo and jr). Don't forget to get 2 EVA's, one from the ladder and one from the ground, and your surface sample as well. Then lift off, dock with your orbiting science lab, clean out the experiments, and then go back down for more.
  
• There are more efficient ways to do the above and less efficient ways, but all ways utilize that basic functionality of take readings, collect the data on eva, then scrub the stuff that needs cleaned, then repeat.
  

Wow, thanks, that's what I was looking for. I usually do sandbox, but I'm in the process of re-doing the career mode (I want to max out my career mode so I effectively have a sandbox mode, but a sandbox mode where I can still build science points) so this is very helpful!

So I guess I don't understand why you need to visit six biomes for the lab to be useful. If it can clean out and reset experiments, and you can store ALL of the science data from that experiment, then the lab ought to start becoming useful when you visit 2 or more biomes, by allowing you to bring only one of each instrument. Right? Or is the "six biomes" number based on the number of science experiments required to equal the mass of the mobile lab?

[Superfluous J]

Wow, thanks, that's what I was looking for.

You're welcome

So I guess I don't understand why you need to visit six biomes for the lab to be useful.

That all has to do with fuel efficiency. The science lab is heavy and lugging it all the way to, say, Moho is dubious because instead you could bring 6 little "goo and jr" packages, each with a docking port on it or cleverly attached via decouplers, and then whenever you take the reading (and eva to take the reading) just ditch it. Your craft starts off lighter (or just a little less light) than if you brought the lab, and gets lighter all the time. Plus, you don't have to carry the jr and goo back up from the surface.

But for Mun and Minmus it's great. It's even better there because if you're clever you can transfer from one moon to the other with the lab and not have to lift it back off of Kerbin.

Hmmm. Nobody's* analyzed the idea of doing that, and because it's up there anyway sending THAT to different planets to clean out experiments. Essentially only ever launch one lab and keep sending it different places to use with a newly built lander mission. Hmmmm. Hmmmmmmmmmm.

*That I've heard, at least. Apologies if someone said it already

Edited April 18, 2014 by 5thHorseman

[-Velocity-]

Hmmm. Nobody's* analyzed the idea of doing that, and because it's up there anyway sending THAT to different planets to clean out experiments. Essentially only ever launch one lab and keep sending it different places to use with a newly built lander mission. Hmmmm. Hmmmmmmmmmm.

*That I've heard, at least. Apologies if someone said it already

You don't necessarily need a different lander... a 100% reusable Tylo lander (which isn't that hard to make, even with stock-only parts) works for landing and returning from the surface of any body (except Eve, of course). (If you're gonna have your reusable Tylo lander multitask to other planets, it helps to equip it with parachutes for Laythe and Duna. A good Tylo lander design should have enough spare impulse to lug around a couple chutes.) Hitting the bullseye with the right landing spot on Laythe can be tough though, which is why space planes are usually preferred...

[Rakaydos]

You don't necessarily need a different lander... a 100% reusable Tylo lander (which isn't that hard to make, even with stock-only parts) works for landing and returning from the surface of any body (except Eve, of course). (If you're gonna have your reusable Tylo lander multitask to other planets, it helps to equip it with parachutes for Laythe and Duna. A good Tylo lander design should have enough spare impulse to lug around a couple chutes.) Hitting the bullseye with the right landing spot on Laythe can be tough though, which is why space planes are usually preferred...

That makes me wonder... for a hypothetical "grand tour" mission, could a fully fueled Tylo lander detach from a vessel on an Eve slingshot to Moho, fly ahead, make a brief landing on Gilly for the science, and catch up with the main vessel? Or is the slingshot too much DeltaV for even a tylo lander?

[SkyRender]

That makes me wonder... for a hypothetical "grand tour" mission, could a fully fueled Tylo lander detach from a vessel on an Eve slingshot to Moho, fly ahead, make a brief landing on Gilly for the science, and catch up with the main vessel? Or is the slingshot too much DeltaV for even a tylo lander?

Really, it's a matter of timing. If you nail it perfectly for an Eve-Moho transfer, it tends to take around 4000 to 4400dV or so to complete the Eve departure and circularization around Moho. A fully capable Tylo lander needs in the neighborhood of 6400dV, so it's well within reason as long as it can reach Gilly, land, return to low Eve orbit, and get into position for its slingshot within 2000dv.

[Rakaydos]

Really, it's a matter of timing. If you nail it perfectly for an Eve-Moho transfer, it tends to take around 4000 to 4400dV or so to complete the Eve departure and circularization around Moho. A fully capable Tylo lander needs in the neighborhood of 6400dV, so it's well within reason as long as it can reach Gilly, land, return to low Eve orbit, and get into position for its slingshot within 2000dv.

