IgorZ

[1.7.1] Kerbal Attachment System (KAS) v1.4 - NOT COMPATIBLE WITH KSP 1.7.0

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Sheesh, now I understand where the confusion comes from. I said I wanted to attach parts without a Kerbal - that was way too generic... sorry. I didn't mean for construction, I was thinking about KAS parts specifically. Like, make the winch cable snap into the socket automatically. Even WITH Kerbals nearby that can be frustrating, since the Kerbal might sit inside the crane, or would need to climb on a high part for attaching the payload to the cable. As for refueling, well, that's probably possible with just docking, as long as you're in space or on the ground (and are perfectly aligned, which can be hard if the vessels have different height due to landing legs behaving differently depending on mass), but e.g. air refueling is not possible.

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6 hours ago, L0ck0n said:

Now its hard because parts collide with each other because strut is too short.

If I were building that wide vessels, I'd just extend the the joint point. E.g. with a girder segment. It will add couple of extra parts into your build, but it's a way better than adding a new part into the game. It would be very hard to cover all the sizes with the new parts, but using the structural extenders is a very easy and flexible solution.

6 hours ago, L0ck0n said:

When you join vessels with rigid joint, they act like one vessel, so you can transfer crew or command them all.

To make two vessels acting as one you don't need a rigid joint, you need to dock them. RTS-1 part gives this ability even though it doesn't create a rigid joint. And the length of RTS connection is about the same length as the legacy KAS struts.

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20 minutes ago, infinite_monkey said:

Like, make the winch cable snap into the socket automatically. Even WITH Kerbals nearby

In the old KAS this field was covered by harpoons and magnets. Eventually, the new KAS will have them too. However, those parts don't snap into the socket, they simple attach to the target part at the place of contact. Given there is no kerbal that can walk and pickup/align the connector, that's the only realistic behavior. If walking back and forth between the part and the crane is not an option, bring a second kerbal :) That's what you'd do IRL.

And I fully agree with the @taniwha, KIS & KAS are both about doing stuff in EVA. Meaning, you should control a kerbal or a part that realistically pretends to be a kerbal replacement (e.g. a remotely controlled robotic arm). The existing TJ parts are, basically, EVA versions of the docking ports. Remove the EVA part, and you'll get a bare docking port. The TB and RTS parts look more complicated, but in the end they serve the same purpose - connecting vessels by hands due to the vessels cannot align themselves to use the stock docking ports.

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As someone transitioning from the legacy parts,  I couldn't figure out how to link my JS-1 joints (no menu came up)... you NEED the RTS-1 box for the hose to connect to joints now.

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12 hours ago, IgorZ said:

If I were building that wide vessels, I'd just extend the the joint point. E.g. with a girder segment. It will add couple of extra parts into your build, but it's a way better than adding a new part into the game. It would be very hard to cover all the sizes with the new parts, but using the structural extenders is a very easy and flexible solution.

To make two vessels acting as one you don't need a rigid joint, you need to dock them. RTS-1 part gives this ability even though it doesn't create a rigid joint. And the length of RTS connection is about the same length as the legacy KAS struts.

i see now, i missed that dock button in RTS part, now its even better for me than legacy struts. Thx for help!

Edited by L0ck0n

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11 hours ago, IgorZ said:

In the old KAS this field was covered by harpoons and magnets. Eventually, the new KAS will have them too. However, those parts don't snap into the socket, they simple attach to the target part at the place of contact. Given there is no kerbal that can walk and pickup/align the connector, that's the only realistic behavior. If walking back and forth between the part and the crane is not an option, bring a second kerbal :) That's what you'd do IRL.

And I fully agree with the @taniwha, KIS & KAS are both about doing stuff in EVA. Meaning, you should control a kerbal or a part that realistically pretends to be a kerbal replacement (e.g. a remotely controlled robotic arm). The existing TJ parts are, basically, EVA versions of the docking ports. Remove the EVA part, and you'll get a bare docking port. The TB and RTS parts look more complicated, but in the end they serve the same purpose - connecting vessels by hands due to the vessels cannot align themselves to use the stock docking ports.

Yay for harpoons/magnets/grappling hooks. I'd suggest making them controllable via a separate window like the winch, as they are not part of the original vessel once the winch is not fully retracted anymore. Auto-snap-in was an idea to mimick how real cranes lift up containers: they have spreaders that lock to the containers perfectly, so you don't have to hit the center of mass by sheer luck (given that the container itself is balanced).

"Remotely controlled robotic arm" - that's basically what I wanted. A part with limited range (e.g. 3m like the kerbals) that I can mount on a rover. I think that's realistic, and that's how real bases are gonna be built.

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16 hours ago, infinite_monkey said:

"Remotely controlled robotic arm" - that's basically what I wanted

I want to make it too. However, it's a challenge. A static part that looks like a "robotic arm" seems not too complicated. However, it won't be too exciting for the new players. I remember myself when I came into this game. I don't want to repeat this experience for the other newcomers.

