[1.3.x] SETI, Unmanned before Manned [Patreon]

[Ixenzo]

I'm having problems in early career. I don't have OrbitalScience or any other science part packs installed (since it's essentially more parts to haul and click on) and only early propulsion I have is procedural SRB and HRB with the earliest gimballing engine being on a 45 science node. Recent update removed reaction wheels from the early game altogether and the only steering control I have available in my install is 0.25 degrees gimbal on boosters. I also have science mod at 60% (Outer planets pack), so I'm stuck with them for a long time, grinding Kerbin biome science and watching 9 out of 10 rockets go tumble at 200 m/s vertical (stock or FAR, no difference). If I'm lucky (or can be bothered enough to add back wing parts from the stock game), out of many reverted launches the rocket won't flip and I'll get it to orbit perpendicular style but it doesn't change the situation with science much.

So, the problem: complete lack of craft control in early stages of the career. On the contrary, once you get that 45 rocketry node, you're given both best lifter and vacuum 125 engine with acceptable control authority and from that you can go pretty much anywhere in the solar system, and in result science just snowballs. The Reliant being earlier in the tree makes no difference as it's the same SRB/HRB but with two parts instead. It's not my first career start in this exact setup and I was able to get through the early tree with little problems before that.

Maybe something's wrong with my tech tree, overlapping mods? Or having .6 science return without respective part mods is my problem?

Edit: Actually, it's a fair challenge. Having such challenges makes the game more interesting. This particular one I solved by taking a Swivel and a Terrier from part test contracts and conducting a low Munar flyby mission with their help. No maneuver nodes, no patched conics, no reaction wheels, only gimbal. That's the real game, man.

Edited February 10, 2016 by Ixenzo

[legoclone09]

Can someone please tell me the exact changes the balancemod does? I'm only using unmanned before manned so I'd like to see what it does exactly before installing it. Thanks!

[kcs123]

Sorry, can't tell much more than it is already in OP:

Quote

3. Part & Science rebalancing - SETI-BalanceMod (currently provided within the SETI-CommunityTechTree download)
- Some part rebalancing to fit the SETIctt progression (eg rebalanced RemoteTech dish masses), probe core rebalances
- New Parts and textures, mainly by LordAurelius (HRB, SurfaceSampler) and SwGustav (Procedural Textures) and Procedural Probe Core
- Simple science experiments (eg thermometer) can be transmitted for 100%
- MaterialsBay and MysteryGoo can not be collected for balancing reasons, but can be reset by scientists (for multi-use, if you transmit)
- MaterialsBay and MysteryGoo have different masses, sizes and science payouts, use the StationScience Cyclotron, if you want to transmit for 100%
- Some other rebalances, eg more EC storage in command parts

 

It is probably hard to track all of changes and changelog even for Yemo, because stock game and some mods also shift stuff back and forth in almost every new version release. What was not listed in OP, if IIRC is latest changes with milestone rewards for science and cash. Hire cost for new kerbonauts is fixed and some other things that were blended in gameplay so well that you can easy forget that changes were made trough SETI-Balance mod.

What I can tell is that 99.99% install of balance mode will not break your current playtrough. Although, as always it is highly recommended to backup your save game, just for that 0.01% of chance that something might go south.

[Yemo]

On 7.2.2016 at 9:06 AM, senord said:

I'm having an issue with the manned orbit mission from the seti contracts pack- when I'm actually orbiting, it acknowledges that the state: destination: kerbin and state: situation: orbit goals have been met, but of course the craft hasn't landed, but then when I land the craft, it acknowledges it as having landed, but doesn't maintain the orbit information. Is this a general problem, or is it just in my install?

EDIT: I figured it out- seems to be related to not having the capsule as the root part of the craft

Interesting observation about the root part, might be noteworthy for @nightingale.

