[1.3.0] OPT Space Plane v2.0.1 - updated 29/07/2017

[Apaseall]

So the ScreamJet, J60D. Erm why is it soooooo long?

[JadeOfMaar]

@Apaseall I don't know why the J-60 is so long but I can see functional things that can take advantage of its length, and I have taken advantage for myself, making the basic J-60 an all-range/all-speed jet engine and making the WarpJet SURGE which requires a lengthy combustion chamber. iirc (or is it a dream I think is real) the J60 once held fuel and so was an engine with its own tank. It's also among the earliest of the OPT parts, I think.

[canisin]

I am going to ask a slightly stupid question.

I have just installed OPT and OPT Reconfig (but not OPT Legacy, which might be relevant to my question). I have been checking out the parts that come with the mods but I noticed that there is no cockpit or adapter for the KH size category. 

I am wondering if there never was a cockpit for that category and development on the parts had stopped while the KH category was under development. Or if there was a KH cockpit, but it some kind of problems that the reconfig wouldn't be able to solve and so it was moved to the legacy pack?

I have also noticed that Kottabos' presentation of the mod (which is a rather old video) starts with the K Spaceshuttle Cockpit, which also seems to be unavailable in the mod and possibly it has been replaced by the K Spaceplane Cockpit. Once again is this a part that I should go looking for in the legacy pack? And overall is the legacy pack something that is recomended for general usage or is it for those who have already built ships and planes containing abandoned parts?

[The_Joe]

I'm

40 minutes ago, canisin said:

 I have been checking out the parts that come with the mods but I noticed that there is no cockpit or adapter for the KH size category. 

 

Only answering the part I know, the rest of your question someone else may help with.

 

H sized parts come in two types, some are flat on the bottom. These flat ones are designed to mount to the top [or bottom] of K style parts. Your adapter is an H sized nose piece. 

 

H style passenger compartments and adapters can be placed above and below without issue, it's only if you want extra large cargo bays you need to grab KH parts.

[canisin]

5 minutes ago, The_Joe said:

I'm

Only answering the part I know, the rest of your question someone else may help with.

 

H sized parts come in two types, some are flat on the bottom. These flat ones are designed to mount to the top [or bottom] of K style parts. Your adapter is an H sized nose piece. 

 

H style passenger compartments and adapters can be placed above and below without issue, it's only if you want extra large cargo bays you need to grab KH parts.

Aaaah! That makes soo much sense now! Trying it out in SPH, I loved it when I finally got it! Thanks!

[Apaseall]

2 hours ago, JadeOfMaar said:

@Apaseall I don't know why the J-60 is so long but I can see functional things that can take advantage of its length, and I have taken advantage for myself, making the basic J-60 an all-range/all-speed jet engine and making the WarpJet SURGE which requires a lengthy combustion chamber. iirc (or is it a dream I think is real) the J60 once held fuel and so was an engine with its own tank. It's also among the earliest of the OPT parts, I think.

Thanks for the reply @JadeOfMaar

I did wonder if the intention of the length was for a fuel tank. What do you think about changing it in a future update to allow users to pick if they want to fill it up or leave it empty? Maybe only allow LF or LFO as resource options, along with empty?

[JadeOfMaar]

@Apaseall Maybe originally it was meant to hold fuel but I don't remember well enough to confirm. Anyway it was among K. Yeon's later decisions (or the other owners of OPT Legacy) to not have it hold fuel and I will respect their wish.

[Apaseall]

1 minute ago, JadeOfMaar said:

@Apaseall Maybe originally it was meant to hold fuel but I don't remember well enough to confirm. Anyway it was among K. Yeon's later decisions (or the other owners of OPT Legacy) to not have it hold fuel and I will respect their wish.

Fair enough. I thought I would give the Screamer a go, see if I could hold off a little longer before switching modes. For the fun.

[JadeOfMaar]

12 hours ago, canisin said:

I am going to ask a slightly stupid question.

I have just installed OPT and OPT Reconfig (but not OPT Legacy, which might be relevant to my question). I have been checking out the parts that come with the mods but I noticed that there is no cockpit or adapter for the KH size category. 

I am wondering if there never was a cockpit for that category and development on the parts had stopped while the KH category was under development. Or if there was a KH cockpit, but it some kind of problems that the reconfig wouldn't be able to solve and so it was moved to the legacy pack?

I have also noticed that Kottabos' presentation of the mod (which is a rather old video) starts with the K Spaceshuttle Cockpit, which also seems to be unavailable in the mod and possibly it has been replaced by the K Spaceplane Cockpit. Once again is this a part that I should go looking for in the legacy pack? And overall is the legacy pack something that is recomended for general usage or is it for those who have already built ships and planes containing abandoned parts?

