Top level (4 or 5 stars) skills idea

[jlcarneiro]

Hi, I really like this game and the way it is taking after "Beta than Never". And I'd like to contribute with some ideas for the top level skills.

I think 4 and 5 star kerbonauts should be considered something like aces and top aces (actually, achieving these leves is, at least, uncommon)... So, the associated skills should be equally uncommon... What about something like:

• 4 star pilots - in addition to orienting a ship to a target or a maneuver node, would be able to initiate and end burns (quite like what RemoteTech Flight Computer does);
  
• 5 star pilots - in addition to what 4 star pilots do, would be able to execute simple maneuvers, like circulating the current orbit or coming to a relative stop to the current target (quite like what MechJeb does, in a MUCH simpler level, of course!).
  

• 4 star engineers - would be able to get more efficiency from the engines (fuel consumption or power output - quite like what Geordi La Forge would do );
  
• 5 star engineers - would be able to delay overheating on engines.
  

• 4 star scientists - would be able to negate transmission losses;
  
• 5 star scientists - would be able to indicate when there is science to be done (quite like what the ScienceAlert does).
  

What do you think?

[robopilot99]

Most of these sound pretty good. I would definitely enjoy automatic circulation burns. Prepare to be blasted by the vets for your engineering suggestions though.

[jlcarneiro]

Most of these sound pretty good. I would definitely enjoy automatic circulation burns. Prepare to be blasted by the vets for your engineering suggestions though.

Thanks! Actually, any suggestion that make the engineers behave more like engineers than mechanics would be welcome...

[CaptainKipard]

• 4 star pilots - in addition to orienting a ship to a target or a maneuver node, would be able to initiate and end burns (quite like what RemoteTech Flight Computer does);
  
• 5 star pilots - in addition to what 4 star pilots do, would be able to execute simple maneuvers, like circulating the current orbit or coming to a relative stop to the current target (quite like what MechJeb does, in a MUCH simpler level, of course!).
  

That sounds good. I've written kOS scripts for node execution, circularisations and hohmann transfers. They're quite easy to calculate.

• 4 star engineers - would be able to get more efficiency from the engines (fuel consumption or power output - quite like what Geordi La Forge would do );
  
• 5 star engineers - would be able to delay overheating on engines.
  

Noooooo. Similar things were planned but the community reaction was very negative because it's magic.

• 4 star scientists - would be able to negate transmission losses;
  
• 5 star scientists - would be able to indicate when there is science to be done (quite like what the ScienceAlert does).
  

How would you rationalise that?

[vexx32]

I don't particularly like the idea of increasing an engine's efficiency -- I mean, it's not like your kerbal can get down there a fiddle with the engine while it's operating, so there's not a lot they can do. It's slightly more plausible for them to be able to delay or slow down overheating, so I could maybe see that...

I do rather like the idea of the others, even if I'd probably rarely use the pilot ones. I like to circularise my own orbits, for the most part

[StrandedonEarth]

A more realistic use for engineers would be to overthrust the engines, at the expense of quickly overheating, lower ISP, and increased part wear (if that is ever implemented). Excellent for emergency power when Bob realizes they're about to crash.

[Vaporo]

Prepare to be blasted by the vets for your engineering suggestions though.

You said it. There is no realistic way to say that having a skilled engineer on board could raise thrust, efficiency, etc. Actually, I think Squad was considering similar mechanics to what you suggested and rejected it for that reason.

[Superfluous J]

• 4 star scientists - would be able to negate transmission losses;
  
• 5 star scientists - would be able to indicate when there is science to be done (quite like what the ScienceAlert does).
  

How would you rationalise that?

Which one?

For 4 star, I'd rationalize it the same way that having a science lab negates losses (or increases value, same thing essentially). An expert on-site will see something of value that an untrained eye would miss, and they'd think to send that data as well, increasing value.

For 5 star, I'd rationalize it by noting that hopping in and out of a capsule in orbit is a huge pain and some sort of automated system to determine where you are turns drudgery into a mere annoyance.

Luckily in 0.90 you don't need to take any science readings except for those associated with contracts, because the science you get from contracts is so mammoth in comparison you're better off spending your time completing more contracts than mucking about in LKO trying to get all the EVA reports.

[KrazyKrl]

Which one?

For 4 star, I'd rationalize it the same way that having a science lab negates losses (or increases value, same thing essentially). An expert on-site will see something of value that an untrained eye would miss, and they'd think to send that data as well, increasing value.

For 5 star, I'd rationalize it by noting that hopping in and out of a capsule in orbit is a huge pain and some sort of automated system to determine where you are turns drudgery into a mere annoyance.

Luckily in 0.90 you don't need to take any science readings except for those associated with contracts, because the science you get from contracts is so mammoth in comparison you're better off spending your time completing more contracts than mucking about in LKO trying to get all the EVA reports.

I'd rather have them tweaked a bit.

ScienceGuy MkIV: Science containers activated (and crew reports gathered) by ScienceGuy MkIV Are subject to ((ScienceGuy level + 1 ) * (5%(Or some other science bonus)) This would make the bonus science scale with the ScienceGuy's experience.