3 hours ago, Ixenzo said:

I'm having problems in early career. I don't have OrbitalScience or any other science part packs installed (since it's essentially more parts to haul and click on) and only early propulsion I have is procedural SRB and HRB with the earliest gimballing engine being on a 45 science node. Recent update removed reaction wheels from the early game altogether and the only steering control I have available in my install is 0.25 degrees gimbal on boosters. I also have science mod at 60% (Outer planets pack), so I'm stuck with them for a long time, grinding Kerbin biome science and watching 9 out of 10 rockets go tumble at 200 m/s vertical (stock or FAR, no difference). If I'm lucky (or can be bothered enough to add back wing parts from the stock game), out of many reverted launches the rocket won't flip and I'll get it to orbit perpendicular style but it doesn't change the situation with science much.

So, the problem: complete lack of craft control in early stages of the career. On the contrary, once you get that 45 rocketry node, you're given both best lifter and vacuum 125 engine with acceptable control authority and from that you can go pretty much anywhere in the solar system, and in result science just snowballs. The Reliant being earlier in the tree makes no difference as it's the same SRB/HRB but with two parts instead. It's not my first career start in this exact setup and I was able to get through the early tree with little problems before that.

Maybe something's wrong with my tech tree, overlapping mods? Or having .6 science return without respective part mods is my problem?

Edit: Actually, it's a fair challenge. Having such challenges makes the game more interesting. This particular one I solved by taking a Swivel and a Terrier from part test contracts and conducting a low Munar flyby mission with their help. No maneuver nodes, no patched conics, no reaction wheels, only gimbal. That's the real game, man.

While the "struggle for control" in the early career is intentional, it is not intended to be this long/problematic.

The intended progression is:

1. start: No control, but fins for stability
2. earlyAviation 6 science: (TweakScaleable) control surfaces, like winglets
3. stability 16 science: RCS thrusters, stock linear RCS port and the all inclusive block from VenStockRevamp
4. generalRocketry 20 science: Gimbal on upper stage engine LV-900 from VenStockRevamp
5. advancedRocketry 45 science: Gimbal on lower stage engine LV-T45
6. advFlightControl 90 science: Reaction wheels

I guess you do not have VenStockRevamp installed (which is recommended since it fills many gaps in the stock part catalogue) and missed the stock linear RCS port in the stability tech node?

The tumble at 200m/s is a sign of asymmetric rockets and/or improper thrust to weight ratio combined with a lack of fins. Some early real life rockets used spin-stabilisation, which can be induced by slightly tilting the fins, though fins alone should be sufficient to keep the rocket flying straight. The fins are tweakscaleable. though even a rocket without fins with a small gimbal should be ok, as long as the thrust to weight ratio is not too extreme in either direction.

So it is not that bad, but I kind of envy you for the experience of trying to grind to 45 science without any control ;-).

 

1 hour ago, legoclone09 said:

Can someone please tell me the exact changes the balancemod does? I'm only using unmanned before manned so I'd like to see what it does exactly before installing it. Thanks!

There is no full list of changes for the balance mod, but I ll try to update the description in the OP. First thing to note is, that the SETI balance mod mainly changes part stats. SETIctt is the big tech tree mod, changing the tech tree and radically changing part locations while UnmannedBeforeManned is the mini tech tree mod which only makes relatively minor changes to part locations.

The SETI-BalanceMod is intended to be used with SETIctt, but it can be used with any tech tree. At the moment, there is a "(part)mod-core" for which the balance mod is made, essentially the mods which are recommended when you install SETI-BalanceMod using ckan. Since most other part mods are not "rebalanced", they may upset some of the balancing changes (especially concerning reaction wheels).

So, what does it rebalance for that ckan part-mod package? This is the list in the OP I just updated:

- Action groups available from the start, fixed cosmonaut costs, higher contract limit (needs CustomBarnKit)
- Some part rebalancing to fit the probes first progression eg rebalanced RemoteTech dishes (0.9.6.1), probe core rebalances
- New Parts and textures, mainly by LordAurelius (HRB, SurfaceSampler) and SwGustav (Procedural Textures) + procedural probe core and lightweight airplane cockpit
- Simple science experiments (eg thermometer) can be transmitted for 100%, recovery yields 100% for all experiments
- MaterialsBay and MysteryGoo can not be collected for balancing reasons, but can be reset by scientists (for multi-use, if you transmit)
- MaterialsBay and MysteryGoo have different masses, sizes and science payouts, use the StationScience Cyclotron, if you want to transmit for 100%
- Fuel tank & SRB (0.9.6.1) rebalancing along the lines of procedural parts
- Some other rebalances, eg more EC storage in command parts

 

The previously mentioned split of ckan recommendations and suggestions has been made. Basic mods are recommended by both, as before (CustomBarnKit, VenStockRevamp). SETIctt suggests all the part mods which are supported by it, SETIrebalance recommends the mod pack as before. I m thinking about suggesting "beautification" mods with SETIrebalance, especially since 1.1 is not too far away.

