It's in alpha, The fallback excuse

[Corw]

From what I know, there are no horrible game breaking bugs right now. By your criteria you could smack it with a 1.0 rubber stamp and call it a day. But it would still be unfinished in features

[Javster]

I found people here so easily to be defensive when someone mentioned something about devnote. It is a good channel for game developer to show player how hard and well they are doing. I read it every week and try to translate it into Chinese so some players on the other side of the planet can also know what is going on in game development. But many times, I found what I really need to do was focusing on the first paragraph which written by Harv. That part contained important information about update. What about the other parts? People care little about it. I am not expecting a changelog, it would be too much. But I am hoping those people who just wrote 1 or 2 lines in the devnote could write more. Seriously? What you spent one week to do worthed just one sentence? A kid can do better in his diary.

They really could expand a lot on the devnotes. And also, stuff like this:

Very sad because Mexico’s elimination from the World Cup

taking a few minutes to blankly stare at the wall and internally weep for Mexico’s match against the Netherlands

is completely useless. This is about what you've been working on, not some crummy (unfortunately worldwide) sports tournament.

[Red Iron Crown]

I bought into KSP fairly early (just before the second price hike) and I knew it was a bit of a risk. The game wasn't as popular then as it is now, it was much further from being feature complete, it was much, much buggier, and the ToS clearly laid out that Squad could stop development at any time and the current version would be the last one (which seemed much more possible then than now). So there was a chance that I would buy in and development would stop. Even though that's fair according to the ToS, I think everyone buying KSP is looking toward the future of the game and expecting development to continue.

That said, I don't care that updates take longer than they once did (expected as the game becomes more complex). I don't care that the developers have become more reticent about the roadmap or how development is going. I don't care too much that the next update might be the last (though I would be disappointed). The reason I don't care about those things is that the game is already great, and has absorbed my attention like few other games have. Is it perfect or finished? No, not even close. But even in its imperfect and incomplete current form, it's still one of my favorite games of all time, and if development stopped today I would keep playing, likely for a long time to come.

So, for me at least, it doesn't matter what the roadmap looks like or if there even is one; all the stuff Squad adds in updates only makes a great game even better. The dev notes are a nice peek into how the next version is coming along and I look forward to reading them every week, but it wouldn't matter to me much if they stopped doing them altogether.

[Victus]

They really could expand a lot on the devnotes. And also, stuff like this:

is completely useless. This is about what you've been working on, not some crummy (unfortunately worldwide) sports tournament.

This is a very narrow-minded view, if the developer had something more to say he'd say it, however I was happy to know they enjoy football as I also love the sport.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Vanamonde
Off topic sports argument excised. Please stick to the topic of the thread.

[Vindelle_Sunveam]

Discussing the world cup :

I agree with Red Iron Crown : I bought the game a feuw days after the last people that will get all DLCs for free (shame on me, I am so late) and would not even be mad at squad for aborting developpement. I'd be very upset, but would also recognize it is fair game. I read the TOS AND bought the game afterwards, so I accepted the deal.

On the other hand, KSP is so mod friendly that I'm not even worried about the community dying after wards.

Even more on topic :

As surely said before : we don't say that it is ok to have bugs because it is in "alpha", but we aknowledge that it is in "alpha" because it is far from being complete.

[Cmdr. Arn1e]

Well, that's a new way my mobile 'net messes up...

But anyway, yeah, I know some people dislike computer games, but that doesn't mean I go to a football forum and start talking about KSP to anyone who would listen!

I know the Dev's like a bit of football, and so do many users of the forums, so I don't mind the football stuff going on, but I can ignore it pretty easily by concentrating on the Jool-5 mission (until I finish it) or another challenge...

/offtopic

I have certainly got my moneys worth out of this game, and although I think it would be nice to get a few more screenshots (teasers, WIP's) from the dev team, I'm not too bothered about geting hyped over the next release - it will be here whenever, and I still have this lovely, sometimes breathtaking, game to play that I know will just continue to get better and better

Edited July 7, 2014 by Cmdr. Arn1e

[Tuareg]

Things take time Puddin, it's a long process, I really don't know what else can be said, the game just isn't finished yet.

