[1.2.2] B9 Aerospace | Release 6.2.1 (Old Thread)

[Alshain]

It should however be FAR/NEAR's job to fix the immediate balancing problems caused by its own aerodynamics changes, not some arbitrary 3rd party mod's, and to my understanding they already do that by specifically adjusting the values of all stock jet engines (and also cutting the thrust of any other airbreathing engines in the game in half). B9's new changes to the stock engines get applied on top of that, so I assume there is some other reason?

So this is why my stock planes suddenly stopped working? I spent 2 hours last night trying to figure that out, I never would have guessed B9 would screw up planes that didn't use B9. Which files is it I need to remove to make my stock parts behave correctly now?

[Kitspace]

Hello

Thank you for the responses once again!

So as I can guess now this weird bug with asymmetric symmetry as I call it is not yet fixed?

http://bugs.kerbalspaceprogram.com/issues/290

That is a pity to hear.

Any ideas when is it going to be fixed? The description there makes me think that it was discovered and reported quite a long time ago. What can I do with the problem until then? Even lots of struts do not seem to help completely.

What do you mean exactly when you say that much more struts are hidden inside the parts?

How is it actually done? Also is there a mod or a plugin of some sort that would let us control whether the part that is generally surface attached to another one will stick on the surface or go inside to some extent?

[Kitspace]

Also what to do if the wing connection is not stiff enough can be ripped off by high aerodynamic loads from some mere aggressive controls or torque inputs quite easily even when enforced with struts?

[Kitspace]

Is there any sort of tutorial for constructing vertical takeoff aircraft? Or some other sort of explanation?

I just do not get what is wrong with them but they just keep being uncontrollable on takeoff and landing.

[forsaken1111]

So this is why my stock planes suddenly stopped working? I spent 2 hours last night trying to figure that out, I never would have guessed B9 would screw up planes that didn't use B9. Which files is it I need to remove to make my stock parts behave correctly now?

Unfortunately the authors have stated several times that they mod for themselves, not for the users. Because this is the way they like it, this is default behavior when you install B9 now.

I think it would be a far better idea to include the stock changes as an optional MM file, but if you want to remove them you must go in and delete the MM file that affects the stock jets.

[Kitspace]

Also the control inputs seem to work just the other way round in pitch channel on low speeds so the stock stability control system makes all the things much worse.

What can the reason for this be?

[Murph]

Also what to do if the wing connection is not stiff enough can be ripped off by high aerodynamic loads from some mere aggressive controls or torque inputs quite easily even when enforced with struts?

More struts, and careful choice of strut positioning. Triangles where the 3rd side is a strut give strength. If it's huge, you'll need the wings braced both fore-aft, and top and bottom several times into the central fuselage. The B9 invisible struts save you from a visual mess.

Lastly, don't try to fly a huge freighter like a fighter, and reduce the speed of your manoeuvres to subsonic (or at least low supersonic).

[Alshain]

Unfortunately the authors have stated several times that they mod for themselves, not for the users. Because this is the way they like it, this is default behavior when you install B9 now.

I think it would be a far better idea to include the stock changes as an optional MM file, but if you want to remove them you must go in and delete the MM file that affects the stock jets.

Ok, but which file is that? Where do I find it?

[Tyren]

I give up. I tried since my last post to get those epic engine plume effects in a compiled .cfg file for stock and nasa working, but i lack the skillz...^^

@Kitspace: where is your center of thrust? in front or behind the CoM? This is one reason that comes to mind. The other one is a conflicting mod which affects aerodynamic behaviour too...asuming i understood you correctly and you speak of your control surfaces.^^

Edit: not aerodynamic behaviour, avionic behaviour...

Edited September 11, 2014 by Tyren

[littlecheese999]

I had that problem until version 5.2.1 too...now its fine. maybe you should try to download the latest version + hotfix from Taverius and reinstall B9 + subplugins from scratch.

Still not working

Also, i tried it on a stock install, it still doesnt work, im on the newest version of KSP and B9 btw, when i try place it, it does have a weird graphical glitch like when 2 parts has phased through each other

Edited September 11, 2014 by littlecheese999

[Taverius]

Unfortunately the authors have stated several times that they mod for themselves, not for the users. Because this is the way they like it, this is default behavior when you install B9 now.

I think it would be a far better idea to include the stock changes as an optional MM file, but if you want to remove them you must go in and delete the MM file that affects the stock jets.

Everybody who mods a game (for free! in our free time!) mods because they see something they want to change.

We do this to make it the game we want to play.

The game we want to play has FAR/NEAR built-in, DRE, life support, and no magical unicorn-pixiedust-and-friendship powered engines that go twice as fast as the fastest turbine engines ever made by man.

