[0.24.2] Interstellar Lite - Tweakscale Integration [v0.12.3][Sept 7]

[jonrd463]

I can't think of a reason why sabres would be specially affected. The heating just counts the number of cooled and non-cooled intakes and spits out a multiplier for heating. I will look into it though.

Thanks, Wave. I have a feeling it might have to do with a combination of FAR and DRE. Since I'm on a spaceplane kick, I intend to keep those installed. I'm going to take out Interstellar for now, since its features won't really be used by me until I'm further along in my sandbox game at the moment. I'm going for a layered approach of thoroughly colonizing Kerbin's SOI before branching out. I apologize if my earlier post might have seemed a bit whiny, as my frustration with the Sabre is in no way indicative of my feelings towards the mod as a whole. You're doing yeoman's work in keeping it going, and I look forward to using it a bit down the road.

[WaveFunctionP]

Thanks, Wave. I have a feeling it might have to do with a combination of FAR and DRE. Since I'm on a spaceplane kick, I intend to keep those installed. I'm going to take out Interstellar for now, since its features won't really be used by me until I'm further along in my sandbox game at the moment. I'm going for a layered approach of thoroughly colonizing Kerbin's SOI before branching out. I apologize if my earlier post might have seemed a bit whiny, as my frustration with the Sabre is in no way indicative of my feelings towards the mod as a whole. You're doing yeoman's work in keeping it going, and I look forward to using it a bit down the road.

No worries. I am still concerned this is an actual problem. I don't play with b9, so I would be interested if anyone else has run into this specific issue.

[AetherGoddess]

[...] The heating just counts the number of cooled and non-cooled intakes and spits out a multiplier for heating. [...]

Have you considered reversing the way precoolers work, i.e. making them affect attached engines rather then attached intakes? B9 (and SpacePlanePlus, for that matter) have a lot of surface attached intakes that are intended to attach to wings or non-circular body segments that are not suitable for precoolers, where as almost every engine is a circular in-line mount.

[Aedile]

Honestly I really dislike this as compared with the full version. No charged particles, reactors have almost no difference. Generators have almost no difference. I'll stick to the full version, hopefully someone picks it up...

[Aeon-Phoenix]

After playing some more. I've found out that the tweakables from 0.12.2 are pretty broken in the reactor/generator department. Both worked fine in 0.11 without tweaking.

In 0.12.2 the generators always remain on the lowest techlevel in Sandboxmode and the AM reactors allways return to their default value of 8GW output no matter the size or the fact that you have an more advanced techlevel (should be in Sandbox mode). The same counts for the fusion reactors.

I'm not sure about the Radiators. They do not show their type anymore.

After checking the CFGs of the AM reactors i must admit that the new values seem allright. Less antimatter consumption relative to the power output and a more reasonable poweroutput could work. If they would work

[WaveFunctionP]

After playing some more. I've found out that the tweakables from 0.12.2 are pretty broken in the reactor/generator department. Both worked fine in 0.11 without tweaking.

In 0.12.2 the generators always remain on the lowest techlevel in Sandboxmode and the AM reactors allways return to their default value of 8GW output no matter the size or the fact that you have an more advanced techlevel (should be in Sandbox mode). The same counts for the fusion reactors.

I'm not sure about the Radiators. They do not show their type anymore.

After checking the CFGs of the AM reactors i must admit that the new values seem allright. Less antimatter consumption relative to the power output and a more reasonable poweroutput could work. If they would work

Reactors, generator and radiator upgrades were removed. Most of the hidden "numbers just get better" type upgrades were removed.

Resource consumption hasn't really been tuned in any particular way. I just focused on functionality for this release. Resources related stuff will come in the next major version.

AM should be scaling with size just fine.

[Alewx]

Reactors, generator and radiator upgrades were removed. Most of the hidden "numbers just get better" type upgrades were removed.

Resource consumption hasn't really been tuned in any particular way. I just focused on functionality for this release. Resources related stuff will come in the next major version.

AM should be scaling with size just fine.