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On 2/28/2019 at 5:16 AM, VitaminZ said:

As someone transitioning from the legacy parts,  I couldn't figure out how to link my JS-1 joints (no menu came up)... you NEED the RTS-1 box for the hose to connect to joints now.

In the new KAS you cannot connect two JS-1 sockets. In the new KAS there is a source of the link and there is a target of the link. JS-1 parts are targets. Sources could be: TJs, TB, Winches or RTS. All, except the winches, allow docking the parts to create a single vessel. However, there is no direct replacement for the old KAS pipes. You need to decide what function you need in your connection, and choose the part that fits it the best. IMHO, the most flexible replacement for the old KAS pipes is the RTS part. If you were using those pipes to reinforce the vessel structure, then TJ is you choice.

I have ideas of further improvements of KAS. Including a part that would allow behavior very similar to what old KAS was offering. However, it's a long term plan. Don't expect it implemented in a month or two.

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On 2/19/2019 at 3:10 AM, IgorZ said:

@taniwha @Espatie

I'd be appreciated if you could give me coordinates that I could use in the stock game "place vessel" feature. It would help me testing this issue a lot. Who knows, may be there is a workaround? It would be not the first, nor the last "just for this case" code in KIS.

Mun: 0-0-43N, 53-17-35E

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  1. Waiting update for 1.6.1 Version Of KSP, basically, cant find 1.5.1 Version on Internet, so, I wanna play with KAS And KIS
  2. Need Russian translate. [If already exist, sorry, didnt  knew]

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50 minutes ago, KerbalST said:

Waiting update for 1.6.1 Version Of KSP, basically, cant find 1.5.1 Version on Internet, so, I wanna play with KAS And KIS

KAS works just fine in 1.6.1 for now, until @IgorZ gets around to making an update :)

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4 hours ago, RealKerbal3x said:

KAS works just fine in 1.6.1 for now, until @IgorZ gets around to making an update :)

Well, its saying "Unsupported Version 1.6.1, Please use 1.5.1"

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Posted (edited)
51 minutes ago, KerbalST said:

Well, its saying "Unsupported Version 1.6.1, Please use 1.5.1"

What specifically is saying its unsupported? AVC? CKAN?  These apps don'treally  know what works and what doesn't. It's just a warning that the current release was compiled against a different version of KSP. The odds are highly likely that anything compiled for 1.4 or later runs just fine on 1.6.1. There are very few .dll breaking changes between versions.

Edited by Tonka Crash

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1 hour ago, KerbalST said:

Well, its saying "Unsupported Version 1.6.1, Please use 1.5.1"

That doesn’t mean it doesn’t work, it just means you’re using the mod on a version that it wasn’t made for. KSP updates since 1.4 have broken hardly any mods.

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7 hours ago, KerbalST said:
  1. Waiting update for 1.6.1 Version Of KSP, basically, cant find 1.5.1 Version on Internet, so, I wanna play with KAS And KIS
  2. Need Russian translate. [If already exist, sorry, didnt  knew]

You simply set Steam to load the "beta" that is 1.5.1.

Now, if you're talking a pirate version, it's too good a game for that, walk the plank!

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Posted (edited)

No offense to @IgorZ but I've always found the TJ1 and TJ2 links too short for anyplace I would want to use them. This morning I figured out how they are configured and made some XL versions if anyone is interested. I doubled the length of the piston portion and added a 5th segment to get me to just over a 5m extended length. 

The Stock lengths (retracted and extended) are to the left with my new XL versions to the right. The white structural tube is 5m tall.

uyahRpQ.png

Patches in the spoiler:

Spoiler

+PART[KAS.TJ1]:FINAL // Start with TJ-1 fixed telescopic Joint
{
        @name = KAS.TJ1XL // Extra Long TJ-1
        @title = TJ-1XL Fixed Telescopic Joint
        @entryCost *= 2.2
        @cost *= 2.2    // A little more than double the weight and cost for extra materials
        @mass *= 2.2
        @MODULE[KASRendererTelescopicPipe]
        {
                @pistonsCount = 5 // Add a segment over base TJ1
                @pistonModelScale = 1.1,2.0,1.1 // Double the length of each segment
                                                // +10% diameter for extra segment
        }
        @MODULE[KASJointRigid]
        {
                // Lengths eyeballed using Node Helper pivot to pivot for fully
                // retracted and extended. Don't think that they need more precision.
                @minLinkLength =  1.325
                @maxLinkLength =  5.145
        }
}
+PART[KAS.TJ2]:FINAL // Start with TJ-2 free telescopic Joint
{
        @name = KAS.TJ2XL // Extra Long TJ-2
        @title = TJ-2XL Free Telescopic Joint
        @entryCost *= 2.2
        @cost *= 2.2    // A little more than double the weight and cost for extra materials
        @mass *= 2.2
        @MODULE[KASRendererTelescopicPipe]
        {
                @pistonsCount = 5 // Add a segment over base TJ2
                @pistonModelScale = 1.1,2.0,1.1 // Double the length of each segment
                                                // +10% diameter for extra segment
        }
        @MODULE[KASJointTwoEndsSphere]
        {
                // Lengths eyeballed using Node Helper pivot to pivot for fully
                // retracted and extended. Don't think that they need more precision.
                @minLinkLength =  1.325
                @maxLinkLength =  5.145
        }
}

 

 

Edited by Tonka Crash

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13 hours ago, Tonka Crash said:

This morning I figured out how they are configured and made some XL versions if anyone is interested

You're the man! With the debug menu which will be released in the next version guessing will become much easier.