It's in development, we all have to put up with that until Squad release 1.0

what will never happen. what i guess is development will end around V0.45 5 years by now due to not enough sales...

[Red Iron Crown]

what will never happen. what i guess is development will end around V0.45 5 years by now due to not enough sales...

I expect it to go 1.0 long before it gets to 0.45.

[Sky_walker]

what will never happen. what i guess is development will end around V0.45 5 years by now due to not enough sales...

Well, their sales model is not substainable in a long term, and I think they're aware of that - that's why so often you see "download a mod" instead of "we'll implement it in future, perhaps as an expansion pack" - TBH: I don't even think they actually are going to achieve v.1.0 as it was planned while ago - most likely at some point they'll simply settle down with "it's good enough", change the version number from 0.XX to 1.0 and jump to the new project.

This is so very pointless, this is definitely the wrong forum for Football discussion anyway. I should have known better, really.

Yep.

[Vonar]

I should remind people that you paid for the privilege of testing a incomplete product. Squad has no obligation of adding any particular content no matter how vocal the community is about it, and in the case of resources I'm willing to have that axed if it was a grindy boring system and I am looking forward to multiplayer and trolling my friends creations much more then I ever looked forward to mining. I don't want to go digging for ore(s) and drilling for multiple kinds of fuel(s) to build rockets, and if I do feel the need of adding that kind of difficulty later on there's always the option of Kethane or I can play minecraft.

[adge]

All comments about my ego aside...

I do think a little more information and clarity would be appreciated, however it isn't something I find offputting, or something that worries me.

As for the offending dev line:

It was levity. Get over it. Why do people have to get so self righteous?

[Superfluous J]

My sig says it all (and more, but let's focus here)

"It's in Alpha" is not an excuse. It's an objective assessment. It's not my fault it continues to be relevant.

[John FX]

The main reason people respond to a complaint with "It's an alpha" is because the problem is never described or handled in the proper manner. To whit, people need to learn how to file a proper bug report.

Start with the nomeclature of the bug. What does it affect, and how? What is the mechanism that causes it? Can it be replicated on command? What is the severity level of this bug? What do you suggest as a way of resolving it? If you do not know how to resolve it, how do you work around it? How effective is the workaround? And of course, detail, detail, detail.

Just about every instance of the "It's an alpha" response was in return to a generalized gripe that provided little to none of the above. I call that a fair use of the comment. The best gripe is an articulate, specific, productive gripe. A generalized moan and/or groan deserves a general answer.

That's how I see it, anyway.

I agree. The last time I tried to post a bug I provided a very good description of the bug, when it occurs, what reliably causes it, how to exploit it to provide unfair advantage, showed it was in vanilla KSP and suggested a workaround for the code

I was first told "It`s in alpha, what do you expect" then "that`s not a bug " then "That`s not a bug and we have known about it for a long time and so it will never get fixed" then "Ok, that is a bug but it`s not very serious, we have known about it for a long time (but it has never been reported on the bug tracker)" then "It`s a bug and actually it`s unfixable"

It was a minor bug that looked like a long known bug but which had different behaviour and could not be caused by the reasoning I was being told. I could see it was not the same bug but not many other people could and those said it was unfixable.

It was a real struggle wading through all that just to post a bug. Not to try and get the bug fixed, just to post a minor bug (with full knowledge that it was very minor and would probably be last in the queue to get fixed but even minor bugs need posting) and simply be allowed to post a bug without being told it`s not a bug or it`s unfixable or stuff along the lines of why are you bothering?

So I forgot forum bug reporting and signed up in the bugtracker and posted the bug there (and was told very similar things, unfixable, not a bug etc)

Anyway the `unfixable not even a bug nothing can be done about it` bug got fixed in the last update once it actually was placed on the bugtracker...

I`m glad I bothered but it was an uphill struggle against the tide of posts trying to dissuade me from initially even recognizing the bug or posting it on the tracker.

Stiil, now the `unfixable` bug *has* been fixed at least I know I was right and all the dissenting voices were wrong so there is that.