Thing is, by dropping to gilly's orbital speed, the lander misses the slingshot, so has to burn all the Delta V that the mothership would be gaining by coasting through.

The lander could dash ahead early in the kerbin/eve transfer and aerobreak into a Gilly landing, but then needs to make an independant Eve/Moho transfer to catch the mothership that didnt bother slowing down. I'm trying to find the Delta D roadmat to figure out what that would be.

[SkyRender]

Thing is, by dropping to gilly's orbital speed, the lander misses the slingshot, so has to burn all the Delta V that the mothership would be gaining by coasting through.

The lander could dash ahead early in the kerbin/eve transfer and aerobreak into a Gilly landing, but then needs to make an independant Eve/Moho transfer to catch the mothership that didnt bother slowing down. I'm trying to find the Delta D roadmat to figure out what that would be.

Generally speaking, it takes around 1050dV to get from Kerbin to Eve efficiently, and of course you can aerobrake to cut down costs on arrival to near-zero. Similarly, if your arrival plane is just right, you can get a Gilly encounter for nearly nothing as well this way. As I said before, you need around 4400dV or so to do an optimal Eve-Moho transfer. Since a Tylo lander needs 6400dV minimum, so as long as your in-system maneuvers for reaching Gilly, landing, and returning to Eve orbit don't exceed 950dV or so, you can do a Kerbin-to-Eve-to-Gilly transfer and still manage a trip to Moho after.

Granted, that IS a pretty big "as long as"...

[Rakaydos]

I was planning on having the mothership handle the Kerbin/Eve transfer with the lander still attached, so the lander doesnt need that fuel capacity.

Idealy, mission would look like:

Launch to LKO/HKO, do science

Transfer to polar Mun orbit, lander gets all the science

Transfer to Minmus orbit, lander does all the science

Mothership drops periaps to LKO to slingshoot to eve, makes transfer burn.

Solar orbit science

-Lander detaches, burns for a slightly earlier Eve encounter

-Lander aerobreaks at eve, Science Group 1 takes "flying at" science, and transfers to Gilly

-Lander lands at gilly, uses Science Group 2 for surface science.

Mothership slingshots Eve, bound for Moho. Does high and Low eve orbit science

-Lander launches from Gilly, burns at Eve periapse to catch up with mothership

-Lander docks with mothership. Science is collected and reset, lander is refueled.

Mothership sets up a moho slingshot back to eve. Does high moho science.

-Lander detatches, does low Moho science and lands, then launches to catch up with the mothership.

Mothership flys by Eve.

-Lander maneuvers around to collect the high and low Gilly orbit biomes it missed last time, and meets up with mothership.

Flyby of Kerbin toward Duna

...ect.

[Franklin]

The lab will make more sense when more planets roll out with biomes, and make even more sense when returning to Kerbin is no longer an expense-less option. Keep in mind currently you never have to consider expense of a mission. When you do, the lab will fall into place.

But as it is returning to Kerbin is pretty easy if you prepare enough fuel, which is free, and if you fly multiple ships in tandem, which are free, and bring 4x goo canisters and 2x science jrs, which are all free to bring as many as you'd like. And losing them in an accident is free, so who cares about a botched mission or three.

I'd be impressed with the lab presently if it provided a 100% return on science. Or even 90%. As it is it's just a huge antennae that saves players a little time. It being able to re-use science parts is great, but everything's free, so that really just saves the player a trip back and another launch. If they're flying multiple ships in tandem, it doesn't even really save them that.

[HeadHunter67]

If you are going to document the way this game works, you can throw away the ENTIRE documentation every few updates.

Hyperbole and exaggeration won't help the discussion.

Any documentation about science from before the Mobile Lab would have been useless after it was introduced.

No one needed documentation on the Lab "before it was introduced", so... your point?

This is an alpha game. It's not complete yet. Don't expect it to be

We're not expecting it to be complete - but Christ, would it be too much to ask to have some concrete documentation on what's here right now? "Figure it out for yourselves" is a lazy way out. The game is not in alpha, and regardless, we're not product testers (they would either be given documentation, or writing it).

Letting it transmit up to 100% with a little mod made the science lab genuinely useful. Even if I only really had the tech to make a nice station by the time the tree was nearly done.

I'd be interested in using that plugin! I agree with you, though, that a lot of the high-end science unlocks are kind of superfluous because by then, they're no longer needed.

