Flowers grown on the ISS, what's next?

[kerbiloid]

13 hours ago, DerekL1963 said:

There are little critters in the outside air too, so yes - we are inhaling them 24/7/365.   And if we only "sometimes" open windows, then we are not "every day decreasing their concentration".   Try again.

Trying again.
When there is a rotten pizza in a room, you would open a window to "refresh" your air.
Also you would better throw out mildewed fruits from your room - because all these things are an edible substrate for microbes and fungi.
In a spaceship you can't just open a window.
 

Edited February 16, 2016 by kerbiloid

[DerekL1963]

46 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

Trying again.
When there is a rotten pizza in a room, you would open a window to "refresh" your air.
Also you would better throw out mildewed fruits from your room - because all these things are an edible substrate for microbes and fungi.

So?  Since we aren't talking about a sudden growth and spread of microorganisms in a place they previously hadn't been present, this isn't relevant in any way, shape, or form.

You already breathe soil microorganisms (and much worse microorganisms) 24/7/365 every single day of your life.

[p1t1o]

Unless you want to keep your ship totally sterile, you're gonna have to live with bacteria. Spacecraft air already has to be forcefully circulated and refreshed, its no big deal to keep the ship from fermenting in its own juices - maybe just run the air past a strong UV light to keep things under control.

Even without excrement processing (which probably isn't going to be an open-container process) there are plenty of bacteria being sprayed out of our bodies pretty much constantly anyway, so there will already be infection-control measures in place.

If bacteria is a big concern, you could freeze-dry/sterilise the excrement still use that as fertiliser (there is still benefit from the various nutrients and things present.)

[Cirocco]

On the whole mildew debate: while we do indeed breathe bacteria 24/7, I tend to agree with the fact that in a completely closed environment there's a risk of elevated concentrations. People on earth don't live 24/7 in an enclosed area with what are essentially a bunch of incubators. There are a bunch of micro-organisms that are totally harmless in low concentrations might become a problem in higher concentrations. That being said: mildew is a fungus and any airborne fungus could easily be filtered out of the air with high-efficiency particle air filters. I believe there also exist certain catalysts that can be used to kill any bacteria and fungi that are caught by the filters (they break down the membranes). They're currently being investigated (and possibly even already used) in air-conditioning systems of large office buildings to combat "sick building" syndrome.

So while mildew and other possible pathogens can be a concern and certainly merit attention, I don't think that there's much there that can't already be solved with currently available technology. (semi-)isolating the greenhouse and running air filters seems like a perfectly acceptable solution.

In response to the OP:

1) As to what kind of achievement this is compared to the cabbage and tomatoes: well, any plants that we can grow is good news. Not sure why zinias were chosen, you'd have to ask the project engineers at NASA

2) for long-time journeys: there's definitely something to be said for growing your own, fresh food on month-long away missions, both for psychological and nutritional reasons. I don't see fresh gardens becoming the main food source on long missions (way too much stuff to and weight required to send up into space and push around), but they could definitely be a supplement. Maybe like something the astronauts would eat once every few weeks.

3) what kind of traits would we need to change to grow in zero-g? Not that much I think. We've managed to grow pretty much unaltered (to my knowledge) cabbage/lettuce on the ISS, so just to grow it I don't think much alteration would be required. What we do might need to do is optimize the growth rate and yield. Grow stuff as fast and big as possible with as little space and weight as possible. But that's also kind of already a goal here back on earth: make better crops with less energy invested.

[p1t1o]

Another plausible scenario for growing food in a hostile environment would be something like "quorn".

If you are not aware of it, "Quorn" is a meat-substitute for vegetarian-types, its essentially a bland (they add flavouring), fibrous, protein-rich fungus which is grown in a vat. All you need to do is feed it with a nutrient broth and keep it at the right temperature and it can be almost continuously operated.

It can also be run at almost any scale, from lab-scale to ultra-large.

At least its something to supplement an all-vegetable diet.

 

    

[fredinno]

8 hours ago, Cirocco said:

On the whole mildew debate: while we do indeed breathe bacteria 24/7, I tend to agree with the fact that in a completely closed environment there's a risk of elevated concentrations. People on earth don't live 24/7 in an enclosed area with what are essentially a bunch of incubators. There are a bunch of micro-organisms that are totally harmless in low concentrations might become a problem in higher concentrations. That being said: mildew is a fungus and any airborne fungus could easily be filtered out of the air with high-efficiency particle air filters. I believe there also exist certain catalysts that can be used to kill any bacteria and fungi that are caught by the filters (they break down the membranes). They're currently being investigated (and possibly even already used) in air-conditioning systems of large office buildings to combat "sick building" syndrome.