For a start I would go with
EVE - for the clouds and stuff
RealPlume - which also installs SmokeScreen
AmbientLightAdjustment / Planetshine - they are incompatible (which is coded in ckan), the first is very useful, the second is very pretty. Maybe I suggest AmbientLightAdjustment and leave Planetshine until 1.1

Not sure about Chatterer, Scatterer and TextureReplacer, might want to wait until 1.1 to suggest those.

 

SETI BalanceMod 0.9.6.1 is nearly done, it mainly deals with SRB and RemoteTech part rebalances.

Oh, and I just noticed that KerbalEngineer shows up in ckan, for 1.0.5.

Edited February 10, 2016 by Yemo

[nightingale]

On 07/02/2016 at 1:06 AM, senord said:

I'm having an issue with the manned orbit mission from the seti contracts pack- when I'm actually orbiting, it acknowledges that the state: destination: kerbin and state: situation: orbit goals have been met, but of course the craft hasn't landed, but then when I land the craft, it acknowledges it as having landed, but doesn't maintain the orbit information. Is this a general problem, or is it just in my install?

EDIT: I figured it out- seems to be related to not having the capsule as the root part of the craft

8 minutes ago, Yemo said:

Interesting observation about the root part, might be noteworthy for @nightingale.

This is a known issue with the vessel tracking, and caused by limitations in how KSP defines what a vessel is before/after docking/undocking.  When vessel tracking is used, I assign the current root part to be the "key" part, so that when stuff is undocked (or decoupled), it will keep tracking the section that contains the part that used to be the root part (it may not longer be the root part).  In about 95% of cases, this is the desired behaviour.  The other 5% tends to fall by the wayside.

I'm not familiar with the details of the specific contract (@Yemo, toss me a GitHub link and I'll take a look), but the recommendation is to make changes to the contract to not use the vessel tracking (if possible).

Still, I might be able to improve on this a little (maybe get it to work the way the player expects 98% of the time), so raised #471.

[legoclone09]

Thanks @Yemo, and also my reliance on MJ will end now that KER is back on CKAN. I'll see how the balancemod effects my career save, can you tell me what the fuel tank balances do? I assume they reduce dry mass to be in-line with Procedural Parts.

[Ixenzo]

1 hour ago, Yemo said:

improper thrust to weight ratio combined with a lack of fins

It's probably because I used FAR in this install. I remember launching HRB finless rockets straight up with no trouble in stock atmo if I was actively adjusting thrust during the launch. I promptly removed FAR after its reminder why I didn't use it earlier - heat issues - and it looks good now. I also play without any wing parts, so no fins at all for me anyway 

I believe I did miss the early RCS port but I don't think I'd taken the node even if I knew it was there - I usually go straight for the goo canister and try to farm science for that Swivel/Terrier node. This time I was lucky there were these part test contracts so I just shot for the Mun with a flyby return probe - about 160 science at .6 multiplier. Which got me thinking - what if there were hardcoded part test contracts that would be available for a short period of time after a certain milestone has been reached but the part in question isn't unlocked yet and is a completely new design? Like you main work horse are HRBs in the early game and after exiting atmosphere you get a contract for a Swivel - gimballing engine two nodes away? Or the first Ion-engine 1-2 nodes before it? A one-time opportunity that would allow massive boosts in science if taken notice of and executed properly?

[kcs123]

Some reminder for @Yemo,  new stock Comms System is postponed for release after 1.1. Meaning it is more meaningful to make balances for Anthena range and RT before KSP 1.1 release and for KSP 1.1. release.

[Yemo]

On 10.2.2016 at 5:47 PM, nightingale said:

[...]