However, keep in mind that the maximum length of the TJ parts is limited by the kerbal reach distance. If the target is too distant to aim it, then no go :) 

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With KIS, I had trouble grabbing some of the larger hab-modules from MKS due to the reach-limit of kerbals (or rather the diameter of the modules).

I had cranes and flatbeds on site so i simulated using them as well. I also had a small akita rover with commandseats on a platform for collaborations from more kerbals to increase total liftable mass.

I used this snipplet to slightly increase reach and liftstrength of the kerbals.

Spoiler

//KIS
@KISConfig:AFTER[KIS]
{
    %EvaPickup
    {
        //Increase reach from 3 to 5m
        @maxDistance = 5
        //Increase mass from 1 to 2
        @grabMaxMass = 2
    }
}

 

Caution: This was in the 1.3.1 KSP tho. If KIS configs have changed, the code in spoiler wont work.

Hope this might help someone else that have the same reaching troubles.

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On 3/7/2019 at 12:35 AM, IgorZ said:

However, keep in mind that the maximum length of the TJ parts is limited by the kerbal reach distance. If the target is too distant to aim it, then no go :) 

I'm finding the practical limit is less than I anticipated. The primary limitations is the range where the GUI elements of a KAS part's menu can be activated seems to be closer to 1m than 3m. I noticed a while ago this range is unaffected by the KIS maxDistance. Which is fine as it's a different mod but seems to be pretty restrictive.

I was placing some of my extended TJ1/TJ2 parts last night and was finding I needed to be much closer to the attached end  of the TJ1 before I could get the KAS gui menu to active and let me select the target. I had anticipated being able to stand around the midpoint of a link and activate it, but for a 3.5m link I couldn't activate the GUI while at the midpoint and definitely needed to be close to the attached end of the link rather than the free end. (or may it was the cg I needed to be close to) 

The only other thing I noticed was the parked position would be more useful as a slider for zero to 180 instead of three buttons for up/down/forward. This would let you move around the link to have a better idea of the reach of the parts. 

ZYczxn7.jpg

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Just recently had a bug or what i think is one... 

While working with KIS / KAS the volume of the OKEB-75 Photo Voltaic Array (Near Future Solar, NFS ) is 786,166 Liters. Because of this it's impossible to add an extra solar array into one of the KIS containers. Keep in mind that the K55-XL Meglador Array is 1134 Liters for comparison.

Side note: After posting this report with the NFS developer, he suggested that the calculations for the skinned mesh maybe off.

Thanks in advance!

-Redacted

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59 minutes ago, Redacted said:

Just recently had a bug or what i think is one... 

While working with KIS / KAS the volume of the OKEB-75 Photo Voltaic Array (Near Future Solar, NFS ) is 786,166 Liters. Because of this it's impossible to add an extra solar array into one of the KIS containers. Keep in mind that the K55-XL Meglador Array is 1134 Liters for comparison.

Side note: After posting this report with the NFS developer, he suggested that the calculations for the skinned mesh maybe off.

Thanks in advance!

-Redacted

Are you getting this volume in editor or EVA?

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@IgorZ

While in VAB as i can’t load the cargo to perform the required EVA. The other panels I’ve tried fit easily and often i can carry 2-6 of them depending on the cantainer / item volume.

Note: All installed mods are up-to-date.

If you’d like i can make a screen-shot of this tomorrow and post it.

 

Redacted

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12 minutes ago, Redacted said:

While in VAB as i can’t load the cargo to perform the required EVA. The other panels I’ve tried fit easily and often i can carry 2-6 of them depending on the cantainer / item volume.

Try adding the part on the vessel, then drag-drop from it into container instead of dragging from the editor panel. Does it help? Some part models are designed in the retracted state, this makes them insanely large when calculating volume.

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8 hours ago, IgorZ said:

Try adding the part on the vessel, then drag-drop from it into container instead of dragging from the editor panel. Does it help? Some part models are designed in the retracted state, this makes them insanely large when calculating volume.

Will try this out and report back....

Anyways, while this be a work-around, doesnt this just strike you as wrong? Any real life object that can be broken down for storage should have less volume then before.

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6 minutes ago, Redacted said:

Any real life object that can be broken down for storage should have less volume then before.

Feel free to suggest a reliable algorithm of "breaking down" an arbitrary part into the compact parts. If the suggestion is physical enough, it may be implemented ;)  For the start, let's break down S6-3600, LV-T30 and OX-4W. Which one will have what volume and why? Random values from the sky don't count, there must be a formula applicable to any part in the game.

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