Should KSP have a Delta-V readout?

[wumpus]

If you aren't expected to do the rocket equation with every launch, why do they include delta-v with every burn (or does that come with KE and I've never noticed)?  Also the "there's a mod" argument no longer works as of the PS4 launch.

How many times has a delta-v calculator been written for the game?  There is KE (and a claim that KSPedu uses it), mech jeb, and any others?  Certainly the hard part is determining multiple overlapping stages with different ISPs (something common on my rockets and a reason I never feel that calculating the rocket equation is all that easy).

But I really think that the PS4 (and other consoles) launch will make delta-v a necessary item.

[monstah]

On 13/07/2016 at 5:36 AM, John FX said:

It doesn`t.

What is precluded though is standard KSP using the code for said readout from KSPEdu as they don`t/can`t share that due to licensing. A Dv readout would have to be written for our KSP from scratch.

It has never been about the difficulty to calculate Dv. That part has been ready ages ago. It has been about the UI design (read from about half the 4:00 paragraph) for quite some time.

On 12/07/2016 at 6:26 PM, Kerbart said:

On the other hand, it completely derails the argument it's so hard to get it right, we'd rather not give out the wrong figures. If you think it's good enough to give to my son in classroom (so to speak), than it's definitely good enough for me to use casually in a game, after all.

^ So, this.

[John FX]

1 hour ago, monstah said:

It has never been about the difficulty to calculate Dv.

Never said it was, others have though. I was commenting that for most edu features (like the mission planner for example) you can`t just grab them and put them in our KSP because of licensing, although it seems that the code for the edu Dv readout comes from KER which would bypass that.

[Wjolcz]

On 14.07.2016 at 3:40 PM, John FX said:

Never said it was, others have though. I was commenting that for most edu features (like the mission planner for example) you can`t just grab them and put them in our KSP because of licensing, although it seems that the code for the edu Dv readout comes from KER which would bypass that.

How does that licensing actually work? Was the code really donated or did SQUAD pay money for it? Can't it be simply donated or paid for again and included into KSP?

I would assume there's a different team working on KerbalEDU, but aren't both things properties of SQUAD, or something?

[Red Iron Crown]

4 hours ago, Veeltch said:

How does that licensing actually work? Was the code really donated or did SQUAD pay money for it? Can't it be simply donated or paid for again and included into KSP?

I don't know the details of KerbalEDU and KER other than the mention of it in the readme for KerbalEDU, but in general GPLed software can be redistributed under different terms if all the contributors agree.

4 hours ago, Veeltch said:

I would assume there's a different team working on KerbalEDU, but aren't both things properties of SQUAD, or something?

KerbalEDU is a product of another company, TeacherGaming, that builds on top of KSP. There is some collaboration between the two companies but they are separate.

[Wjolcz]

10 hours ago, Red Iron Crown said:

KerbalEDU is a product of another company, TeacherGaming, that builds on top of KSP. There is some collaboration between the two companies but they are separate.

Ooooh, that actually explains a lot.

[Ogcorp Squirrel]

short answer, yes.

answer: yes so I can actually FLY TO LAYTHE

[pandaman]

Dv readouts? Yes please, but toggle able.

I like to 'design' my vessels for whatever task I have in mind, and for me, a big part of that design process is evaluating their capabilities as I try different things in the VAB/SPH.  A Dv readout (I use KER) makes that part of the design process quicker and more practical for me.  I could use the spreadsheet and calculator method (and I would probably enjoy the challenge of creating my own spreadsheet), but I much prefer not to and the 'novelty' of using it would probably wear a bit thin before long.

As much as I like KER I do think integrating it into stock as is would be the wrong approach, both from a code efficiency and UI integration angle.

[WhiskyHotel3]

I think no. 

Part of my fun in KSP is doing the math before launch, calculating data etc;

Like the "Delta V = Isp * g *  ln(full mass/dry mass)" equations really make the game feel like a 'Space Program.' Especially in career mode with Revert and quick loading turned off. If you guys to implement this feature, please maybe include a disable button so players like me can pretend to be Rocket scientists.

 

[MinimalMinmus]

Super yes. I just want dV readouts so bad in stock! Honestly, you could even say KER should be put into the stock game, as it is very helpful on many great infos, including dV, suicide burn distance, and so on.

[John FX]

7 hours ago, WhiskyHotel3 said:

Part of my fun in KSP is doing the math before launch, calculating data etc;

There is nothing about a Dv readout that would stop you from doing that. I imagine you currently have various parts weight, fuel capacity, thrust etc copied to somewhere not inside the game so you can do the maths, if so there would literally be no difference, it all happens outside the game anyway. At worst it would confirm your maths is correct before you press `launch`. At best your maths would be more accurate than the readout.