Sounds like a whole lot of gameplay was removed, hmm maybe I should keep my singleprat upgrade for me.

[forsaken1111]

Sounds like a whole lot of gameplay was removed, hmm maybe I should keep my singleprat upgrade for me.

Nobody is forcing you to use KSPI Lite.

[Aeon-Phoenix]

Reactors, generator and radiator upgrades were removed. Most of the hidden "numbers just get better" type upgrades were removed.

Resource consumption hasn't really been tuned in any particular way. I just focused on functionality for this release. Resources related stuff will come in the next major version.

AM should be scaling with size just fine.

Aha. That means i'm out. many of my designs won't work with these equations anymore. I wish you the best with this mod. But the changes you made are not really for me. Sorry

[Alewx]

Nobody is forcing you to use KSPI Lite.

Did I say anything like that?

[WaveFunctionP]

Sounds like a whole lot of gameplay was removed, hmm maybe I should keep my singleprat upgrade for me.

I'm sorry that you don't enjoy my version, but I hope you actually played it before making a judgement. However, the upgrades I removed aren't gameplay. They are stat inflation, pure and simple. It's not like the only reason you go up the tech tree is to upgrade, the primary motivation is and has always been to unlock parts.

Upgrading isn't all bad, like the quantum vacuum mode or lfo mode for turbojets. And those upgrades will remain for the foreseeable future despite the poor player messaging that upgrades have in the game. I do want to have those upgrades show up as parts in the tech tree or find another solution though.

[Bothersome]

Well, I'm enjoying your version pretty good. I'm currently playing it in Realism Overhaul in career mode. So, I use it as a reward for getting all that research done. And I love that warp drive thingy you done there. It save tons of time but you still gotta work out how to navigate. Just the right touch for early warp drive tech. Using the planets gravity, I can save tons of dV. I still haven't figured out how to make use of some of the other stuff like microwave transmitters and whatnot (I checked it out in a sandbox save). I haven't yet unlock reactors in my career game yet.

[Alewx]

I'm sorry that you don't enjoy my version, but I hope you actually played it before making a judgement. However, the upgrades I removed aren't gameplay. They are stat inflation, pure and simple. It's not like the only reason you go up the tech tree is to upgrade, the primary motivation is and has always been to unlock parts.

Upgrading isn't all bad, like the quantum vacuum mode or lfo mode for turbojets. And those upgrades will remain for the foreseeable future despite the poor player messaging that upgrades have in the game. I do want to have those upgrades show up as parts in the tech tree or find another solution though.

Hey, what is going on? I didn't jugde anyone, or anything. all I did was noticing that it this is what is sounds like to me from what you said.

I just swtiched over to KSPI Lite this weekend as the singlepart was not possible with the old KSPI. Acutually I do not play that much as there is not so much time for it.

So NO I DID NOT SAY that I do not enjoy it. I can tell what my opinion is on that after i played it, but that will take time.

But it is my generall opinion that removing complexity and upgrades is reduction of gameplay, and mid/long time goals for a player.

In my last saves I was so busy with the small things of KSPI in the early techs, that I didn't even reached the further ones. I just was busy playing and enjoying it, and that is the nice thing about KSPI it keeps you busy, but I don't know how that is in KSPIL as I didn't play it.

So I'm not judging it, it is just my opinion on the things that were said.

Also still I think that single part reactor-generator combo will be a great thing, the later it is in the game the more the ppl will run into the same performance problems that we all do, and than it might be a small helper.

If you don't like it, that is totally ok, because Lite is your version of it, and everything is in your hands, I won't argue about that because I'm fine with that. It is still just nothing more than a suggestion from me for you.

I'm really thankful for you repository as it includes the complete project with the csproj files that FractalUKs is lacking, and I'm highly respectful for the work you did already with KSPIL.

I'm not working against anyone.

[undercoveryankee]

I saw a post earlier on here about a MM patch to bring back the values closer to Fractal's. Any news on that?