I think what I am saying is that there are pressures from the community due to the game being in alpha to ignore or accept bugs and other things which would not be accepted in a full finished game (and rightly so) but it is being taken too far and active discouragement is applied to those simply trying to point out that there are bugs, what they are and how to fix them.

So I partly agree with the OP and partly not.

SQUAD is doing a great job for their first game, like all parents they are learning how to bring up their first baby by trial and error. (a little more communication would be nice)

The community has an odd view of bugs and how to react to people who mention them though...

My sig says it all (and more, but let's focus here)

"It's in Alpha" is not an excuse. It's an objective assessment. It's not my fault it continues to be relevant.

This (your sig) has been on my mind since this thread started. I think the issue comes from some people using it as an excuse.

It`s a very good reason to not get upset or act entitled but it`s no reason to ignore bugs n stuff.

Edited July 7, 2014 by John FX

[Sky_walker]

I do think a little more information and clarity would be appreciated, however it isn't something I find offputting, or something that worries me.

Related: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/84843-About-suggestions/page3

(includes some comments from moderators)

I agree. The last time I tried to post a bug I provided a very good description of the bug, when it occurs, what reliably causes it, how to exploit it to provide unfair advantage, showed it was in vanilla KSP and suggested a workaround for the code

I was first told "It`s in alpha, what do you expect" then "that`s not a bug " then "That`s not a bug and we have known about it for a long time and so it will never get fixed" then "Ok, that is a bug but it`s not very serious, we have known about it for a long time (but it has never been reported on the bug tracker)" then "It`s a bug and actually it`s unfixable"

Classic reaction from a companies filled with people who have little to no experience working in a professional environment.

So I forgot forum bug reporting and signed up in the bugtracker and posted the bug there (and was told very similar things, unfixable, not a bug etc)

Anyway the `unfixable not even a bug nothing can be done about it` bug got fixed in the last update once it actually was placed on the bugtracker...

I`m glad I bothered but it was an uphill struggle against the tide of posts trying to dissuade me from initially even recognizing the bug or posting it on the tracker.

In case noone did it yet - thank you for spending your personal free time to improve this game for everyone

Edited July 7, 2014 by Sky_walker

[Red Iron Crown]

...bug reporting...

I've seen some of the same phenomenon. Some people seem to take a bug report as a criticism of the game or Squad, which is a bit silly IMO. Good on you for keeping on it.

[-RanZ-]

Let me Quote the best response in this thread...

I'm going to have to stop you there, indeed you paid for a product but you paid for it as it was when you bought it. Nowhere does Squad give their word that it will be finished. In fact when you look at the terms of service you agree to when purchasing the game it says:

(full terms of service available here.

This of course doesn't say or even imply that the game won't be finished, but my point here is merely that you did not buy a full game, nor did you 'invest' in one. You paid for KSP as it was at the time you bought it, and nothing else

Squad owes you nothing... you did not 'invest' in anything, you bought early access to a game and they are under no obligation what so ever to do any more updates. Stop whining, enjoy the game, get off you high horses. Seriously, some people need to go outside and see the sun, get a girlfriend, do something else instead of sit in front of a computer screen for 1000+ hours on a game.

[Superfluous J]

It`s a very good reason to not get upset or act entitled but it`s no reason to ignore bugs n stuff.

Completely agreed. As others have said (and far better) in this very thread, there are two types of "bug reports."

There are detailed reports of something that went wrong, or was unexpected, or the poster thinks should be different in some specific way. The poster details what happened or what in their opinion should be changed and gives examples. These threads frequently blossom into worthwhile discussions. At least for the first few pages until someone starts yelling about how the devs only talk about Football or something.

Then there are the thread equivalents of "ZOMG Notch Squad broke my game!" These will get the "It's in Alpha. Suck it up and restart" from me every time.

[ScopusAurelius]

We've gotten what we paid for. I am pleased with my purchase. People are bleating about not getting what they expected. I suggest a bit of soul-searching regarding "expectations," and a more reasoned approach to spending money if one is having an actual EMOTIONAL REACTION to having to wait for additional content/updates. If absolutely no further work were done on the game, we have still gotten what we paid for (and I would still be pleased).