So while mildew and other possible pathogens can be a concern and certainly merit attention, I don't think that there's much there that can't already be solved with currently available technology. (semi-)isolating the greenhouse and running air filters seems like a perfectly acceptable solution.

In response to the OP:

1) As to what kind of achievement this is compared to the cabbage and tomatoes: well, any plants that we can grow is good news. Not sure why zinias were chosen, you'd have to ask the project engineers at NASA

2) for long-time journeys: there's definitely something to be said for growing your own, fresh food on month-long away missions, both for psychological and nutritional reasons. I don't see fresh gardens becoming the main food source on long missions (way too much stuff to and weight required to send up into space and push around), but they could definitely be a supplement. Maybe like something the astronauts would eat once every few weeks.

3) what kind of traits would we need to change to grow in zero-g? Not that much I think. We've managed to grow pretty much unaltered (to my knowledge) cabbage/lettuce on the ISS, so just to grow it I don't think much alteration would be required. What we do might need to do is optimize the growth rate and yield. Grow stuff as fast and big as possible with as little space and weight as possible. But that's also kind of already a goal here back on earth: make better crops with less energy invested.

In a space station/space ship, "big as possible" is not always good- in fact, smaller crops with higher yield or nutrition work better due to the low amount of space on a spaceship.

[fredinno]

On February 15, 2016 at 8:00 AM, kerbiloid said:

So, if put a space grown tomato and forget about it, it will not rot, fermentate and become covered with mildew?
 

I think it would still go bad, but you'd probably eat fresh food ASAP anyways, so not really a huge deal

On February 15, 2016 at 9:43 AM, Mikki said:

A average human body consists of about 10 billion (US 10 trillion?) cells, above and inside us live some 100 billion bacterias of gigantic diversity which make up to two kilogram of our actual bodyweight.
In one year we deposit our whole bodyweight in form of these bacteria.

Nobody can tell which one is "pathogen", us,... or our little guests.
One thing is sure, without our little guests, we won`t do much at all anymore, except stop living quite immediatly, some hours left maybe. 

Let`s give our little friends something good to digest!
 

Still, bacteria is a bad thing if you have too much. Lest not foget that the immune system is supressed in zero-G.

On February 15, 2016 at 9:53 AM, DerekL1963 said:

There are little critters in the outside air too, so yes - we are inhaling them 24/7/365.   And if we only "sometimes" open windows, then we are not "every day decreasing their concentration".   Try again.

Actually, houses have ventilation systems that constantly circulate air in and out of a building- partially due to the need of oxygen to run heaters.

[Mikki]

I am no expert but i think there is no way for higher developed biology travelling interplanetary distances without artificial gravity (spinning habitat) and a "large" miniscale artificial ecosystem to support a kind of natural (in fact heavy supported partial) nutrition chain.
It might end up unbuildable and a desaster for all invited corporations, i see no chance the next 50 years.
How should we propell a gigantic "insert weight of final megastructure" metric ton construction to a destination like mars? Is it worth the efforts if even doable?
Any random instability in this system might end lethal for all participating entities, kind of a experiment without revert or emergency exit.
Building such a habitat in space should be the main next step for human kind.
However, investments in wars and other resources are still more "economic" for some people, sadly.

Edited February 16, 2016 by Mikki
Spell, and typo8O

[DerekL1963]

51 minutes ago, fredinno said:

Actually, houses have ventilation systems that constantly circulate air in and out of a building- partially due to the need of oxygen to run heaters.

At least in the US, relatively few houses have deliberate systems that circulate air in and out.  That's why sick building syndrome became, and still is, an issue - modern buildings are built very tight to conserve energy and counterflow heat exchangers to combat this have really only relatively recently become a thing.   Even with a 'tight' house, combustion based heating takes relatively small amounts of air relative to the volume of the house so they just rely on leakage to make up the difference.   (Though there's starting to be a trend towards taking combustion air from the outside rather than using air you've spent money to heat.)

[SgtSomeone]

 

12 hours ago, fredinno said:

I think it would still go bad, but you'd probably eat fresh food ASAP anyways, so not really a huge deal

Still, bacteria is a bad thing if you have too much. Lest not foget that the immune system is supressed in zero-G.