[Franklin]

Ever since its inception I assumed the part was designed with the idea that at some point you had to operate within a budget. It'll make far more sense when two rockets or 4 back and forth trips just aren't in the budget.

[Vanamonde]

would it be too much to ask to have some concrete documentation on what's here right now?

If you think it's that important and such a minor task, no one is stopping you from making a manual yourself and keeping it updated.

[Boomerang]

I like using them...

http://i.imgur.com/FOKyqWm.png

... which reminds me I should really get around to redoing these.

By the Kraken... It's like the VAB's stockroom was possessed and crawled out onto the launchpad... I'd look terrified too if I was one of those kerbals

[ArmchairGravy]

One really important thing with the labs is they allow you to store duplicate experiments. Therefore you can take 2 readings/samples and get all of the available science points with one shot.

[HeadHunter67]

If you think it's that important and such a minor task, no one is stopping you from making a manual yourself and keeping it updated.

I don't think it's a "minor task" - but let's be frank, SQUAD isn't working for free, either. I'd be glad to share everything I know - but the issue is, I'm not the one who has the information, because I didn't make the software.

Relying on your user base to discover the features for themselves and maintain the documentation is unique to gaming software. The fact that there's debate, lack of knowledge, misunderstanding, and often times blatant misinformation passed around in the community is just an example of what happens when users have to write the docs.

[Whackjob]

Frankly, I'd rather have them making new things for me to abuse, rather than writing a pamphlet. If anyone has trouble, they'll find this community. And completely, save the rarest of examples, we are a classy and helpful bunch. To which I reference my coffee thread... anyone can see how inept I was when I began.

[Liowen]

Frankly, I'd rather have them making new things for me to abuse, rather than writing a pamphlet. If anyone has trouble, they'll find this community. And completely, save the rarest of examples, we are a classy and helpful bunch. To which I reference my coffee thread... anyone can see how inept I was when I began.

This is how I feel also. Yes there are a few people who could....have extreme things happen to them... for the most everyone has been fairly helpful and, at times, overly patient with handling repeat questions. The question section of the forums I have found helpful, all one has to do is use the search box and use general terms to find what they need. I find myself going there a lot of times when I have a question, and normally I find the answer but if not I ask.

[ayana]

I'd be interested in using that plugin! I agree with you, though, that a lot of the high-end science unlocks are kind of superfluous because by then, they're no longer needed.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/65033

I played a whole career mode game through with it, and it was vastly more interesting than the stock experience. The lab is quite a bit heavier, but basically acts as a portable Kerbin for full science without recovery.

[Dodgey]

Actually there is information out there. Search on YouTube for information and you will be flooded with information. The media team exists for the purpose of giving the community information about the latest version. It's not Squads or anyone else's responsibility to spoon feed you information. If you lack the forethought to make sure the lab works the way you think it does then tough. There are many many ways for you to find out the information you need.

[razark]

If you think it's that important and such a minor task, no one is stopping you from making a manual yourself and keeping it updated.

The problem is that there's not a central, official source of what certain features/parts do in the game. Note this thread. It has multiple different people speculating on what the lab module does and how to use it. We're not asking for a novel documenting every nook and cranny of the game (gods, I miss the days when you could club a man to death with a game manual). A couple of sentences about each part, what it does, and how to use the features is all we need.

Actually there is information out there. Search on YouTube for information and you will be flooded with information.

I don't always have time to search through youtube and watch a bunch of videos in the hope that I might find a crumb of information. It's very annoying to sit and watch a rather boring/stupid/etc video just to find a five second portion that explains something that could should have been a couple of lines in a readme file.

[Superfluous J]

Hyperbole and exaggeration won't help the discussion.

No one needed documentation on the Lab "before it was introduced", so... your point?

Are you kidding? EVERYB... Er. You don't want hyperbole. Lots of people needed documentation on how science worked before the lab came out. People will need it again when budgets come into play, and more science is available, and when the use of the lab changes in any way Squad sees fit to change it.

Please don't ask Squad to waste time doing redundant tasks that are destined to need redone. And hopefully when others do, they won't listen to them either.

The game is not in alpha

See my signature. We are not testers but we did pay for this thing knowing what we were going to get (for me, that was "planets other than Mun" and I'm happy to have gotten more since) and "lack of documentation until it's all done" is one of those things.

[Whackjob]

Ultimate Guide to KSP in the works.

[MarvinKitFox]

The full documentation is included in your Version 1.0 Boxset of Kerbal Space Program

As a file in the regular version, and as a very nice illustrated booklet in the Deluxe Collector's edition.

Surely you kept the box, when you bought your Version 1.0 release of the game?