Also, while it is common on this forum for the members to dish out the "alpha, don'tcha know" reason, I haven't seen Squad use it much (except in readme files at update to avoid all the heavy-mod users crying over broken save files).

[allmhuran]

Then there are the thread equivalents of "ZOMG Notch Squad broke my game!" These will get the "It's in Alpha. Suck it up and restart" from me every time.

I see the "it's alpha" comment on many threads that raise legitimate concerns. They may not be fully fledged, every i dotted and every t crossed bug reports - but these are players on a forum, not official testers being paid to fill out bug report forms. They provide a lead for actual paid testers to follow up on. If ten people make the same complaint, even if those complaints lack detail, then there's clearly something to be looked at.

In any case, you know you don't have to reply to a post that you think is "just a whinge". You can just let it slide off into obscurity. What goal, other than some kind of self-gratifying embiggening of one's e-peen, is accomplished by providing an inflammatory response to what you consider to be an unconstructive complaint?

[Ted]

Let's throw out the "alpha/beta/gold" analogy altogether for a moment. Let's think of KSP as Sandbox-complete, Scope-complete and Complete. At the moment, and since 0.18, KSP has been Sandbox-complete. This means that all the base gameplay mechanics we want in Sandbox Mode are implemented, however they still have room for refinement and improvements to each feature. We're now in between Sandbox Completion and Scope Completion. Scope Completion is where all the main features that we want in the game are implemented, with room still left for minor additions, refinements, improvements and bug fixes. Now, that's KSP's Development on a macro scale, on a micro scale it's much more dynamic and, as we saw from the initial round of 0.24 Experimentals, incredibly dependant on the feedback, via the conduit of the Experimental Testers, from the Community.

That actually brings me to a tangential point that I'd like to quickly discuss. I see a surprising number of people complaining that they've paid to play/test the game and thus the fact that 'secret' teams of people that get it early due to some sort of corrupt selection process is unfair. Firstly, and this has been covered by others, you paid for the game as-is, you didn't buy the game on a promise of testing content right from the developer's keyboards (and if you had, then that would be very troublesome for pretty much everyone involved). I'm sure we're all pretty well-educated on that point by now, so I'll move on.

Secondly, the only two Teams that get to test KSP are the Experimental and QA Teams, respectively. They're very much public and we tell you exactly what is going on in them via the Dev Notes. The other Teams that exist that receive preview access are media-related and have their own jobs to do for that (I'm not massively familiar with their day-to-day activities). As we can see, no-one really gets preview access to KSP to just play around, other than maybe the Moderators, but they tend to be far too busy pepper-spraying taking care of the Forums. Furthermore, as Vanamonde previously pointed out, the Experimental builds can be constantly changing in terms of build stability and feature stability, so if one's goal was to simply use their preview access to play the game, they'd have a hard time not reporting any issues or at least providing feedback.

Finally, neither of the Teams are closed off, both will be open for applications post-0.24 and I'll be sure to post the application form all day, erryday.

With the opinion of testing updates before releasing them to the public hopefully successfully countered, I'll get back to discussing KSP's Development.

To try and pin down KSP's development state to any particular one is a mostly pointless task, because you're left with little benefit once you've shoehorned it into the one that satisfies your own point-of-view on the matter. We all know it's not complete, that us folks at SQUAD still have more to add, more to tweak and more to break fix, so why does a - relatively - outdated development state label matter? If you're unsure of our priorities here, we're gunning for Scope Completion, so that should give you an idea of where we want to be.

However, the answer to questions such as "When are we fixing Bug x?" or "When are we adding improvements to feature y?" are still unclear. For the former, the answer is quite a long one. When we're planning out an update, I, with the help of the Community Moderation Team, Experimental Team and QA Team, look over the Forums and the Bug Tracker and highlight pressing issues that should be fixed for the next update. These issues are collated and considered when developing the update and where the Developers have the time and resources to focus on fixing an issue, they will fix the issue. However, it's difficult to narrow down the list of issues to those that we can afford to spend the time investigating and fixing, many of the more serious bugs, in symptoms, tend to be the rarer bugs that have more elaborate reproduction steps and thus take a lot longer to perform the aforementioned actions for. So, there are simply some issues that we can't fix as we don't have the time just yet, though there are many that we do have the time to fix and we do. Conclusively, we don't have a specific aim of when to fix each and every issue, especially not before scope completion, but we do have an aim to be aware of each and every issue and fix them when and where it's possible, be sure of that.