I'm not familiar with the details of the specific contract (@Yemo, toss me a GitHub link and I'll take a look), but the recommendation is to make changes to the contract to not use the vessel tracking (if possible).

Still, I might be able to improve on this a little (maybe get it to work the way the player expects 98% of the time), so raised #471.

Hm, I ll keep that in mind when I have time to work on the contracts again, but since it is not a problem for most people that may be a while. Thank you for the info!

On 10.2.2016 at 6:13 PM, legoclone09 said:

Thanks @Yemo, and also my reliance on MJ will end now that KER is back on CKAN. I'll see how the balancemod effects my career save, can you tell me what the fuel tank balances do? I assume they reduce dry mass to be in-line with Procedural Parts.

In the current version, SETIrebalance will make quite some changes (eg resizing materials bay) which may be problematic for existing craft. Also note that it rebalances procedural parts itself. Since many stock tanks are all over the place in terms of "balance", it is hard to list changes. I basically resized a (SETI-rebalanced) procedural fuel tank to about the size of each stock tank and took those values regardless of what the stock values were.

On 10.2.2016 at 7:35 PM, Ixenzo said:

It's probably because I used FAR in this install. I remember launching HRB finless rockets straight up with no trouble in stock atmo if I was actively adjusting thrust during the launch. I promptly removed FAR after its reminder why I didn't use it earlier - heat issues - and it looks good now. I also play without any wing parts, so no fins at all for me anyway 

I believe I did miss the early RCS port but I don't think I'd taken the node even if I knew it was there - I usually go straight for the goo canister and try to farm science for that Swivel/Terrier node. This time I was lucky there were these part test contracts so I just shot for the Mun with a flyby return probe - about 160 science at .6 multiplier. Which got me thinking - what if there were hardcoded part test contracts that would be available for a short period of time after a certain milestone has been reached but the part in question isn't unlocked yet and is a completely new design? Like you main work horse are HRBs in the early game and after exiting atmosphere you get a contract for a Swivel - gimballing engine two nodes away? Or the first Ion-engine 1-2 nodes before it? A one-time opportunity that would allow massive boosts in science if taken notice of and executed properly?

Without wing parts is of course hard in the early game.

Yeah, that survivability node is a clear favorite among it's peers, even though RCS makes stability more tempting than before.

I plan to introduce 2 new nodes on that tech tree level:

basicConstruction - where I plan to move to fairings from stability
early Science - where I plan to move the goo and some other stuff from survivability

I even thought about moving all decouplers (radial and inline) to basicConstruction, but that might be too restrictive especially when people play without SETIrebalance (HRB) and VenStockRevamp (bigger SRB, LV-T15).

 

Connecting contracts and tech progression would be very rewarding but would also be a serious problem for modularity. Like I at least to some degree have to take into consideration that people do not have VenStockRevamp installed, I would have to take into consideration that some people have other contract packs. And that would drastically increase complexity.

On 10.2.2016 at 8:33 PM, kcs123 said:

Some reminder for @Yemo,  new stock Comms System is postponed for release after 1.1. Meaning it is more meaningful to make balances for Anthena range and RT before KSP 1.1 release and for KSP 1.1. release.

Excellent news!

Since RemoteTech can give essentially the same results as AntennaRange, with the right configs, I m hesitant to devide my time. RemoteTech rebalancing incoming right now:

 

So that update became large than intended. Quite some significant changes affecting existing designs - SRBs, DMagic Science, RemoteTech dishes and even Universal Storage support (not yet for SETIctt).

Special note about the Avionics parts which now work as probe cores as well. Especially the radial one from VenStockRevamp is useful, since it has physicsSignificance = 1 and thus does not offset the CoM.

