A few observations after starting a new career

[xcorps]

I started a new career today just for the heck of it.

1) Early career mode is a lot more fun when you have some knowledge of what's going on. I managed to make a launch that passed through Mun and Minmus SOI and splashed down on Kerbin making just one adjustment burn of about 90 d/v after I entered Mun's SOI to get into a terminal orbit with Kerbin . Unfortunately, the payload was too heavy for the parachute and I lost all the science.

2) Probes should be the beginning command module, then capsules.

3) Electrical support should unlock earlier. I made a flyby of Mun and Minmus with no power because you just can't put enough power on a rocket until panels unlock. Then it's a cascade that makes power superfluous. Too hard, then too easy.

4) Wheels should unlock with the fuselage. Either unlock fuselage with 90 science, or unlock wheels with 45 science. Launching a plane from vertical just makes no sense at all.

5) You should be able to open ships made in the hanger or the VAB without having to move the craft files or make subassemblies. (Maybe... That might get confusing after a while)

6) There needs to be an ingame biome map of Kerbin. Doing a few flyby missions of Mun and Minmus (etc) should unlock an ingame biome map as well.

7) The diminishing returns for craft that visit another body are too steep. You should get a minimum of 5-10 science until you hit a cap of say 250.

All in all, I'm actually having more fun with the early parts than I was with the bigger stuff in my last career.

[SRV Ron]

Kerbals didn't follow the real history of the space program.

1. Their program started out with manned flight.

2. with the probe launches later. Career reflects that history.

3. Extra battery technology came later in Kerbal history. With proper power management, Mun and Minmus orbit and return is easily done in Career.

4. Aircraft, like probes, came later in Kerbal history.

5. You can place ships in Ships/VAB of the root folder and they will appear in all saves of your game.

6. Others have develop those maps but might be an idea for future updates.

7. Career is still in development. Give it time.

You can always hack Career mode to unlock everything, then play the game starting with the parts you think should be unlocked first.

Enjoy. There are mods and sandbox as well as setting your own goals.

[Superfluous J]

1) Early career mode is a lot more fun when you have some knowledge of what's going on.

I agree, though I was reading up on it a lot and never had the "How the heck do I do this" experience. From watching some YouTubers struggle, I don't think I missed anything

2) Probes should be the beginning command module, then capsules.

This is a hot-button topic. I personally see why they did it the way they did it, but would like the option. I'm personally working on a "better than starting manned" type tech tree that doesn't require you to use all the mods that it requires, and I'm working out right now how to not get manned capsules until you've done at least a couple unmanned missions.

3) Electrical support should unlock earlier. I made a flyby of Mun and Minmus with no power because you just can't put enough power on a rocket until panels unlock. Then it's a cascade that makes power superfluous. Too hard, then too easy.

I agree on the last part but not the first. My favorite run through the game I forced myself to only unlock one node per mission. My favorite time was the period between unlocking the basic solar panel (which was glorious) and the multiple missions before unlocking the upgrades.

4) Wheels should unlock with the fuselage. Either unlock fuselage with 90 science, or unlock wheels with 45 science. Launching a plane from vertical just makes no sense at all.

There should be a node with all the basic stuff needed to fly a plane. Period. We have that for a rocket, why not for a plane?

5) You should be able to open ships made in the hanger or the VAB without having to move the craft files or make subassemblies. (Maybe... That might get confusing after a while)

I agree. There's a great mod called SceneJumper that does just that and I love it. Like all good utility mods

6) There needs to be an ingame biome map of Kerbin. Doing a few flyby missions of Mun and Minmus (etc) should unlock an ingame biome map as well.

I don't know how I feel about this. There already kind-of is one. Just a casual observation of Kerbin reveals a good half dozen biomes, and Mun has even more. Minmus is a bit trickier.

What I'd like is - if there ever is an in-game biome map, you have to find a biome before it shows you where it is. That way, you don't instantly see where all the biomes are but once you find a biome (Say, get a surface sample from it) your scientists can deduce the other areas that are similar enough to not bother going back to.

7) The diminishing returns for craft that visit another body are too steep. You should get a minimum of 5-10 science until you hit a cap of say 250.