For the second question, the most likely case is - if the feature requires improvements - then it will be performed when we've finished base development on the main features of the game; Scope Completion. It may happen before then, but in nearly all cases, we're all too busy adding new content to the game to simply go back and add improvements to a feature that's already playable. What's the point in ensuring you've got two GPUs, in SLI, that are the best you can build, when your HDD is using IDE or you don't even have a HDD?

Moving on to my next point, which is loosely related to the old one. Something that comes up a lot is that in the case of "feature y", it's perhaps something that here we're happy with or it's perhaps something that we have plans for in the future, but won't go ahead now. They're cases of where Community interaction provides us with a perspective of what the Community wants from the game compared to where the game is going. A significant portion of the opinions I see on the Forums, and in the wider Community, are based on an assumption that what the poster wants and what SQUAD want are the same. In some cases, this is a hasty assumption and a bad one to make. We're all very open about Community suggestions and opinions on the game, but there are limits to what we can take into account when developing KSP, there are some things we don't want KSP to be. A very good case study of this would be the whole "KSP is a simulator, add z!" discussions. We don't want KSP to be a simulator, primarily. We want KSP to have simulation elements, but also have an approachable 'arcadey' side to it, that allows for forgiving gameplay and fun returns on the sheer amount of time you can invest in it. So, to declare that KSP is a simulator currently, would be incorrect and means the discussion then focusses on a tangent that could be avoided.

What I'm not saying here is that you shouldn't suggest things to add to KSP, or tweaks that should be made to certain features; they're incredibly useful and interesting to read. What I am saying is that when you create discussions about KSP, where it's heading, what should be added, what should be tweaked, etc., don't state what you feel KSP is currently as fact. You should consider that perhaps not only what you see KSP as currently is not what everyone sees it as, but what you see KSP becoming is not what the rest of the Community sees it as or even what we see it as. Again though, the point of this part isn't to stop the Community from providing feedback, but to increase awareness as to what constitutes your opinion and what constitutes fact in the context of the establishment of development discussion. I'm hoping as a result, when having these discussions, we can see that everything in KSP's Development (and in fact, life), is not black and white. Proclaiming that the game is in alpha and therefore don't complain is a pretty bad approach to addressing someone's issue, as is saying that the game has been in development for x amount of time and thus change i should be in by now; they're both incredibly black-and-white approaches and a better discussion would be to try and bring about a positive outcome and even assist the poster in understanding the topic better.

Finally, I'll briefly touch upon the topic of not enough being added or development being too slow. I'll just say that since February, I haven't gone a week without having a feature in QA. I don't know about you, but that seems pretty speedy to me..

I've seen some of the same phenomenon. Some people seem to take a bug report as a criticism of the game or Squad, which is a bit silly IMO. Good on you for keeping on it.

I live and breathe bug reports. Written correctly it's the same as saying to a friend "You missed a button on your shirt there, buddy.", a very helpful compilation of information that allows us to make the game better and smoother. Bug reports undoubtedly help us, just ensure you're being objective in them and it's not an opinion piece (they're feedback issues if they are and are a whole other topic).

I really hope I've answered many questions that arose from this thread and helped everyone come to a better understanding about where KSP currently is and where it's going. Feel free to ask any questions about what I've said, I'll answer what I can.

TL;DR: Read it.

Edited July 7, 2014 by Ted

[Superfluous J]

In any case, you know you don't have to reply to a post that you think is "just a whinge". You can just let it slide off into obscurity. What goal, other than some kind of self-gratifying embiggening of one's e-peen, is accomplished by providing an inflammatory response to what you consider to be an unconstructive complaint?