In addition to the answer given by @The_Joe the H body is meant only to serve as a complement to K (part of why it is intended to not get a cockpit). In that regard I honestly think H is very short in development as:

• There is no docking scheme to (dis)connect an H craft from a K craft in flight.
• The H bicoupler is only appropriate (as an engine mount) if you build an H section on both the upper side and underside of a K body.
• There's no Mk2 adapter. Everything needs a Mk2 adapter. Law of the universe.
• There's no payload part such that we can carry things other than fuel in an H plane.
• I forget if there's a drone core... Is there an H drone core?

Development has stopped because the main developer doesn't come on the forum anymore and hasn't posted an update to OPT in several months now. OPT Reconfig's purpose is to keep OPT relevant without me needing to fully take over the mod. (I would do it but I have my reasons against it.)

OPT Legacy is filled with retired parts and parts contributed by other players including myself. The Stail and Humpback bodies in Legacy were once J and K respectively. The particular K cockpit you're looking for is not in Legacy and has a problem... if you change the control point to its docking port you cannot change it back to horizontal in that cockpit. It looks like it would fit the Legacy Avatar/Chimera body.

OPT Legacy is recommended for general use. It gives you even more fancy plane parts (even more wings) and engines with wider performance envelopes (engines that work much better on planets other than Kerbin and Laythe) than in OPT main.

[canisin]

3 hours ago, JadeOfMaar said:

In addition to the answer given by @The_Joe the H body is meant only to serve as a complement to K (part of why it is intended to not get a cockpit). In that regard I honestly think H is very short in development as:

• There is no docking scheme to (dis)connect an H craft from a K craft in flight.
• The H bicoupler is only appropriate (as an engine mount) if you build an H section on both the upper side and underside of a K body.
• There's no Mk2 adapter. Everything needs a Mk2 adapter. Law of the universe.
• There's no payload part such that we can carry things other than fuel in an H plane.
• I forget if there's a drone core... Is there an H drone core?

Development has stopped because the main developer doesn't come on the forum anymore and hasn't posted an update to OPT in several months now. OPT Reconfig's purpose is to keep OPT relevant without me needing to fully take over the mod. (I would do it but I have my reasons against it.)

OPT Legacy is filled with retired parts and parts contributed by other players including myself. The Stail and Humpback bodies in Legacy were once J and K respectively. The particular K cockpit you're looking for is not in Legacy and has a problem... if you change the control point to its docking port you cannot change it back to horizontal in that cockpit. It looks like it would fit the Legacy Avatar/Chimera body.

OPT Legacy is recommended for general use. It gives you even more fancy plane parts (even more wings) and engines with wider performance envelopes (engines that work much better on planets other than Kerbin and Laythe) than in OPT main.

Thanks a lot for the detailed explanation. I really loved the beautiful new bodies introduced by OPT and how well they combine. Thanks again for your hard work in providing these configs to keep these lovely parts relevant.

Last night I played around with them for a bit. But the first K-plane that I built did not seem to pick up speed as well as I expected it to and when I turned on the aero forces gui (f12), there were these huge red drag markers. When the engines kicked in after plane had picked up some initial speed, it reached (i think) mach 5 or 6, but after that it flipped terribly. I assumed that my design was not stable. But today, I read though the forum thread and saw some mention of drag problems. Can you explain what those problems are?

[JadeOfMaar]

@canisin You're welcome.

Did your drag problems start because you installed Legacy (if you did)? The descriptions of drag problems are usually, including but not limited to:

• Aero shielding is broken for an unknown number of the cargo or hollow parts. This is either due to an error on K.Yeon's part when he made them, or that the changes in stock aero are the source. Other part makers have expressed their displeasure with the way the cargo module works so it's not just OPT to blame for faulty areo shielding.
• The drag cube system (however easy it may be on our CPUs vs other viable methods for drag calculation) is just very bad. With or without mod parts, players have to use hacks like putting nose cones on the backs of Rapiers and offsetting them in to reduce drag due to unused stack attach nodes. This problem is amplified by the very large cross-section of OPT body parts.
• K body parts have been found to be more drag-causing due to the attach nodes for H body parts.
• There is an issue going about (which has been resolved but who knows, apparently some folks still get it) where no craft they launch can break Mach 1.
• It is my personal experience (with the help of a debug mod) that the center of pressure (drag) seems to always sit ahead of CoM, and the forward-most parts (especially cockpits and cabins) produce excessive drag for reasons unknown. It might as well be the CoL because the center of pressure is the anchor of a plane's stopping power without the help of airbrakes. You may also want to check your dry vs wet CoM and the CoL if you don't already do so. And also rotate your plane slightly while in the SPH to see how the CoL changes with your angle of attack.