I've got a set of reactor and radiator numbers based on 0.11 (similar, but with a few changes to take advantage of TweakScale and to keep "original" and "upgraded" versions as separate parts) that I like. I'm currently at the "play for a while with it installed to make sure it's reasonably free of bees" stage. Right now I expect to publish a public beta this coming weekend.

[RoverDude]

I've got a set of reactor and radiator numbers based on 0.11 (similar, but with a few changes to take advantage of TweakScale and to keep "original" and "upgraded" versions as separate parts) that I like. I'm currently at the "play for a while with it installed to make sure it's reasonably free of bees" stage. Right now I expect to publish a public beta this coming weekend.

It pleases me that the 'full of bees' meme is catching on.

[Jovus]

It pleases me that the 'full of bees' meme is catching on.

It's what you get for writing APIs in your code.

[sober667]

I'm sorry that you don't enjoy my version, but I hope you actually played it before making a judgement. However, the upgrades I removed aren't gameplay. They are stat inflation, pure and simple. It's not like the only reason you go up the tech tree is to upgrade, the primary motivation is and has always been to unlock parts.

Upgrading isn't all bad, like the quantum vacuum mode or lfo mode for turbojets. And those upgrades will remain for the foreseeable future despite the poor player messaging that upgrades have in the game. I do want to have those upgrades show up as parts in the tech tree or find another solution though.

Maby somethink Mechjeb style? they have upgrades showed in tech tree by showing parts and write that this funcionality is added to existing parts

[sober667]

I've got a set of reactor and radiator numbers based on 0.11 (similar, but with a few changes to take advantage of TweakScale and to keep "original" and "upgraded" versions as separate parts) that I like. I'm currently at the "play for a while with it installed to make sure it's reasonably free of bees" stage. Right now I expect to publish a public beta this coming weekend.

i will folowy ou to saw it what more will be like in 11-one?

[StevenJ]

Thanks, Wave. I have a feeling it might have to do with a combination of FAR and DRE. Since I'm on a spaceplane kick, I intend to keep those installed. I'm going to take out Interstellar for now, since its features won't really be used by me until I'm further along in my sandbox game at the moment. I'm going for a layered approach of thoroughly colonizing Kerbin's SOI before branching out. I apologize if my earlier post might have seemed a bit whiny, as my frustration with the Sabre is in no way indicative of my feelings towards the mod as a whole. You're doing yeoman's work in keeping it going, and I look forward to using it a bit down the road.

I'm telling you it's you. I'm using KSPI lite, B9 v5, FAR, and DRE and it's fine. Delete the mods and reinstall them. Something went wrong in the process. I never had this issue with B9 precoolers. As long as you don't stick more than one intake ahead of the precooler it's fine. Old patched B9 with Far and DRE plus Wave's patched KSPI worked fine also as long as I didn't do more than one intake to a precooler. Shouldn't have an issue.

[Tingjonki]

When im in the VAB or SHB I can change the fuel for thermal rockets just fine but when I go launch my vehicle I can only use Liquid fuel and Water

anyone else having this problem?

[Taribu]

I'm sure that i am not the first one here who's not that happy with the changes,

i just wanted to say that i've done a quick test and came to the conclusion that i prefer the original stats.

Things surely got a lot simpler, but i enjoyed the complexity.

I want this to be helpful criticism; so i want to be a little more concrete:

Con:

- I haven't gone into detail, but is Helium-3 gone? Couldn't find any tanks. I always powered my fusion reactors using Helium-3. And Tritium doesn't decay anymore. I've build a 2 megaton station only for the purpose of producing helium-3 through tritium decay; i can't do such things anymore.

- Fractal has put so much stress on getting the math for the reactors right(I am not implying that you did things wrong! In fact you did a great job at bringing balance to KSPI). For example, the core temp of the large reactor changed from 15513 to simply 8000. What my point is: All reactors where special in Fractals version, and they were unique. Now there are pretty much all the same but with slightly scaled stats/fuel consumptions.