For the rest of us it would greatly enhance the stock game.

Also, I cannot believe this thread is still active after nearly 2 years with no sight of a Dv readout or anything resembling `Schmelta-Vee`

 

Sometimes I am sure Squad just say words then forget them.

[WhiskyHotel3]

2 hours ago, John FX said:

There is nothing about a Dv readout that would stop you from doing that. I imagine you currently have various parts weight, fuel capacity, thrust etc copied to somewhere not inside the game so you can do the maths, if so there would literally be no difference, it all happens outside the game anyway. At worst it would confirm your maths is correct before you press `launch`. At best your maths would be more accurate than the readout.

For the rest of us it would greatly enhance the stock game.

Also, I cannot believe this thread is still active after nearly 2 years with no sight of a Dv readout or anything resembling `Schmelta-Vee`

 

Sometimes I am sure Squad just say words then forget them.

3

I'm sure they are focusing on other things but adding something like a Dv readout would be easy right?

[razark]

40 minutes ago, WhiskyHotel3 said:

I'm sure they are focusing on other things but adding something like a Dv readout would be easy right?

If you've never seen the source code to a program, saying "adding <feature> should be easy" is something you should not say.

Edited April 14, 2017 by razark

[nascarlaser1]

Yes, but only at high tech levels (perhaps have part that lets you enable them, but without the piece you don't have the readouts?). I think that if you had the readout from the very beginning it would take the fun and challenge out of the game. There is nothing better (that I've experienced ) then being able to figure out the exact deltaV requirements (taking into account refueling) to go from Kerbin, then to Minimus, and then all the way back to Kerbin on the third try. If I were to have a deltaV count, I would've done on try number 1, which, while slightly more exciting, would've take the fun of trial and error away (and all my kabooms ).

[Wjolcz]

9 hours ago, nascarlaser1 said:

Yes, but only at high tech levels (perhaps have part that lets you enable them, but without the piece you don't have the readouts?). I think that if you had the readout from the very beginning it would take the fun and challenge out of the game. There is nothing better (that I've experienced ) then being able to figure out the exact deltaV requirements (taking into account refueling) to go from Kerbin, then to Minimus, and then all the way back to Kerbin on the third try. If I were to have a deltaV count, I would've done on try number 1, which, while slightly more exciting, would've take the fun of trial and error away (and all my kabooms ).

For me not knowing the exact delta-v kills all the fun. If you wanted the "hilarity of kabooms" you could just ignore the readout for the first few flights.

Edited April 14, 2017 by Veeltch

[klgraham1013]

12 hours ago, nascarlaser1 said:

Yes, but only at high tech levels (perhaps have part that lets you enable them, but without the piece you don't have the readouts?). I think that if you had the readout from the very beginning it would take the fun and challenge out of the game. There is nothing better (that I've experienced ) then being able to figure out the exact deltaV requirements (taking into account refueling) to go from Kerbin, then to Minimus, and then all the way back to Kerbin on the third try. If I were to have a deltaV count, I would've done on try number 1, which, while slightly more exciting, would've take the fun of trial and error away (and all my kabooms ).

Much as with patched conics and maneuver nodes, restricting tools in the early game is not good design.  You're making the game artificially more difficult at the stage when it should be at it's easiest.  The difficulty of KSP should be getting to the next planet.  Plan and simple.

Edited April 14, 2017 by klgraham1013

[Razorforce7]

KSP should not have a Delta-V readout. To me this would be 1 of 1000 minor things that could be added to KSP that can be suggested, but isn't absolutely necessary to have.
Having been around this community for some time I learned that KSP is a barebone platform. It gives you exactly what you need to work with while keeping system requirements low.
My point is that if you start with a Delta-V readout you'll soon have more system and navigational aids added to the vanilla game.
Something that will cripple KSP since it loads everything directly into RAM, which is stupid btw. And since it's not to difficult to download a megabyte or two even with 64kbps in the sahara dessert I see no reason to make it more available by adding it to stock KSP.

[John FX]

26 minutes ago, Razorforce7 said:

My point is that if you start with a Delta-V readout you'll soon have more system and navigational aids added to the vanilla game.

But that is a good thing.

12 hours ago, razark said:

If you've never seen the source code to a program, saying "adding <feature> should be easy" is something you should not say.