ScienceGuy MkV: Science Rules mode activates, enabling ScienceAlert type functionality; and extra science lab options relating to samples taken (or goo containers, etc.)

[Pthigrivi]

Yeah have to agree with some of the above on the engine efficiency thing. I'm actually not a huge fan of the current science bonuses for the same reason, and might prefer the transmission loss negation over it. I also quite like circularization burns and science alerts.

There are a couple other threads about this...

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/103961-Things-Kerbals-should-be-able-to-do

[jlcarneiro]

A more realistic use for engineers would be to overthrust the engines, at the expense of quickly overheating, lower ISP, and increased part wear (if that is ever implemented). Excellent for emergency power when Bob realizes they're about to crash.

Great! Liked that one better than my own. It gives the engineers a more especialized role than just fixing things, even if it implicates on damaging the ship. It is an emergency, after all...

Noooooo. Similar things were planned but the community reaction was very negative because it's magic.

Understood.

How would you rationalise that?

Pretty much like 5thHorseman and KrazyKrl did:

For 4 star, I'd rationalize it the same way that having a science lab negates losses (or increases value, same thing essentially). An expert on-site will see something of value that an untrained eye would miss, and they'd think to send that data as well, increasing value.

For 5 star, I'd rationalize it by noting that hopping in and out of a capsule in orbit is a huge pain and some sort of automated system to determine where you are turns drudgery into a mere annoyance.

ScienceGuy MkIV: Science containers activated (and crew reports gathered) by ScienceGuy MkIV Are subject to ((ScienceGuy level + 1 ) * (5%(Or some other science bonus)) This would make the bonus science scale with the ScienceGuy's experience.

ScienceGuy MkV: Science Rules mode activates, enabling ScienceAlert type functionality; and extra science lab options relating to samples taken (or goo containers, etc.)

In other words, a 4-star scientist is very experienced, he knows what piece of data matters most and could investigate the results, enhancing the parts that would be lost on transmission (like an detailed analysis of a sample, instead of a mere description). OTOH, a 5-star is so experienced, he knows that other situations like that usually holds data in a determined way and it would be interesting to investigate under that aspect.

Did I make myself clear? English is not my first language, I miss some expressions...

Edited January 8, 2015 by jlcarneiro

[CaptainKipard]

Ok, the scientist skills ideas also look good.

[dryer_lint]

A more realistic use for engineers would be to overthrust the engines

[tater]

The science stuff is easy to rationalize. It's not that they increase the amount transmitted, it's that they gather better data in the first place. 10 guys can each collect 10kg of rocks, but if ONE is a geologist, his 10kg might be more valuable than the 90kg from all the others combined.

[prophet_01]

A total negation of transmission losses seems rly overpowered. How about that ability only affects temperature, atmo, gravioli and seismic scans. The losses here aren't that realistic in the first place. And regarding goo, material bay and surface samples I would argue that the capabilities of analising samples back at home in a large lab will always be superior to doing that on site with limited ressources and equipment.

I can only backup the mentioned thouhts on engineers. They shouldn't be magicians an emergency switch for engines sounds interesting (VASIMIR anyone? ), but it should reduce isp and overheat faster imo. Overheat reduction as an ability should be treated carefully, especially with an emergency switch in mind.

On pilots I don't rly know about automated burns, maybe it's ok if you still have to start the burn yourself and it only terminates the burn. I'm not at all in favour of automated maneuvers :/ How about a 5 star ability that basically does the same as the trajectories mod -> calculating your course through the atmosphere including drag. That would make them srsly valuable for the player imo

[Synapse]

I'd like to see engineers going on EVA to upgrade things. The obvious contender for me is batteries/pods, by improving their efficiency engineers can improve the battery life. Solar panels go along with this. I wouldn't like to see the engines modified if I'm being honest.

If Squad implemented heat tiles, then engineers could repair broken heat tiles in space for multiple reentries.

[CaptainKipard]

The science stuff is easy to rationalize. It's not that they increase the amount transmitted, it's that they gather better data in the first place. 10 guys can each collect 10kg of rocks, but if ONE is a geologist, his 10kg might be more valuable than the 90kg from all the others combined.

I thought they already did that at lower levels. I don't know I haven't played 0.90 much. <offtopic>Still waiting for a decent tree.</offtopic>

[jlcarneiro]

The science stuff is easy to rationalize. It's not that they increase the amount transmitted, it's that they gather better data in the first place. 10 guys can each collect 10kg of rocks, but if ONE is a geologist, his 10kg might be more valuable than the 90kg from all the others combined.

Exactly! That is what I was trying to say, thanks!

On pilots I don't rly know about automated burns, maybe it's ok if you still have to start the burn yourself and it only terminates the burn. I'm not at all in favour of automated maneuvers :/ How about a 5 star ability that basically does the same as the trajectories mod -> calculating your course through the atmosphere including drag. That would make them srsly valuable for the player imo

Another good point, and another great addition! I think plotting trajectories with drag would also qualify as a 5-star feature easily...