 

SETI BalanceMod v0.9.6.1 (for KSP 1.0.5)

CKAN Mod Recommendations and Suggestions

• Former suggestions moved to SETIctt, as they are not rebalanced
• Additional recommendations like FilterExtensions & MechJeb+Engineer for all
• Additional suggestions, like visual enhancements and KerbalConstructionTime

SRBs totally rebalanced after procedural parts srb

• Capacity changes only? affect new parts (newly taken from VAB part list), but masses immediately change for all parts
• It is thus recommended scrap SRBs from existing designs and reattach them from the part list

RemoteTech comm devices rebalanced, mostly in terms of EC/s usage and costs

DMagic probe experiment masses standardized into 20/40kg scheme

Mod Support: Universal Storage

• Though US will only be fully supported by SETIctt 0.9.6.2, so some parts are still in the wrong tech tree places

Other rebalances

• Avionics Hubs (stock and Ven) have now probe core functionality as well
• They still offer additional control functions to non-pilots, even if they have no connection to ksc
• The radial avionics hub from Ven has physicsSignificance = 1, so it adds its mass to the part it is attached to
• Accelerometer and GravMax 10kg instead of 20kg
• HECS-II probe core from VenStockRevamp balanced after 1.25m remote guidance unit for the time being
• Fixed EC on larger probe cores

[Speedster159]

Where am I supposed to find the B9 Procedural wings? From what I've read they should be in "Early Aviation" ?

[Yemo]

1 hour ago, Speedster159 said:

Where am I supposed to find the B9 Procedural wings? From what I've read they should be in "Early Aviation" ?

They should be in earlyAviation. Note that they are a separate mod and not included in B9 Aerospace.

[Valerian]

On 2/10/2016 at 5:34 PM, Yemo said:

AmbientLightAdjustment / Planetshine - they are incompatible (which is coded in ckan), the first is very useful, the second is very pretty. Maybe I suggest AmbientLightAdjustment and leave Planetshine until 1.1

Planetshine can do the same things as AmbientLightAdjustment, simply change the Vacuum Ambient Light level in PlanetShine options and it will have EXACTLY the same effect.

I marked it incompatible because both are changing the vacuum ambient light at the same time, and PlanetShine already include the same feature + more.

Edited February 15, 2016 by Valerian

[kcs123]

Also search for proper link in B9PW thread too. @Crzyrndm maintain both, B9PW and older procedural wing mod while original authoe of mod is busy elsewhere. I belive that this is latest link for B9PW, but better check B9PW thread for confirmation.

[Speedster159]

1 hour ago, Yemo said:

They should be in earlyAviation. Note that they are a separate mod and not included in B9 Aerospace.

I have it installed yet it's not there? I have the one by Crzyrndm/bac9.

Just noticed the Reaction wheels are so far down the tree. Aside from going manned is there any earlier implementation of the reaction wheels?

Edited February 15, 2016 by Speedster159

[Yemo]

32 minutes ago, Speedster159 said:

I have it installed yet it's not there? I have the one by Crzyrndm/bac9.

Just noticed the Reaction wheels are so far down the tree. Aside from going manned is there any earlier implementation of the reaction wheels?

I will probably be unable to test during the week, but looking at the config files from the version linked by @kcs123, the names are the same as the module manager patch from SETIctt uses, so they should work. Can you start a sandbox game and verify that the parts appear in the sph/vab there and thus that it is a tech tree issue?

Reaction wheels should only be available at advFlight, for the mod pack I removed them from early manned parts as well, so until then, it should be a matter of fins/winglets/RCS (available at stability node) and gimbal engines.

Make sure you have VenStockRevamp installed, it offers earlier upper stage gimbal engine and a very useful all inclusive RCS block in the stability node (and a 0.625m heat shield and so on).

[Speedster159]

1 hour ago, Yemo said:

I will probably be unable to test during the week, but looking at the config files from the version linked by @kcs123, the names are the same as the module manager patch from SETIctt uses, so they should work. Can you start a sandbox game and verify that the parts appear in the sph/vab there and thus that it is a tech tree issue?

Reaction wheels should only be available at advFlight, for the mod pack I removed them from early manned parts as well, so until then, it should be a matter of fins/winglets/RCS (available at stability node) and gimbal engines.

Make sure you have VenStockRevamp installed, it offers earlier upper stage gimbal engine and a very useful all inclusive RCS block in the stability node (and a 0.625m heat shield and so on).

Hm.. Surprised. The wings are now showing up on Sandbox either.

Think I'll wait for 1.1 before adding any other mods to my save.

[Yemo]

12 minutes ago, Speedster159 said:

Hm.. Surprised. The wings are now showing up on Sandbox either.

Think I'll wait for 1.1 before adding any other mods to my save.