I am not sure but they may have been using sarcasm to make the same point. It is hard to tell on the internet.

Squad have perviously said they had done good work making requesters etc easier though, and the guts of the code has already been worked out for KER and MJ. A Dv readout is not much more than that. It would not be as hard as some other features that are wanted, like multiplayer for example. I am not sure that will ever happen.

Anyway, my point is they would not need to reinvent the wheel, just take good advice from those who already have. While it may not make the job *very* easy, it would make it easier than starting from scratch with awkward requester code like it used to be.

[W. Kerman]

On April 13, 2017 at 8:19 AM, WhiskyHotel3 said:

I think no. 

Part of my fun in KSP is doing the math before launch, calculating data etc;

Like the "Delta V = Isp * g *  ln(full mass/dry mass)" equations really make the game feel like a 'Space Program.' Especially in career mode with Revert and quick loading turned off. If you guys to implement this feature, please maybe include a disable button so players like me can pretend to be Rocket scientists.

 

It is for me too! But sometimes I'll have a mission where I'm much more worried about other types of math (Like figuring out where keostationary orbit is...), and then I can't do the mission because I've run out of time calculating. So having a Delta V readout would be really helpful then.

But considering the age of this thread, the devblogs, and other information,

well, KSP will probably never have that in stock.  

[tater]

The points about the difficulty level of KSP being broken are spot-on. KSP is in fact only difficult (in career mode) early on, and precisely because the player lacks parts and capabilities arbitrarily.

Eyeballing a trip to the Mun teaches the player very little. Ditto not knowing if a craft will make orbit for new players. Seeing the DV change in real time in the VAB is in fact incredibly instructive as it shows players (new players, in particular) that their intuitions are not always correct. Watching the DV drop with small additions at the top of the stack is exactly how people learn the tyranny of the rocket equation, and lacking that data just muddies the learning. 

[Wjolcz]

7 hours ago, Razorforce7 said:

Having been around this community for some time I learned that KSP is a barebone platform. It gives you exactly what you need to work with while keeping system requirements low.

Does it though? There isn't even an in-game transfer window planner. The game discourages and punishes doing anything more complex than going to the Mun.

7 hours ago, Razorforce7 said:

My point is that if you start with a Delta-V readout you'll soon have more system and navigational aids added to the vanilla game.
Something that will cripple KSP since it loads everything directly into RAM, which is stupid btw. And since it's not to difficult to download a megabyte or two even with 64kbps in the sahara dessert I see no reason to make it more available by adding it to stock KSP.

This is just... What? I don't follow the logic here. There's literally nothing to load from RAM since the UI windows are already in the game (like it is with KER). Unless SQUAD went with new textures for each UI window/widget (which is something I hope they won't do) there would be only code to "load".

Besides, having more tools and aids is a good thing. It encourages complexity. Right now the game punishes the player for being creative because of how barebones it is.

Are people who say things like this even playing this game or just trolling? I seriously can't tell.

Edited April 14, 2017 by Veeltch

[sh1pman]

Patched conics, maneuver nodes, navball and SAS ruin all the fun! Real players don't need them, KSP is all about eyeballing stuff! Right?

[Little Green Mensch]

On April 14, 2017 at 4:32 PM, sh1pman said:

Patched conics, maneuver nodes, navball and SAS ruin all the fun! Real players don't need them, KSP is all about eyeballing stuff! Right?

My impression was that KSP is about iterative design, the hilarity of kabooms, and moar boosters/struts.

That said, there's really no reason -not- to have a delta-v readout in the game.  Presumably, like the engineer's report that was added in 1.0, players that don't want to use it can hide the UI and ignore it.

A transfer window and alarm clock should also be in the stock game - it's hard to run multiple missions otherwise.

While, yes, everyone can "do the math" longhand (or via a spreadsheet, for true sophisticates), forcing them to do so adds nothing to gameplay.

[Jimmidii]

If they do add delta-v to the game, I'd make it so that your delta-v readout in flight mode only updates while you have a Kerbnet connection to KSC, or a connection to an Engineer Kerbal, or have a high level probe core on board.

[Bornholio]

Just dV listed in contrast on fuel bar.  I'll still use more mods.  I what thinking that dV needed is listed for maneuvers but not for fuel supply.  Not like they don't have plenty of example code.  Cars have had range estimation built in for decades.

Same what I have is that we must go into IVA for radar altimeter.  Or swap to map mode to get PE/AP information instead of main.

Real space programs have pork chop plots and pre-computed maneuvers and ops/engineers looking at data, supercomputers calculating information.