Edited January 8, 2015 by jlcarneiro

[JimmyAgent007]

Id like to see the level 5 engineer and scientist to be a level 1 pilot.

[bdito]

Id like to see the level 5 engineer and scientist to be a level 1 pilot.

I'd like to see that too. As of now I find Engineers and Scientists to be completely useless. I only ever use pilots. I don't want to fly solo with either of them due to the lack of SAS and their perks are pretty much useless.

[Guest]

Engineer:

0 stars - Can warn (and stop warp) if EC level getting low, also reminds to extend solar arrays if they present and retracted when EC is low.

1 stars - Can repack parachutes, also warns about low LF/OX/MP

2 stars - Can repair wheels, solar arrays, landing legs and antennas, also warns if vehicle is near surface and descending, and landing lags are retracted.

3 stars - Can disconnect, carry, store and attach (with new translate-rotate widgets) select small parts (partial KAS)

4 stars - Same for medium sized parts. Also can connect two refueling ports (new part) with hose/cable to refuel/recharge ships. (partial KAS, but I think that refueling ports should not be attached everywhere, may be all tanks should have them, or special hub, or compete fuel management overhaul ...)

5 stars - Can retrieve a small to medium probe core from container, setup it as new spaceship, then retrieve and attach all needed small and medium parts to build a functioning probe.

(may be any other kerbal can hold probe core in place while S5 Engineer works with it)

(may be even every kerbal on EVA should be able to retrieve, store, carry and hold in place (in hands) all the parts, but only skilled engineer can work on them.

P.S.

And yes, right, engineer and scientist counts as pilot with penalty stars -3. Or 4-5 stars kerbonaut should be able to pick second and, then, third skillset.

P.P.S.

All actions should be animated and voiced.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Guest
Damn it, new ideas

[klgraham1013]

4 star engineers - would be able to get more efficiency from the engines (fuel consumption or power output - quite like what Geordi La Forge would do );

This is exactly what the community hated about the original KXP idea. I'm not fully against it, but I think that opinion belongs to me and one other guy...maybe two.

- - - Updated - - -

In my opinion, KAS and KER should be made stock and tied to the engineer level. Maybe KER could also be tied to the other classes.

Also part degradation without the random failures of Dang It! Engineers could use spare parts to bring the engines, etc. back up to full speed. Nothing ever fully breaks, just requires maintenance.

[tater]

The base problem with scientists is that the science aspect of the game is so bad to begin with. Mission planners can tell any astronaut to pick up rocks on the Mun, for example, and the results will be the same. Where it differs is in the choice of rocks to pick. Regular astronauts can also run most experiments on orbit, but some might have a better chance of success with the actual scientist doing the work. It's also hurt in game by the fact that science is so easy to come by that any limits don't really matter.

I think I prefer the idea that pilot, engineering, and science are not the sole role, but attributes like characters in a role playing game. Skill=0 acts like a current pilot with no level yet, add a new level below for the equivalent of a current Engineer acting as pilot (I'll use a - for this), which is "no skill." P0 can use SAS, P- cannot. 2/3 of new astronauts would then nominally be pilots.

Jeb might start as Pilot 1, Engineer -, Scientist 0. Bill would be P0, E1, S-. Bob P0, E-, S1.

New recruits get 2 zeros and a -. (or even 1 skill point worth divided by three where two 0s equal 1 skill, so you might randomly get a P-,E-,S1, or a P1, E-, S-)

So Zebulon Kerman might start at P0, E0, S-. When they gain skill, it will be to one attribute. As soon as one attribute dominates, have the chance for additional skill much more likely in that attribute. So at his first skill upgrade, if Zeb gains P1, his next skill upgrades, instead of being an equal chance of P/E/S, might be 2/3 to gain in P, and 1/6 in each of E and S.

Then the game should perhaps drop the science points awarded across the board, with increments up for S skill.

Edited January 8, 2015 by tater

[Guest]

Good idea, Tater.

- - - Updated - - -

Actually, I want Kerbals to be able to interact not only with environment, but also with player, with voiced hints and warnings, for example.

[tater]

Someone had posted somewhere that perhaps engineers should be able to disassemble ships. That would be cool. Different levels might have cutoffs of what they can remove. E0-3 might have limited removals (landing legs, solar panels, etc), while higher skill might allow for removing fuel tanks that are attached, or even an engine. This only really has utility for problems (say you are on the Mun, and you think you lack the dv to reach orbit, but maybe you can if you strip the lander).

Another possible engineer use. Add in Life Support in a VERY simple way (like Snacks!). It has a single value for all consumable LS needs. In reality of course some LS is consumables, but a lot is recovering water, scrubbing air, etc. This is where the engineer would come in. E skill would allow longer duration flights as the engineer would be tweaking/maintaining the CO2 scrubbers, etc. Not by vast amounts, but enough to matter on really long flights. All those systems involve plumbing, and face it, they will require routine maintenance to be most effective. In game terms the E skill would decrease LS consumption by X% per day for the ship, perhaps X = skill level.

Edited January 8, 2015 by tater