Most likely an issue with the install path, so it does not find the models/textures or so. I also noticed that the B9procedural version from @Crzyrndm is a lot smaller than the last version from @bac9, though that is probably unrelated, since afair it worked for me the last time.

[Thedas]

I am having an issue where I click on the links for any of the mods on the main page and get a 404 error.  How can I fix this?

 

[Crzyrndm]

1 hour ago, Yemo said:

though that is probably unrelated, since afair it worked for me the last time.

That's down to me not including the alternative textures in the download (by accident. I completely forgot about them :/). I'll just quietly fix that for next time...

[titan357]

12 minutes ago, Thedas said:

I am having an issue where I click on the links for any of the mods on the main page and get a 404 error.  How can I fix this?

 

Kerbal stuff shutdown and thats where the mod is hosted. Until the creator uploads it else where there isnt anyway to get it.

[Yemo]

On 2/16/2016 at 5:02 AM, Crzyrndm said:

That's down to me not including the alternative textures in the download (by accident. I completely forgot about them :/). I'll just quietly fix that for next time...

Ah, that explains it. Never used them will have to try some time.

 

On 2/16/2016 at 4:50 AM, Thedas said:

I am having an issue where I click on the links for any of the mods on the main page and get a 404 error.  How can I fix this?

 

 

On 2/16/2016 at 5:03 AM, titan357 said:

Kerbal stuff shutdown and thats where the mod is hosted. Until the creator uploads it else where there isnt anyway to get it.

It is unfortunate, but a direct and predictable result when the dev/publisher of a game decides not to offer a mod hosting site, which appears adequate to the majority the modders (curse seems to be not accepted as adequate). The awesome mod hosting site from a community member to fill that void went down with this statement:

[Moderator removed defunct website link]

So we will have to wait until the community resurrects or replaces that site (which is done at the moment, but may take several days). Then it will take at least several more days until mod authors reupload their mods and everything is working again including the adjustment of all those ksp-avc and ckan links.

Given the uncertainty/possible hosting/setup issues, amount of time needed for background adjustments and so on, with real life in the background (I will not have access to my main pc until at least next week...) etc, I therefore estimate at least one, probably 2 weeks until the major SETI downloads are generally/publicly available again...

Currently unaffected is just the RemoteTech config, since that download uses github.

edit: The only thing I can reasonably do at the moment is to redirect the downloads to the general farewell statement on kerbalstuff to avoid the impression of a random 404 error.

edit2: It seems that I can not even edit a link without killing the formatting. This new forum is really annoying and apart from the notifications feels like a downgrade. So I just put a disclaimer above the downloads and save my sanity for the ksp-avc/ckan-config/reupload mess.

Edited August 28, 2022 by James Kerman
link removed

[Yemo]

@Thedas, @titan357

Update:

It seems that contingencies will be up much sooner, mainly to allow ckan access to the mods previously hosted on kerbalstuff. I have no idea when the manual download will work again and to what extent, but at the rate some community members work on it, it seems like it will only be a matter (guesstimated 1-3) days until ckan has access to the mods again. All made possible since @SirCmpwn thankfully provided the necessary data from kerbalstuff.

[Yemo]

Next update (this is moving very fast):

Temporary manual downloads are available again, thank you @Jattenalle and everyone involved!

Full temporary kerbalstuff archive available here (search for name of mod author): http://cdn.kspstuff.com/storage/

Forum news on project status:

 

Edited February 16, 2016 by Yemo

[titan357]

10 minutes ago, Yemo said:

Next update (this is moving very fast):

Temporary manual downloads are available again, thank you @Jattenalle and everyone involved!

Full temporary kerbalstuff archive available here (search for name of mod author): http://cdn.kspstuff.com/storage/

Forum news on project status:

Your tech tree mods are the only reason I still play, glad to see you got them back.

 

[SolidJuho]

4 hours ago, Yemo said:

Next update (this is moving very fast):

Temporary manual downloads are available again, thank you @Jattenalle and everyone involved!

Full temporary kerbalstuff archive available here (search for name of mod author): http://cdn.kspstuff.com/storage/

Forum news on project status:

 

Your download site is again down D: