Asteroid Station / Catching your own Moons

[SpaceTrashCan]

Hi

I've played the game for quite a while now, i've buld stations and have been to Jool to. Now i'm fokussing on Asteroids. And i have 3 Questions, some of you can maybe answer me

1. I mostly only find Class C and D Asteroids. Class E ones are quit rare are they?

2. I want to catch myself an Class D or E Asteroid and bring it to low Orbit to build sort of a Base or Station on it. Do any of you have experience with that or have inspiring Asteroid Bases build? (Because i'm kinda always thinking about star wars like asteroid bases here )

3. So I've already caught myself a Class D one and got it in a almost circular Orbit (as close as my skill level allows it haha). And i talked to a friend about it, if thats now a moon (natural satelitte) or a "unnatural" satelitte (since it was not captured by natural forces).  I would say it counts as a Moon, and my Kerbin now has 3 Moons What do you think about that? o.O

 

Thanks for the answers in Advance

 

Sorry for the Bad spelling

[Snark]

Moving to Gameplay Questions.

33 minutes ago, SpaceTrashCan said:

1. I mostly only find Class C and D Asteroids. Class E ones are quit rare are they?

Not especially rare.  Just poke around all those "?" icons, and if you don't see any Class E among them, wait a few (Kerbal) weeks and try again.

33 minutes ago, SpaceTrashCan said:

3. So I've already caught myself a Class D one and got it in a almost circular Orbit (as close as my skill level allows it haha). And i talked to a friend about it, if thats now a moon (natural satelitte) or a "unnatural" satelitte (since it was not captured by natural forces).  I would say it counts as a Moon, and my Kerbin now has 3 Moons What do you think about that? o.O

I'd say it counts if you think it counts.  It's the joy of a free-play game like KSP, you get to make your own rules. 

For what it's worth, the game doesn't think it's a "moon"-- asteroids aren't treated the way celestial bodies are.  (They don't have gravity, they don't have fixed orbits, they have no SoI.)  In game terms, an asteroid is modeled simply as a part, i.e. as if it were just an unusually large and lumpy fuel tank.  (Which is how a lot of KSP players use them...)

As for advice in capturing:  other folks can advise better than I can, since I don't go in for asteroid shenanigans much (still have PTSD from the days when the Klaw frequently destroyed the universe on a routine basis).  If you're going for a low orbit, though, I expect aerobraking will help a fair bit with the fuel bill.

[SpaceTrashCan]

Thanks for this answer.

Gonna look harder for a Class E one then

Yeah to me its a moon for sure xD

[Tyko]

I've captured quite a few asteroid, including Class E. Some helpful tricks:

• Intercept the asteroid outside if Kerbin's SOI - the further away you are, the lower DV your maneuvers are.
• Use Nuclear engines if you have the tech. They are higher ISP so your fuel will go further. The burn times can get pretty long
• Bring lots of Reaction Wheels - turning the asteroid is a pain and can take a long time.
• Learn to use Hardware Acceleration - by pressing Alt while increasing your time warp. This will allow you to accelerate time by up to 4X when you're actually burning your engines or rotating your asteroid. (be aware that this can sometimes glitch, so quicksave before doing it)
• Lastly, if you have mining and ISRU technology, you can send a ship out with mining/refining capacity and actually mine for fuel along the way. This means you don't have to carry all of your fuel with you.

Here's a pic of my asteroid capture rig including the mining components. 

Edited January 4, 2017 by Tyko

[Sharpy]

I've got enough experience with Class E that I found them boring. Currently installed a patch that brings the asteroids two classes up, former class C is currently class E sized. Still need to capture a new one, but caught a glimpse of what the new Class E looks like... you enter into the 2.3km physics bubble and brake rapidly because it's so close!

- Asteroids are very ore-rich, but can (and WILL) be depleted rather rapidly, unlike planets where ore is more scarce but never runs out. If you want a Class E, you won't get around a craft with a big ISRU (small one has the same ore usage but lousy fuel production!).

- Pusher crafts are wobble-prone. Make a puller tug that can drag the asteroid.

- don't skimp on thrust. Using LV-N is quite a bit of a chore. Rhino is currently my engine of choice, although Vector isn't that bad.

 

Some of my tugs:

This is Claymore, awesome power, great at pulling Class E. It doesn't quite need that many ISRUs. It's mostly stock, only Klaw tweakscaled, and a KIS container for stuff. But I had a pure stock version and it worked fine, just the 1.25-2.5m converter was a weak point that liked to snap. It's better to use only MK3 parts for all structural needs, as they have a huge breaking force. Actually... it's a little too big for Class E. Handles them with very little effort, depletes them a little too fast.

Dirk: meant for smaller asteroids. Never actually got to try it, as I realized the small ISRU is a really bad choice.

Curtana: Initially intended for class C, but drains them way too fast. I believe it would be just right for smaller Class E.

Claymore 2. Almost pure mod craft. Nuclear reactor for power, 3.5m ISRU, Tremor drills from the Mining Expansion. Applying it to a Class E had similar results as applying Curtana to Class C. Simply put, there are no asteroids big enough for it to handle in stock; it's too overpowered for class E. This one motivater my "asteroid enlargement patch", currently awaiting a suitable target.

 

[Zhetaan]

@SpaceTrashCan:

I'll fill in some of the little gaps in what others have already said:

1.  @Snark's right and you've simply been unlucky with the random number generator.  I don't know the percentage chance for each asteroid class to appear, and a first-pass search doesn't show any research on the subject, so I'll take that to mean that not many people have had a hard time finding asteroids of a desired class.

2. @Sharpy's got the right idea here.  Always try to move asteroids with a tug rather than a pusher.  Pulling the asteroid is a lot more stable than pushing (the large mass on the back tends to stabilise any wobble). What was not told is that the ships in the pictures have a sword-and-dagger theme for more than just looks:  you need to make sure your engines are far enough away from the rock that the exhaust doesn't hit it.  Otherwise, you'll get zero thrust, burn through your fuel, and accomplish nothing.  You can make sure you don't thrust against the asteroid by either making a very long body with a Klaw at one end of it and the engines at the other or by angling your engines away from the ship (and attached rock).  A long body can be harder to turn, but angled engines waste thrust; you'll have to experiment.

@Tyko touches on some good points, too.  Nuclear engines are fuel efficient, but they are also low-thrust.  You'll have to go for some long burns if you use them on the larger asteroids, so if you do, you'll want to use them in clusters.  Physical time warp (what Tyko calls hardware acceleration) will shorten the amount of real time you spend doing astrobatics, but it's Kraken-bait.  Physical time warp has the property of exaggerating minor motions, and can turn a harmless wobble into a catastrophic pogo oscillation.  ISRU is a good way to save on the fuel you have to send with you, but that may be a mixed blessing:  taking Ore out of the asteroid reduces its mass and makes it easier to move around, but obviously at the cost of its total convertible fuel.  This is a great thing if you're trying to do a redirect contract, but it's a terrible thing if you're trying to build a fuel depot.

As far as inspiring bases are concerned, there are a couple of exceptional ideas out there.  Our Thread of the Year winner @Just Jim had a miraculously lucky break with his Emiko Station; the whole story started when a Class E asteroid whipped by Kerbin and, because of a Minmus gravity assist, ended up in orbit.  If you want to use mods, @nightingale's Tourism Plus has an ultimate challenge of building a space casino that incorporates asteroids--you know what?  Just click the link and look at the picture; I can't really do it justice.  @Kuzzter has one that he uses in his ongoing Kerbfleet series called Micarooni Station.  I know I'm pointing out Mission Reports story stuff rather than Spacecraft Exchange stuff, but the mission reports generally have the best pictures and descriptions, and better show these stations in actual use.

3.  As far as being moons, that's up to you.  Micarooni Station had a comic reversal of the famous Star Wars quote (when the characters first saw it, they said, 'That's no space station, that's a MOON!') but it has not since been referred to as a moon.  @Cydonian Monk referred to six moons of Kerbin (plus a demoted moonoid) in his Forgotten Space Program; aside from the Mun and Minmus, they are all captured asteroids.  Honestly, the question is academic:  what's the difference between a rover and a mobile base?  You may have your own definition, but there's no official one.

 

[Scaprod]

8 hours ago, Sharpy said:

I've got enough experience with Class E that I found them boring. Currently installed a patch that brings the asteroids two classes up, former class C is currently class E sized. Still need to capture a new one, but caught a glimpse of what the new Class E looks like... you enter into the 2.3km physics bubble and brake rapidly because it's so close!

- Asteroids are very ore-rich, but can (and WILL) be depleted rather rapidly, unlike planets where ore is more scarce but never runs out. If you want a Class E, you won't get around a craft with a big ISRU (small one has the same ore usage but lousy fuel production!).

- Pusher crafts are wobble-prone. Make a puller tug that can drag the asteroid.

- don't skimp on thrust. Using LV-N is quite a bit of a chore. Rhino is currently my engine of choice, although Vector isn't that bad.

 

Some of my tugs:

This is Claymore, awesome power, great at pulling Class E. It doesn't quite need that many ISRUs. It's mostly stock, only Klaw tweakscaled, and a KIS container for stuff. But I had a pure stock version and it worked fine, just the 1.25-2.5m converter was a weak point that liked to snap. It's better to use only MK3 parts for all structural needs, as they have a huge breaking force. Actually... it's a little too big for Class E. Handles them with very little effort, depletes them a little too fast.