I don't mind at all having one mission finish off an area. I don't want to have to go back a dozen times to get my science. That sounds a bit grindy.

All in all, I'm actually having more fun with the early parts than I was with the bigger stuff in my last career.

Agreed. My favorite part is trying to figure out how to get places with super limited tech. I keep trying to find ways to extend that. Currently I'm playing with a modified science config that only grants me about 1/4 the science you'd normally get. (Shameless Plug: Science Limiter)

[Xavven]

I started a new career today just for the heck of it.

1) Early career mode is a lot more fun when you have some knowledge of what's going on. I managed to make a launch that passed through Mun and Minmus SOI and splashed down on Kerbin making just one adjustment burn of about 90 d/v after I entered Mun's SOI to get into a terminal orbit with Kerbin . Unfortunately, the payload was too heavy for the parachute and I lost all the science.

2) Probes should be the beginning command module, then capsules.

3) Electrical support should unlock earlier. I made a flyby of Mun and Minmus with no power because you just can't put enough power on a rocket until panels unlock. Then it's a cascade that makes power superfluous. Too hard, then too easy.

4) Wheels should unlock with the fuselage. Either unlock fuselage with 90 science, or unlock wheels with 45 science. Launching a plane from vertical just makes no sense at all.

5) You should be able to open ships made in the hanger or the VAB without having to move the craft files or make subassemblies. (Maybe... That might get confusing after a while)

6) There needs to be an ingame biome map of Kerbin. Doing a few flyby missions of Mun and Minmus (etc) should unlock an ingame biome map as well.

7) The diminishing returns for craft that visit another body are too steep. You should get a minimum of 5-10 science until you hit a cap of say 250.

All in all, I'm actually having more fun with the early parts than I was with the bigger stuff in my last career.

I agree with pretty much everything here.

I'd like to add that some technology that is obviously simple should unlock earlier, like ladders, large nosecones, and batteries.

After about three times through career mode, I can say that the Advanced Rocketry node is extremely lackluster with the radial engine and FL-T800 tank. I hardly ever use the radial engine, and I can make a FL-T800 tank by stacking two FL-T400 tanks.

There should be another level after Very Heavy Rocketry where all the NASA SLS parts get unlocked, costing at least 1100 science, maybe more in the ballpark of 3000 science. Heavy Rocketry and Very Heavy Rocketry should revert back to 0.23.0 levels.

In general, I think engines should be moved farther down the tech tree and require more science points, and adapters should be moved towards the beginning and cost less. The Cubic Octagonal Strut should not be a more advanced technology than the LV-N nuclear engine...

[Jouni]

After about three times through career mode, I can say that the Advanced Rocketry node is extremely lackluster with the radial engine and FL-T800 tank. I hardly ever use the radial engine, and I can make a FL-T800 tank by stacking two FL-T400 tanks.

It was more useful before 0.23.5. With the old wobbly joints, halving the number of fuel tanks was a significant improvement. I also had some lifter designs with a Poodle at the core and radial engines as boosters. They were a bit more powerful than the traditional early-career triple stacks, but now they are pointless, as we get the Skipper already from Heavy Rocketry.

The cubic octagonal strut is pretty much where it belongs. It's an extremely useful and powerful part, and having it would just spoil the fun in the low-tech part of the game.

[ArmchairGravy]

1-4 are solved by my 3rd landing (Mun orbit).

5 is solved with subassemblies.

6- one polar orbit will net every biome except badlands. Use ScanSat if you're really jonesing for a map.

7- how much can one really learn from the vessel? Experiments and instruments are for science. Vessels are to get them there.

The tree forces goal prioritization and does a reasonable job of it. It's also very easy to storm the tree to unlock the mid-tier stuff in 4 launches. 1) atmosphere 2) polar orbit 3) Mun orbit 4) Minmus orbit. 3 & 4 can be done with the same ship design.

[Jouni]

7- how much can one really learn from the vessel? Experiments and instruments are for science. Vessels are to get them there.

It's a tech tree, not a science tree. It would make more sense to unlock new nodes after flying succesfully to new places, instead of doing some random measurements.