Based on my points above, I assume your your plane's CoM must be creeping behind the CoL at that point, or your plane has too many forward control surfaces.

Edited June 22, 2018 by JadeOfMaar

[The_Joe]

14 hours ago, canisin said:

Thanks a lot for the detailed explanation. I really loved the beautiful new bodies introduced by OPT and how well they combine. Thanks again for your hard work in providing these configs to keep these lovely parts relevant.

Last night I played around with them for a bit. But the first K-plane that I built did not seem to pick up speed as well as I expected it to and when I turned on the aero forces gui (f12), there were these huge red drag markers. When the engines kicked in after plane had picked up some initial speed, it reached (i think) mach 5 or 6, but after that it flipped terribly. I assumed that my design was not stable. But today, I read though the forum thread and saw some mention of drag problems. Can you explain what those problems are?

EDIT: Didnt read your post correctly.  Nevermind.  

Edited June 23, 2018 by The_Joe

[stali79]

I removed the 250 unit LF tank from the J-60 because given the performance of the engine it didn't make sense that it had space for a fuel tank AND an engine with THAT performance profile.

Further development of OPT solely depends on when/if @K.Yeon returns.

[canisin]

On 6/22/2018 at 4:33 PM, JadeOfMaar said:

@canisin You're welcome.

Did your drag problems start because you installed Legacy (if you did)? The descriptions of drag problems are usually, including but not limited to:

• Aero shielding is broken for an unknown number of the cargo or hollow parts. This is either due to an error on K.Yeon's part when he made them, or that the changes in stock aero are the source. Other part makers have expressed their displeasure with the way the cargo module works so it's not just OPT to blame for faulty areo shielding.
• The drag cube system (however easy it may be on our CPUs vs other viable methods for drag calculation) is just very bad. With or without mod parts, players have to use hacks like putting nose cones on the backs of Rapiers and offsetting them in to reduce drag due to unused stack attach nodes. This problem is amplified by the very large cross-section of OPT body parts.
• K body parts have been found to be more drag-causing due to the attach nodes for H body parts.
• There is an issue going about (which has been resolved but who knows, apparently some folks still get it) where no craft they launch can break Mach 1.
• It is my personal experience (with the help of a debug mod) that the center of pressure (drag) seems to always sit ahead of CoM, and the forward-most parts (especially cockpits and cabins) produce excessive drag for reasons unknown. It might as well be the CoL because the center of pressure is the anchor of a plane's stopping power without the help of airbrakes. You may also want to check your dry vs wet CoM and the CoL if you don't already do so. And also rotate your plane slightly while in the SPH to see how the CoL changes with your angle of attack.

Based on my points above, I assume your your plane's CoM must be creeping behind the CoL at that point, or your plane has too many forward control surfaces.

Sorry for the late response and once again thanks a lot for taking your time to give me a detailed response.

No, I did not install legacy. The ship had many cargo/hallow parts and it was built out of K parts, so it seems that it hits two items off your list. So no wonder it was draggy I guess

[The_Joe]

13 hours ago, canisin said:

Sorry for the late response and once again thanks a lot for taking your time to give me a detailed response.

No, I did not install legacy. The ship had many cargo/hallow parts and it was built out of K parts, so it seems that it hits two items off your list. So no wonder it was draggy I guess

@JadeOfMaar has done an amazing job keeping these parts funtioning in 1.4, and I am really thankful. 

The way the game calculates drag makes it difficult to really take advantage of these badass parts in my humble opinion, and I find this mod to be way more enjoyable and predicable with FAR, and I recommend you check it out. 

This isn't to say that FAR is a required workaround, it isn't.

 

[Apaseall]

@JadeOfMaar

Time for a request I think. I am hoping this is the right place to ask. Is this the OPT Legacy thread?

Any chance of some engines in the H Mounted format?

At present I end my K series with H Mounted BiCouplers.

I am thinking of Linear Areospikes. Some form of mad butchery, a crazy offspring of a BiCoupler with AreoSpike. Cut off the back end of the BiCoupler and slap a shrunken AreoSpike on it.

Not sure if making new parts is a thing. Sorry if it is not.

Talking of new parts, what is the form factor of the front of the J-60D?

I tried attaching MK2 noses, but the skins do not look right. There is a jolt along the side mid-line grey stripe. A step if you will. Purely visual. I think the physical shape is close enough to not be glaring.

I seem to be flying straight now, still got the uneven heat production, but it is not changing the thrust. Solution? Reduce weight to give even greater TWR! Sound Kerbal engineering at it's heart, lol.