-The inertial fusion reactors are gone. Now theres only one type of fusion reactor, which again takes the complexity away.

Pro:

- The inline warp drive looks freaking awesome.

- More balance.

- Glowing radiators look great - i don't care about realism if it's only about aesthetics.

Neural:

-Things got simpler.

I know this version is titled with "Lite" so the changes are absolutely acceptable and i really appreciate the work you have done to keep interstellar alive.

I'd just really like it if you or anyone else thinks about working on a original-like successor/update of KSPI

[Aedile]

I'm sure that i am not the first one here who's not that happy with the changes,

i just wanted to say that i've done a quick test and came to the conclusion that i prefer the original stats.

Things surely got a lot simpler, but i enjoyed the complexity.

I want this to be helpful criticism; so i want to be a little more concrete:

Con:

- I haven't gone into detail, but is Helium-3 gone? Couldn't find any tanks. I always powered my fusion reactors using Helium-3. And Tritium doesn't decay anymore. I've build a 2 megaton station only for the purpose of producing helium-3 through tritium decay; i can't do such things anymore.

- Fractal has put so much stress on getting the math for the reactors right(I am not implying that you did things wrong! In fact you did a great job at bringing balance to KSPI). For example, the core temp of the large reactor changed from 15513 to simply 8000. What my point is: All reactors where special in Fractals version, and they were unique. Now there are pretty much all the same but with slightly scaled stats/fuel consumptions.

-The inertial fusion reactors are gone. Now theres only one type of fusion reactor, which again takes the complexity away.

Pro:

- The inline warp drive looks freaking awesome.

- More balance.

- Glowing radiators look great - i don't care about realism if it's only about aesthetics.

Neural:

-Things got simpler.

I know this version is titled with "Lite" so the changes are absolutely acceptable and i really appreciate the work you have done to keep interstellar alive.

I'd just really like it if you or anyone else thinks about working on a original-like successor/update of KSPI

He3, thorium, charged particles are gone as far as I saw, so are generator types etc...

And since I cant get any other version of kspi working for some reason, I guess I'll be just using conventional propulsion from now on.

[Taribu]

Wait a minute,

@WaveFunctionP , didn't you release an experimental fix for KSPI for 0.24.2 earlier? I am searching and searching but i'm failing to find it again. I have just one question:

And are you planning on re-releasing it? There're a lot of people who'd like that, even if it's buggy.

Edit: Just found it :)

Edited September 2, 2014 by Taribu

[Aedile]

Wait a minute,

@WaveFunctionP , didn't you release an experimental fix for KSPI for 0.24.2 earlier? I am searching and searching but i'm failing to find it again. I have just one question:

And are you planning on re-releasing it? There're a lot of people who'd like that, even if it's buggy.

You can find it same place as the lite version, but for some reason last nonlite version is not working for me.

[GreeningGalaxy]

--Warning, MEGAPOST ahead--

Alright, so I finally got this thing installed today and had a poke around in sandbox mode. I have to say, I'm not nearly as deeply disappointed as I was prepared to be from what I'd heard, but I feel like most of the changes made to FractalUK's original version aside from compatibility fixes and such are a rather significant step in the wrong direction. One of the things I like(d) most about KSPI is how insanely complex it could be with all its different systems, resources, and options, and I can't say in any capacity that taking out a good chunk of them improved anything.

My initial test was just a cursory examination and I didn't have time to do anything major or in-depth, so if I'm completely wrong about anything I'm about to say, I'm sorry.

Things I found disappointing:

-Reactor power changes. I admit that I'm not a nuclear engineer and don't know what the real-world power outputs of antimatter or fusion power could potentially be, but I feel that the nerfs on fusion at least (antimatter is a different story since theoretical power output is pretty much limited only by reactor structure, as far as I know) were driven by an attempt to 'balance' the game, rather than make it more realistic. The same goes for the fission reactors, which now seem pretty intense for their sizes. You mentioned that you wanted people to use fission more, which I'm a little puzzled by- If you can build fusion reactors that don't make dangerous waste and use far more common fuels, why would you bother building fission reactors? The answer, of course, is cost and reliability, but I have a hard time believing that fission reactors will ever be serious contenders as far as power-to-mass ratio goes when compared to fusion devices. I'm going to overlook the changes made to the antimatter-initiated reactor, because I have no clue how that works in real life and am not sure where to find someone who does, so I suppose I'll just assume you do.