Dirk: meant for smaller asteroids. Never actually got to try it, as I realized the small ISRU is a really bad choice.

Curtana: Initially intended for class C, but drains them way too fast. I believe it would be just right for smaller Class E.

Claymore 2. Almost pure mod craft. Nuclear reactor for power, 3.5m ISRU, Tremor drills from the Mining Expansion. Applying it to a Class E had similar results as applying Curtana to Class C. Simply put, there are no asteroids big enough for it to handle in stock; it's too overpowered for class E. This one motivater my "asteroid enlargement patch", currently awaiting a suitable target.

 

I can scale the asteroids.

[SpaceTrashCan]

Thank you all for the great answers

I found a lot of inspiring ideas that will improve my asteroid a lot. The Physics really made my system unstable during a lot of burns with complicated ships, thats why i didn't even consider it as an option in my asteroid program. I especially like the idea of pulling the asteroid. I didn't quite think of that before, but the physical explenation makes sence. I'll definitly use that for my next 'Roid

So far i have only used super powerful engines since i expected to need a lot of thrust to get Class D or E ones anywhere. A cluster of Nuclear Engines could be a a good idera too. I'll have to value if the extra mass for such a cluster will work with my lifter.

And that Ore Idea is just genius. Makes me feel dumb, that i didn't think of that Launching with emptier Tanks but a Driller instead could step my Asteroid Game up ahead of the time

Thanks again for all those great answers

[Pirateguillermo]

Those are some great screenshots, Sharpy! Makes me wonder, though: I don't see any drillers, just ISRU and a Klaw. Does that mean that if you're attached to the asteroid via a Klaw you don't need to drill to get the ore before you can process it? Or am I just not seeing the drills?

[Tyko]

@Zhetaan made a lot of great points (and corrected my terminology for Physical Time Warp)

Zhetaan said "ISRU is a good way to save on the fuel you have to send with you, but that may be a mixed blessing:  taking Ore out of the asteroid reduces its mass and makes it easier to move around, but obviously at the cost of its total convertible fuel.  This is a great thing if you're trying to do a redirect contract, but it's a terrible thing if you're trying to build a fuel depot."

I think there's more to it than just having to use up some of the asteroid's ore to fuel capture. Even if your goal is to build a fueling depot, it's worth considering "why" you're building the depot. if you're (likely) doing it to reduce the amount of fuel you have to lift into orbit, it's still better to use the asteroid's ore, than to try to capture the asteroid fully intact.

The reason is that you'll have to lift more fuel into orbit to send out a fully fueled tug - which is what you're trying to minimize. Furthermore, that fully fueled tug will use more fuel getting an asteroid encounter than a partially filled tug would. Lastly, as you mine ore from the asteroid it gets lighter, so it takes less effort to push it around.

Mining for tug fuel does result in less ore getting into orbit, but even with those losses, it's still a better long term bet than sending a fully fueled tug.

[Sharpy]

3 hours ago, Pirateguillermo said:

Those are some great screenshots, Sharpy! Makes me wonder, though: I don't see any drillers, just ISRU and a Klaw. Does that mean that if you're attached to the asteroid via a Klaw you don't need to drill to get the ore before you can process it? Or am I just not seeing the drills?

The placement is a tricky thing. Place too low out and it will bump the surface either not letting dock, or even maybe ripping your docked craft off once deployed. Place too high and you'll have "No Surface Impact", no ore.

[OHara]

To push an asteroid, keep the pushing rockets short, or disable gimbal.  In the picture below, the poodle engines on the orange tanks have gimbal disabled, otherwise they would turn the orange tanks alone by flexing the klaw, resulting in gimbal opposite the desired direction relative to the asteroid.   The gimbal on the small pushers works as desired, and is sufficient for steering.

It might have been obvious from the linked photos, but to be explicit: The game allows transfers of fuel, kerbals, electriity, etc., between any parts of an assembly attached by klaws and docking ports; you might say it abstracts away the details of hooking up fuel lines and EVA tethers after the docking or klawing is complete.  This encourages base building with parts separately klawed to the rock.

Going in and out of time-warp, the game's physics simulation still has some discontinuity in objects momenta, sometimes causing klawed parts to crash into the asteroid.  Keeping bulky structures far from the rock, where possible, reduces this problem.

[SpaceTrashCan]

turning Gimbal Off helped me before. It kept the system relativly stable with the asteroid in front. My pushing system was always long and bulky (I used parts from the SpaceY mod that gives you bigger Tanks and engines). I didn't have a problem with the amount fuel or Trust (used max. 10% of the engines power to move the system) but had struggle to keep the system stabble. Having more claws with engines on them installed could really help i guess

What i used before:

I brought 4 extra claws, that would have rcs thrusters and Fuel on them to keep the asteroid more stable.

But it really is very bulky and long