That was one of the things that interested me in the original story; one of their flower stalks failed and became moldy because the water bulbed around the shoot instead of dripping to the ground. They had the astronaut don a dust mask when he snipped it to dispose of it. Which also means they must have had those masks on board already and so were anticipating... something like this. Before it came up in this thread, I had never really thought about the fact that they really were introducing a whole new flora mixture from the soil into the ISS 'biosphere' (for better or for worse)

 

11 hours ago, Mikki said:

I am no expert but i think there is no way for higher developed biology travelling interplanetary distances without artificial gravity (spinning habitat) and a "large" miniscale artificial ecosystem to support a kind of natural (in fact heavy supported partial) nutrition chain.
It might end up unbuildable and a desaster for all invited corporations, i see no chance the next 50 years.
How should we propell a gigantic "insert weight of final megastructure" metric ton construction to a destination like mars? Is it worth the efforts if even doable?
Any random instability in this system might end lethal for all participating entities, kind of a experiment without revert or emergency exit.
Building such a habitat in space should be the main next step for human kind.
However, investments in wars and other resources are still more "economic" for some people, sadly.

I'm wasn't quite sure if you were saying your requirements for artificial gravity and the mini ecosystem were related, but I don't really think either of them are necessary, at least from the perspective of food (ignoring zero-g effects on crew). @Scotius had mentioned earlier that vine-like plants with tendrils would do well in zero-G, I can only imagine the kind of 3D structure you could use for them to grow. It'd be like a jungle! I'm also not convinced about needing a nutrition chain; every time there's a step in the chain, there's a loss of energy (On earth, 100 calories of meat need a ton more resources to produce than 100 calories of plant) so you would want to minimize those steps. Even if that means growing "steak" directly from cells in a petri dish (like @p1t1o's vat thing). I could entertain an argument for ecosystem on inter-stellar class trips (100+ years), but that's way too far in the future to think about for me.

Edited February 17, 2016 by SgtSomeone
Added tags

[Cirocco]

14 hours ago, fredinno said:

In a space station/space ship, "big as possible" is not always good- in fact, smaller crops with higher yield or nutrition work better due to the low amount of space on a spaceship.

correct, I wasn't clear enough on my meaning, I meant "edible parts as big as possible", but even that is not entirely right. The most correct would indeed be something along the lines of "most yield". Thanks for the correction.

23 hours ago, p1t1o said:

Another plausible scenario for growing food in a hostile environment would be something like "quorn".

If you are not aware of it, "Quorn" is a meat-substitute for vegetarian-types, its essentially a bland (they add flavouring), fibrous, protein-rich fungus which is grown in a vat. All you need to do is feed it with a nutrient broth and keep it at the right temperature and it can be almost continuously operated.

It can also be run at almost any scale, from lab-scale to ultra-large.

At least its something to supplement an all-vegetable diet.

 

    

Bioreactors! Oh god such memories to my time at university. Good times, good times...  Thanks for that

 

 

[Azimech]

On 15-2-2016 at 6:43 PM, Mikki said:

"A average human body consists of about 10 billion (US 10 trillion?) cells, above and inside us live some 100 billion bacterias" 
 

Latest estimates are around 3.72 x 10¹³ human cells.

On 14-2-2016 at 7:53 AM, RainDreamer said:

Oh they do. In fact, they have a person in NASA whose sole job is to sniff almost all the stuff they are sending to ISS:

 

I wonder if that includes astronauts.

[fredinno]

23 hours ago, Mikki said:

I am no expert but i think there is no way for higher developed biology travelling interplanetary distances without artificial gravity (spinning habitat) and a "large" miniscale artificial ecosystem to support a kind of natural (in fact heavy supported partial) nutrition chain.
It might end up unbuildable and a desaster for all invited corporations, i see no chance the next 50 years.
How should we propell a gigantic "insert weight of final megastructure" metric ton construction to a destination like mars? Is it worth the efforts if even doable?
Any random instability in this system might end lethal for all participating entities, kind of a experiment without revert or emergency exit.
Building such a habitat in space should be the main next step for human kind.
However, investments in wars and other resources are still more "economic" for some people, sadly.

Well, we can technically go to Mars bringing everything we need, aside from fuel, which would be refueled. Same for Ceres.

[Mikki]

5 minutes ago, fredinno said:

Well, we can technically go to Mars bringing everything we need, aside from fuel, which would be refueled. Same for Ceres.

...well... i remember the physical status of some Kosmonauts with extended 0g experience at their return to surface. A zero g environment for a manned (and lightly planted) excursion to mars is nothing a mental sane astronaut can be convinced to, literally suicide.

Any male or female, Kosmo- Taiko- or Astronaut boarding such a vessel must be convinced leaving earth probably forever due to lethal events, which is hard to manage and broadcast back to earth.

The technology must be safe and healthy. Anything else doesn`t make sense.