[JadeOfMaar]

@Apaseall You're in the right place to ask. All OPT support is handled here. There's a good chance for H engines but I must mention that the idea of making things for H mounted plus H fuselage is daunting.

The front of the J-60 series is Mk2.

I can make parts now but I can't devote myself to OPT. I've already developed quite a to-do list for part-making while learning the art.

[Apaseall]

Great news that you are developing a new skill, part making. I bet you have a list. Long as your arm I bet.

I take it you would have to make H Mounted items from scratch as you might not have the source files. I know you can do the part files easy pea-sy.

I have no idea what goes into making the image for the part. I hear something called Blender is used. But that is as far as I know. Me and art work...

Well at least you have both parts as images to look at, so not so much in the dark about what it looks like. Unlike making a completely new part.

Thanks for the reply, fingers crossed.

Take a peek at slapping some Mk2 parts onto the front of the J-60D. You will see what I mean about the paint work looking wonky.

[Apaseall]

I have a different request today.

No new parts you will be glad to hear.

KSPIE, lovely mod. It has two parts in a folder located at \GameData\WarpPlugin\Parts\BeamedPower\Thermal\Hybridwings. AFAI can tell they are supposed to be used for receiving beamed power. But they also are listed as being radiators. There is a tail fin and a wing. The wing is an rectangle shape.

So here is the request. Have you tried using the new skinning thing? Or played with skinning in any form? By skinning I mean changing the colour of a part?

OPT have a wide range of wing shapes. What I am thinking of is a clickable button in the SPH. Click and the colour changes.

I know there are colour change mods out there, DCK I think is one.

But when the wing changes colour I want the properties of the wing to change. Remove the ability to store fuel and ... you guessed it, make it work the same as the KSPIE wing. Add ability to receive power and most importantly, behave like a radiator. Maybe change the mass?

The change of abilities, not sure how it works with clicking stuff in the SPH, but you know how to change stuff in the .cfg files.

To recap. No new parts. Change colour to black as a button in SPH, change abilities of the wing.

Does this sound like a good idea? Or is it too niche?

[AnthonyP]

Hey Jade, I just found a weird bug on this. First time I've had a bug like this with OPT, which I have been using since 1.2. In my new career game in GPP, the OPT J Inline Large Docking Port causes my spaceplane to start 1,000 meters above the runway. No idea why. I looked through the config, but didn't see anything that should cause it. I tested the standard Inline Docking Port and the Inline Boarding Ramp and neither of them cause it. Let me know if you need any details or if there is anything I can do to assist in troubleshooting. 

Thanks in advanced. 

[JadeOfMaar]

20 minutes ago, AnthonyP said:

Hey Jade, I just found a weird bug on this. First time I've had a bug like this with OPT, which I have been using since 1.2. In my new career game in GPP, the OPT J Inline Large Docking Port causes my spaceplane to start 1,000 meters above the runway. No idea why. I looked through the config, but didn't see anything that should cause it. I tested the standard Inline Docking Port and the Inline Boarding Ramp and neither of them cause it. Let me know if you need any details or if there is anything I can do to assist in troubleshooting. 

Thanks in advanced. 

This is a Unity thing (since 1.4.0) and happens to parts with certain collider setups. It also happens with the J Inline Boarding Ramp (and if you use OPT Legacy, the Humpback ramp)....And happens to other mods too.

Install this and don't put launch clamps on any craft containing the affected parts.

 

[AnthonyP]

That was quick. Thank you. However, I don't think this is the same thing. I have had that bug where ships and bases bounce on physics load for so long that I have learned to work around it. This bug has the craft immediately respawn exactly 1000 meters over the runway (or launch pad) and then fall to the ground. I also tested the J Inline Boarding Ramp and it didn't do the same thing. I will see if I can get a video of it. Since I am new to the forums, I'm not sure what the moderator will allow. 

[AnthonyP]

Here is a quick video showing the bug in action. 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/17ZbmyZwsGiYBfDz8YmKWyUWGG1MoM_1O/view?usp=sharing

[Starwaster]

5 hours ago, AnthonyP said:

Here is a quick video showing the bug in action. 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/17ZbmyZwsGiYBfDz8YmKWyUWGG1MoM_1O/view?usp=sharing

Ok yes, that is a known issue in 1.4 (or one of the minor 1.4 updates, I forget exactly when it was introduced) and to correct it you should do what @JadeOfMaar said and install that mod.

[AnthonyP]

Sorry for the delay. I had a IRL emergency and haven't had a chance to test anything until today. After installing that mod, it does work. It makes a weird graphic glitch, but works fine. Thank you both very much.