[ArmchairGravy]

It's a tech tree, not a science tree. It would make more sense to unlock new nodes after flying succesfully to new places, instead of doing some random measurements.

What do you spend to unlock tech nodes, tech points or science points? Also, random measurements don't work nearly as effectively as doing specific measurements at specific places. Again we're back to goal prioritization. Do you want to go farther/faster or do you want to get more science from the places you can reach with smaller craft? Either way you're making a choice until you've advanced far enough to do whatever.

Edited May 3, 2014 by ArmchairGravy

[xcorps]

What I'd like is - if there ever is an in-game biome map, you have to find a biome before it shows you where it is. That way, you don't instantly see where all the biomes are but once you find a biome (Say, get a surface sample from it) your scientists can deduce the other areas that are similar enough to not bother going back to.

I could dig that if you could find it from a low orbit.

It's also very easy to storm the tree to unlock the mid-tier stuff in 4 launches.

Not for a new player it isn't.

With proper power management

There is no power management. Probes and capsules have a fixed drain rate. If you can't fit enough batteries on early launches, you run out of juice rather quickly. So if you want to run probes, you either wait for solar panels or you make a ship with a bunch of empty fuel tanks to store a bunch of batteries that are going to die anyway.

[regex]

2) Probes should be the beginning command module, then capsules.

No. This is Kerbal Space Program, not Probe Space Program or Human History Space Program. Mod your game if you want it otherwise.

As for the rest of your points, can't really argue.

E:

There is no power management. Probes and capsules have a fixed drain rate. If you can't fit enough batteries on early launches, you run out of juice rather quickly. So if you want to run probes, you either wait for solar panels or you make a ship with a bunch of empty fuel tanks to store a bunch of batteries that are going to die anyway.

Turn off your SAS, then your capsules won't take power. Probes shouldn't launch without solar panels.

[Jouni]

What do you spend to unlock tech nodes, tech points or science points?

Some random points gained from crew reports, EVA reports, and surface samples. Career mode is much better, if you ignore science experiments and biomes.

[LethalDose]

I think the OP has some very legitimate points. There are lots of situations where, by the time you've achieved a tech node, you no longer need the parts unlocked by the tech, or other parts coming horridly out of order. Before the ARM pack, you got the Poodle before the Skipper... which was bizzare, since it made getting the Poodle into orbit (where it's designed to be used) a real headache. This has been resolved by adding the Skipper to same same node as the poodle. Getting the the science lab a tier prior to docking ports, and on a separate research line. There are other examples as well. But overall, IMO there feels like there are right ways to advance through the tech tree, and very very wrong ways to advance through the tree, and wrong ways aren't clear at the points where the decisions are made.

To me, it looks like they they created the tech tree, gave the nodes names, then assigned the parts to the locations that best fit the names. This is totally back@$$ward from how a tech tree should be designed. The order that parts become useful should be determined first, then the nodes should be arranged in a way that unlocks the parts in that order. Maybe that's what actually happened, and I tend to progress through the tree in an odd way.

Ultimately, this is a balance issue, and therefore just needs to be addressed prior to the final release. But the fact that it exists in this state currently seems, to me, further evidence that the devs just didn't understand some fundamental concepts of game system design.

Whatever the reason of it, there are plenty of places where the tech tree as it stands feels awkard in cumbersome. Again, I just hope it gets fixed before the final release.

One more time, everything above is personal opinion. I'm not attacking the devs.

Edited May 3, 2014 by LethalDose

[Zylark]

I'm sure the devs are having more than one late-lunch-to-early-dinner meetings, where balancing are the topic of some intense discussion. Not least considering that soon enough all those parts will come with a price-tag attached and your available funds will be restricted by your prior efforts.

As it is, the tech-tree isn't much of a challenge to whiz through. So what order stuff comes in isn't that big a deal - for now. My biggest "gripe" with the current (stock) tech tree isn't so much the order you get various parts, but rather the lack of later high-end near-future tech. Once you've gone methodical to the job and done Mun and Minmus, and perhaps a fly-by of Duna, everything is unlocked.