I like to think it's possible if not likely that the poster does not know the post is not constructive. Or that the poster actually feels entitled to have every complaint personally addressed by a Squad employee within 48 hours of it being made. Ignoring this person will not make them go away, but possibly explaining the situation to them will teach them something about how the software development process (at least in this case) works.

And yes. Entitled self righteous jerks sometimes get on my nerves. I'll admit freely that not every post I've ever made was constructive and enlightened. But when someone works for years on something you* paid $15 bucks for, and then you come around and complain that they're lazy and no good and they owe you answers... It's very hard for me to let that go.

*Not YOU, allmhuran. Just a generic person.

[MR4Y]

And yes. Entitled self righteous jerks sometimes get on my nerves. I'll admit freely that not every post I've ever made was constructive and enlightened. But when someone works for years on something you* paid $15 bucks for, and then you come around and complain that they're lazy and no good and they owe you answers... It's very hard for me to let that go.

Yes, you paid 15 bucks for something. I've seen FREE GAMES that have better development road maps, better feature description and, more important, developers that communicate better with their fanbase.

The money you paid or it's amount it's not irrelevant. As a matter of fact, it entitles people to their opinion even more, because they didn't got their cake for free. Not all their opinion will be right, but some will. The problem is that pretty much every criticism towards KSP and it's developers is considered whining. Some people are strung too high on their horses in the arguments that people have no opinion on a game just because it's a new type of game that (theoretically) no one else did before.

[Lheim]

If you've got a problem, outline a specific actionable complaint.

Don't get all fussy and philosophically argumentative about the definitions of alpha, beta, complete. Games these days are ongoingly incomplete - even released ones, so fretting definitions is increasingly pointless.

What you ought to be concerned with is: 1) is the game fun? 2) is the game development ongoing at a reasonable pace? 3) Are they adding things I find fun?

Now, I'm going to assume 1) is true. So your problem lies somewhere with questions 2 or 3.

Narrow your complaint down, get back to us.

Fruitlessly arguing definitions is the definition of philosophy. As far as I'm concerned philosophy is a dirty word.

Edit: I'm going to suggest you re-examine your perception that every complaint is greeted by allegations of 'whining' on this forum. Some are; then again, some complaints are extremely unconstructively phrased - aggressively, arrogantly put out there. Some complaints are greeted with relative public consensus - nearly everybody agrees rovers suck, and that the aerodynamics need changing. What's more important than how this public mass reacts is how the developers act, however - and they continue to add cool things to the game. They have also stated that -after- scope completion is the time to do tweaking to things like aerodynamics and such.

Edited July 7, 2014 by Lheim

[r4pt0r]

Yes, you paid 15 bucks for something. I've seen FREE GAMES that have better development road maps, better feature description and, more important, developers that communicate better with their fanbase.

-snip

but have you invested over a year and more than 1200 forum posts in any of those games? ksp obviously is something special and will continue to be popular. i think these first time devs are doing just fine. the devnotes could use more meat, but they dont HAVE to communicate with us at all. im thankful they do.

all of your posts in every thread are terribly negative. you should watch a classic Jackie Chan movie to lighten your spirits. i suggest "the legend of the drunken master". excellent choreography and it also has witty humor, even if you watch the translated english dubbed version.

Edited July 7, 2014 by r4pt0r

[John FX]

I live and breathe bug reports. Written correctly it's the same as saying to a friend "You missed a button on your shirt there, buddy.", a very helpful compilation of information that allows us to make the game better and smoother. Bug reports undoubtedly help us, just ensure you're being objective in them and it's not an opinion piece (they're feedback issues if they are and are a whole other topic).

This is how I see them too. All i tried to do was post the bug so someone would see it, rate it and (being a very minor bug) put it to the back of the queue but at least it would be on the queue and there would be some documentation of it like how to cause it, how to change what it does, some thoughts about a possible cause and a possible workaround.

Once I got off the forum and went to the actual bugtracker it was much less arduous. SQUAD and the Mods (great band name) were great throughout, my problem was with forum users who descended like flies to nitpick and dissuade.