I'm also not a huge fan of how all the numbers for core temperature, power output etc. are all rounded off to nice round numbers with a bunch of zeros. I realize Kerbals appear to have remarkable precision skills, but having a reactor with a running temperature of exactly 4000 Kelvins is just not realistic.

-Removed resources: Where did helium-3 go? What about thorium? Both of those were completely viable methods of powering reactors in terms of physics, and offered interesting tradeoffs. Frankly, I don't see why removing them was necessary.

-Removed power generation options: I guess I'm a bit unfamiliar with the exact mechanics of how charge particles worked, but it seemed sound enough. The lack of KTEC solid-state generators disappointed me a lot too- I realize we haven't made thermoelectric generators with the same efficiency as Brayton-cycle systems yet, but I have a hard time believing that we never will. If I wanted to be limited to only what's just around the corner, I would probably have gone with Near-Future Technologies instead of KSPI.

-Different types of reactors have different thrust and ISP tradeoffs: To my knowledge, the ISP and thrust of a thermal rocket engine both are dependent on the core temperature of the reactor, and thrust is also affected by how much fuel you can pump through the reactor in a given time interval without lowering its temperature too much. Therefore it would seem that bigger reactors should give you more thrust, but the same core temperature should always give you the same ISP. This is what I'm pretty sure was happening in FractalUK's version, but hardly what I saw in this one with the molten salt/particle bed configurations. Correct me if I'm wrong (as I'm fully expecting to be) on this one, but this seems like yet another game-balance thing that has very little, if any, background in physics.

That's all that jumped out at me at first look, so I'll finish with what I loved about this new version:

-Tweakscale integration: Yes, yes, yes! I am officially in love with this feature. It makes shipbuilding so much smoother now that parts have variable sizes, not to mention the fact that it opens up the possibility for adorably tiny versions of everything I've been building so far, as well as the truly colossal behemoths that I've tried to build in the past, only this time without the same ludicrous part counts. The game loaded quite a lot faster than I expected it to as well, and I imagine that this feature is at least partially responsible.

-Small inline refinery now has resource extractors: This is actually a feature I've been editing into the configs of KSPI's older versions. I like to be able to melt ice and electrolize it into fuel without carrying around something the size of my house. It may take me some time to get used to the new model since my brain now associates that shape and texture with antimatter bottles, but I think it's definitely an improvement.

-Tritium is now tweakable: This is another feature I used to add myself. DT Vista engines and the tiny fusion reactors used to come with their own supplies, yet you weren't allowed to fill the bottles before launch. The new system is much more logical. I didn't actually check to see if tritium breeding from lithium was still in the game, but I heard it was removed; if so, this would seem to be another example of a feature that I would have liked to hang on to in any case.

-Radiator buffs: I guess I like this. It does seem like radiative heat loss to the vacuum would be a pretty slow process, but I don't really know what the performance of graphene would be like at very high temperatures, and would imagine that it would be pretty good. I would still prefer realism over game balance, but if this is at all realistic, I welcome the opportunity to make bigger ships with fewer giant wings.

Overall impressions: Had this been the first version of KSPI I'd ever played, I would probably think very little of it. Having seen the older versions, however, I don't think I can really bond with the simplified and 'balanced' nature of this one. A lot of the new features are leaps and bounds better than their previous arrangements, but I feel like the majority of the fun I've been having with this mod has either been nerfed a little overzealously or removed from the game outright. I realize that it's called "KSPI Lite" but I'm kind of scratching my head about why all the simplification was necessary.

Did someone say that there was a pre-Lite version that works on .24? If so, where is it? I'd kind of like to move back to it.

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