If you don't think this is how the game should be, this is the wrong mod for you, because every single part is built around that concept.

[Hurry- Starfish!]

If you dont like it learn to delete MM configs like everyone else....

I know how to do that, that's not a problem. I'm worrying about it causing frustration for others who haven't read through all the changelogs (I'd imagine many people don't) and don't realize what's going on, as Alshain's recent post illustrates. Installing or uninstalling a part mod changing the behaviour of unrelated crafts makes managing mods pretty difficult. ("Okay, I'm gonna uninstall this mod now, I need the RAM and I never used it anyway - wait, why are all of my crafts behaving differently now?")

Which files is it I need to remove to make my stock parts behave correctly now?

Removing B9_Aerospace-Squad_Jet_Balance.cfg from the root B9 folder should do the job.

Ah thanks, that explains the reason I was wondering about. So in other words, I take it you don't want to make your engines stronger at specific aspects than stock for reasons of being OP, and you don't want the stock engines to be all-around solutions that at on par with the specialized B9 ones at their respective specialities. That makes a lot of sense, I'm just kinda concerned about the implications of your solution; because if it was common for part mods to change other parts to fit their balancing system, I'd imagine that the game could quickly become unplayable with multiple mods installed at once, because their changes would either overwrite each other or possibly stack in unpredictable ways.

[Hurry- Starfish!]

So as I can guess now this weird bug with asymmetric symmetry as I call it is not yet fixed?

http://bugs.kerbalspaceprogram.com/issues/290

Oh wow, I never knew about this. Ever since I started using B9 I've wondered why most of my larger planes would keep trying to yaw on their own, suspecting a faulty COM in one of the S2 parts or something, but when I tried narrowing it down by building smaller test crafts, I could never reproduce the problem. That explains a lot.

[Tyren]

Maybe someone should make a big phat warning spot in the OP "changes stock jet engine values!"

/ironic mode off

Back to the real thing...i tested my config for the nasa kerbodyne F1 engine with following values:

@PART[Size3AdvancedEngine] // size3 single
{
//!MODEL_MULTI_PARTICLE
@EFFECTS
{

@running_closed
{

@MODEL_MULTI_PARTICLE
{
@emission,0 = 0.0 0.0
@emission,1 = 0.5 0.0
@emission,2 = 0.7 0.0
@emission,2 = 1.0 0.0
}
@PREFAB_PARTICLE
{
@emission,0 = 0.0 0.0
@emission,1 = 0.5 0.0
@emission,2 = 0.7 0.0
@emission,2 = 1.0 0.0
}
MODEL_MULTI_PARTICLE_PERSIST
{
name = flamethrust
modelName = MP_Nazari/FX/nasaf1
transformName = thrustTransform
emission = 0.0 0.0
emission = 0.05 0.0
emission = 0.75 1.25
emission = 1.0 1.75
speed = 0.0 2.75
speed = 1.0 3.5
energy = 0.0 0.12 // Same for energy
energy = 1.0 0.45 // Same for energy
size = 0.0 0.25 // Rescale the particles to +0%
size = 1.0 0.25 // Rescale the particles to +0%
fixedEmissions = false
offset = -0.2
logGrow
{
density = 1.0 -0.3
density = 0.4 1.0
density = 0.05 10.0
density = 0.005 90.0
}
linGrow
{
density = 1.0 0.0
density = 0.05 0.0
density = 0.005 3.0
density = 0.0 60.0
}
offset
{
density = 1.0 0.0
density = 0.05 0.35
density = 0.0 0.45
}
emission
{
density = 1.0 0.8
density = 0.05 0.8
density = 0.005 0.24
density = 0.0 0.12
}
energy
{
density = 1.0 0.3
density = 0.05 0.15
density = 0.0 0.1
}
size
{
density = 1.0 0.7
density = 0.05 0.7
density = 0.005 0.25
density = 0.0 0.175
}
}

MODEL_MULTI_PARTICLE_PERSIST
{
name = smokethrust
modelName = MP_Nazari/FX/smokebooster2
transformName = thrustTransform
emission = 0.0 0.0 // Curve for emission like stock
emission = 0.07 0.0 // Curve for emission like stock
emission = 0.2 0.4 // Curve for emission like stock
emission = 1.0 1.1 // Curve for emission like stock
energy = 0.0 0.2 // Same for energy
energy = 1.0 1.2 // Same for energy
speed = 0.0 1.0 // And speed
speed = 1.0 0.8 // And speed
grow = 0.0 0.0 // Grow the particles at 0% per seconds ( 0.02 would be 2% )
grow = 1.0 0.11 // Grow the particles at 0% per seconds ( 0.02 would be 2% )
scale = 0.0 1.0 // Rescale the emitters to +0%
scale = 1.0 1.0 // Rescale the emitters to +0%
offset = 0.0 0.0 // Move the particle emitter away from its default position by x meters
offset = 1.0 0.5 // Move the particle emitter away from its default position by x meters	
size = 0.0 2.0 // Rescale the particles to +0%
size = 1.0 2.5 // Rescale the particles to +0%