[SRV Ron]

There is no power management. Probes and capsules have a fixed drain rate. If you can't fit enough batteries on early launches, you run out of juice rather quickly. So if you want to run probes, you either wait for solar panels or you make a ship with a bunch of empty fuel tanks to store a bunch of batteries that are going to die anyway.

1. Do NOT use probes until you unlock solar panels.

2. Proper power management applies to capsules only. With the SAS off, they will not use any battery power. Flights to Mun and back are easily done with plenty of power reserve even when the upper stage engine is a generator lacking LV-909

And, don't transmit unless you have a generator powered engine running or have solar panels.

[Sof]

The main gripe I have is the way that plane parts are unlocked. Spending science on the middle tree is a waste of time early on. You gain nothing useful (after the first set of flaps) that could help with the science progression.

[Mipe]

Indeed, it feels like little thought was given to the part placement in tech tree. Perhaps I should sit down and try to something up with something more practical... But then there already are alternative tech trees around.

[John FX]

I get the impression that the tech tree will get overhauled when we get contracts. As with any new feature, you make it, it gets put into the wild and then you get told about everything that isn`t right so you get a chance to fix it.

With hope, SQUAD have listened to everyone moan about the tech tree and it will get fixed soon.

[bigyihsuan]

There should be another level after Very Heavy Rocketry where all the NASA SLS parts get unlocked, costing at least 1100 science, maybe more in the ballpark of 3000 science. Heavy Rocketry and Very Heavy Rocketry should revert back to 0.23.0 levels.

Ludicrously Heavy Rocketry.

[ioexcept]

My son turned me on to this simulator. Been addicted ever since - haven't done anything in the sandbox, career mode only - I'm a game-grinding junkie. My only comment is that there is not really a way to sustain science. I'm stuck at the 550 branch ...

[xcorps]

1. Do NOT use probes until you unlock solar panels.

2. Proper power management applies to capsules only. With the SAS off, they will not use any battery power. Flights to Mun and back are easily done with plenty of power reserve even when the upper stage engine is a generator lacking LV-909 And, don't transmit unless you have a generator powered engine running or have solar panels.

My point is that solar panels should unlock earlier, even if they are less effective than what we have now. Solar panels were put on Vanguard I in 1958. It transmitted for 7 years. What's the point in having a part that you can't use because you don't have another part to complement it? And by the time you unlock solar panels, you've invalidated the first satellite altogether, because you have unlocked the second design.

It's not just an "upgrade" to power supply, it's a minimum requirement. Using engines to generate power to charge batteries is a work-around, not good design. The progression is skewed.

[Vanamonde]

This discussion of the game's development has been moved to the Development Discussions sub-forum.

[Strikerklm96]

To put it simply, I have independently discovered and agree with everything OP said for exactly those reasons.

[SpaceGremlin]

No. This is Kerbal Space Program, not Probe Space Program or Human History Space Program.

To build off this point, the majority of the technology on the tech tree is implied to already exist on Kerbin. According to the tooltips Jeb owns his own junkyard that he supplies the KSC with and Rockomax is a large corporation. The kerbals can take a shortcut to manned flight because they don't have to do all the inventing that NASA or Roscosmos did in real life. Right now, paying "science" for parts is a little counter-intuitive, it would be more plausible that the kerbals at the KSC are selling their data to get the funding they need to buy Rockomax parts, etc. Hopefully 0.24 adds some depth to this.

Given the level of tech already existing on Kerbin, I'm sure kerbals have already landed on the Mun and sent probes to other worlds before Jeb, Bill, and Bob decided they wanted to go to space. Its just that right now, we don't have any content in the game that supports the "lore" in the part descriptions (which I would assume is canon). Except maybe the Armstrong memorial, I mean, someone had to put that up there.

[Justin Kerbice]

Interesting but... waste of time too, what people seems to forgot is career mode is yet an early draft of what it should be (unless I'm completely wrong, it more looks like "mmm... doing this this and this as this for now, we'll see what we could do with it later" than a very carefully made and thoroughly planned career as the meaningless tech tree suggest). It could also mean "doing this so bad than there should be at least one people in the community will do something good we could use".

And if I'm wrong and if it's really the final release of it, please someone from squad tell me so.