renderMode = "Billboard" // Render mode : Billboard / SortedBillboard / HorizontalBillboard / VerticalBillboard / Stretch
collide = false // Collision active or not
collideRatio = 0 // how the particles react on collision. 1 is a mirror bounce, 0 is go parallel to the hit surface
fixedScale = 1.0 // Fixed rescale of the particle emitter (for when you rescale the model)

sizeClamp = 50 // Limits particle size. Default to 50

// ***************
// From here the value are not the default anymore. 
// ***************


angle = 0.0 1.0 // Display if the angle between the emitter transform and camera is lower than 45° 
angle = 45.0 1.0
angle = 50.0 1.0
distance = 0.0 1.0 // Display if the distance to camera is higher than 110
distance = 100.0 1.0
distance = 110.0 1.0

emission // Modulate emission from mach and density curve. You can add other section for size, energy, speed, grow, offset and scale 
{
mach = 0.0 1.0 
mach = 0.8 1.0 // don't display until mach .8
mach = 1.0 1.0
density = 1.0 1.0
density = 0.4 1.0 // don't display over .4 atmo
density = 0.3 1.0 
density = 0.002 1.0
density = 0.001 0.0 // and stop under .001
}	
size 
{
density = 1.0 3.0
density = 0.01 12.0
}
}

}
}
@MODULE[ModuleEngineConfigs]
{
%type = ModuleEnginesFX
}
}

But...there is no frigging flame in space... <.< what did i miss? i have the fx from hotrockets installed ofc.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Tyren

[Hurry- Starfish!]

Maybe someone should make a big phat warning spot in the OP "changes stock jet engine values!"

/ironic mode off

Why irony? Doesn't need to be big and red, but a warning should be there.

The game we want to play has FAR/NEAR built-in, DRE, life support, and no magical unicorn-pixiedust-and-friendship powered engines that go twice as fast as the fastest turbine engines ever made by man.

If you don't think this is how the game should be, this is the wrong mod for you, because every single part is built around that concept.

I suppose this doesn't count as a pixiedust-powered futuristic device then.

[iamzac]

The game we want to play has FAR/NEAR built-in, DRE, life support, and no magical unicorn-pixiedust-and-friendship powered engines that go twice as fast as the fastest turbine engines ever made by man.

The Scimitar engine can achieve the stock turbojet performance and it's no more or less "magical unicorn-pixiedust-and-friendship" than the SABRE engine included in the B9.

Personally I am using it to replicate a hypersonic plane similar to the proposed Lapcat plane from the link I have included.

I think it's perfectly balanced compared to the SABRE S engine from the point of view of thrust and weight.

The only unreal thing is the name and the design but maybe you could make a B9 one.

It would basically be a slightly lighter SABRE-S, with the same thrust and velocity curve and a slightly funnel shape.

Maybe you could reuse the old SABRE model which was already slightly funnel shaped and put a modified texture... like the jagged texture around the F119 nozzle... or we can use the existing stock turbofan and imagine it's an scimitar engine

Anyway, it would be nice to mention in the original post you modify the stock engines and also write how to undo this modification by deleting the MM file, otherwise people will find out their stock planes don't work no more and have no idea why, as not everyone reads the changelogs.

[K3-Chris]

I suppose this doesn't count as a pixiedust-powered futuristic device then.

http://puu.sh/buWRV.png

It's actually balanced against KW/stock, it's LV-Ns and skippers with some extra mass to account for the convenience of the form factor.

We're adding a note about the change to stock jets next version. (Though frankly I think it should be rolled into FAR, I assume only reason it's not is that ferram has lower salt tolerance than Tav).

[Alshain]

Removing B9_Aerospace-Squad_Jet_Balance.cfg from the root B9 folder should do the job.

Thanks! It was right in front of my nose and I didn't see it :/

Ah thanks, that explains the reason I was wondering about. So in other words, I take it you don't want to make your engines stronger at specific aspects than stock for reasons of being OP, and you don't want the stock engines to be all-around solutions that at on par with the specialized B9 ones at their respective specialities. That makes a lot of sense, I'm just kinda concerned about the implications of your solution; because if it was common for part mods to change other parts to fit their balancing system, I'd imagine that the game could quickly become unplayable with multiple mods installed at once, because their changes would either overwrite each other or possibly stack in unpredictable ways.

Yeah I don't have a problem with them wanting that and all but I have a lot of plane designed I like to reuse that I built long before installing B9 and I don't want them broken and unusable just for this mod. I don't mind modding the mod, if I can find it, but apparently this time I was completely blind for some reason.

[rentaspoon]

Only for a couple seconds, wait it out.

5 minutes long enough

i'll keep trying though

[Elmetian]

Camera menu, Ext button, if you want it on an information overlay hit prev/next until you get to the camera you want. Doesn't work with the APFD because it's a HUD, it has one defined camera, I made 2 versions one with forward camera second with the landing camera, but it works for text only overlays like TOF, LND etc

Hi Chris, thanks for getting back to me. Only just found time to test this and I still can't get it working unfortunately. I can only access those cameras that you've built in to the pods. The camera part that ships with JSI (looks like this) doesn't seem to appear on any of your MFD options.

[K3-Chris]

Hi Chris, thanks for getting back to me. Only just found time to test this and I still can't get it working unfortunately. I can only access those cameras that you've built in to the pods. The camera part that ships with JSI (looks like this) doesn't seem to appear on any of your MFD options.

Works for me, you need to follow my instructions though, press CAM on the top menu, then EXT then next/prev until you get to the ID you want, you set the ID in the right click menu.

Relevant part of the manual:

https://bitbucket.org/Taverius/b9-aerospace/wiki/Multi%20Function%20Display%20Manual.md#markdown-header-cam-camera-menu

5 minutes long enough

i'll keep trying though

That's way long, takes like 5s for me.

Edited September 11, 2014 by K3|Chris

[Elmetian]

Works for me, you need to follow my instructions though, press CAM on the top menu, then EXT then next/prev until you get to the ID you want, you set the ID in the right click menu.

I've had the JSI cameras working in other RPM cockpits so this properly threw me. Got it working eventually by doing a reinstall of B9. Not sure why it wasn't working but I was just getting a black MFD screen with the external cameras :S Thanks anyway

[Ultraturbopanda]

I'm guessing this has probably been asked before, but does anyone know how to set the throttle response on the HX-HPD engines to instant? I'm trying to build a VTOL and the delay is causing a feedback loop in TCA. After rooting around in the B9 parts folder, it seems the engine doesn't exist, so I can't quite get at the CFG.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Ultraturbopanda

[Atrius129]

This whole jet engines conversation is sort of asinine.

For one, I do believe Ferram personally recommends the use of AJE.

Two, the fine people who made this mod put a lot of work into balancing. They had a vision for this mod, and implemented it in a way that they thought would be the most fun. If you don't like it, then B9 may not be the mod you are looking for. I don't see the point of using something like FAR to make this game harder, if you are just going to cheat using broken stock engines.

Three, remove the .cfg if you have SUCH a problem with this.

Four, don't complain about it. You can fix it, they told you how. The authors did us a service, and we owe them our thanks.

That being said, the new B9 has really changed the game for me. I am now finding excuses just to run Spaceplane missions, even if it would be more practical just to fire off a rocket. Flying via the BEAUTIFUL new internals is SO much fun, and makes for a completely different experience. The stakes feel so much higher when you are sitting in that cockpit approaching the runway. You touch down and finally bring the 50 ton bird to a halt with screeching breaks. After the smoke clears you glance over at the co-pilot chair and see a horrified expression on Bob's face. It's perfect.

5 minutes long enough

i'll keep trying though

IIRC the initial loadtime upon installing ATM is considerably longer than subsequent loadings.

[Hurry- Starfish!]

For one, I do believe Ferram personally recommends the use of AJE.

Well yeah, that was one of my points. IMO balancing changes to stock should be left in the hands of such mods when possible, because sneaking them into part packs hurts modularity.

I don't see the point of using something like FAR to make this game harder, if you are just going to cheat using broken stock engines.

FAR isn't there to make the game harder, it's there to make aerodynamics more realistic. IIRC someone said before that part of the reason for this mod dropping stock aerodynamics support is that pushing the heavy new HX parts through air is actually too hard without NEAR or FAR. And "cheating" is a very loosely defined term in this game anyway, what with every player basically using their personal combination of parts, utility mods and gamemode.

remove the .cfg if you have SUCH a problem with this.

That's been said before, no need to repeat it. I already said I know how to do that in an earlier post, where I also tried to explain why that is not my main point and why I started discussing this in the first place. Alshain on the other hand couldn't find the .cfg. Neither of us needs the "remove" advice now, or needed it before.

If you don't like it, then B9 may not be the mod you are looking for.

That is also unproductive. I am not "looking for" B9. I am using it, have been for a long time, and I like it a lot. If that wasn't the case I wouldn't bother writing long posts about it on the forums. I was just trying to get across my concern about one of the recent changes. Edited September 12, 2014 by Hurry, Starfish!