Nertea

[1.7.x] Stockalike Station Parts Redux (May 21st)

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1 minute ago, DiscoveryPlanet said:

how could you get that texture?

I'm assuming using the TexturesUnlimited mod:

 

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Just now, DiscoveryPlanet said:

i have using that mod but it is just work in 

 

You have to set up shaders in order for it to work, check out this thread for some great examples:

 

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1 minute ago, Pleb said:

You have to set up shaders in order for it to work, check out this thread for some great examples:

so you just download content from that site and booom
the texture change?

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Well if you read through you need to put the shaders in the Gamedata folder. There are shaders for stock parts and a few mods at present, but I believe someone was working on one for this mod.

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@BigJammy @Nils277 Well I can make the matter trivial by keeping both greenhouse modules/modes and adding KPBS detection into SSPXr. I don't want to :rolleyes: but there's that. I've never yet installed KPBS tbh so I'm currently clueless how things work. Before I do (like, Saturday afteroon) I have a few quick questions:

  • Do I need to scale the input/output ratios in the KPBS module when I give it to SSPXr (as SSPXr has at least two sizes of greenhouse and different crew capacity in nearly all three of them)?
  • How many kerbals (non-integer even) do the KPBS greenhouse and algae farm support? I'd like this reference for scaling throughput in the absence of KPBS and its custom partmodules.
  • I like the idea of the Algae Farm. SSPXr's Aquaculture module isn't meant to work like other greenhouses (I'm pretty sure some of its fish population serves a purpose other than the views and potential science) so this is an opportunity to have it do something related to its theme. :wink: 

@Pleb those are good ideas. I've already added to the Supplies tank type roughly exactly like your example, thought I provided for 5% Mulch. If you insist (I don't mind, I'm sure you know better as you actually play the game, lol) I'll use 10%.

I don't think adding the efficiency matter to greenhouses for MKS would be an unfair advantage. It makes it so that greenhouses perform poorly if something or someone is missing. It adds a nerf or a challenge in order to get the typical output....... I like the idea of BotanySkill over Machinery (though i know very well of automated greenhouses).

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40 minutes ago, JadeOfMaar said:

@Pleb those are good ideas. I've already added to the Supplies tank type roughly exactly like your example, thought I provided for 5% Mulch. If you insist (I don't mind, I'm sure you know better as you actually play the game, lol) I'll use 10%.

I don't think adding the efficiency matter to greenhouses for MKS would be an unfair advantage. It makes it so that greenhouses perform poorly if something or someone is missing. It adds a nerf or a challenge in order to get the typical output....... I like the idea of BotanySkill over Machinery (though i know very well of automated greenhouses).

5% should be fine, the Mulch is going to go straight into the greenhouse to be converted (along with Fertilizer) back into Supplies anyway but I just wanted somewhere to keep it other than the greenhouse. Especially seeing I usually ship in other modules such as the greenhouse after the core module, which tends to just be a cupola, a habitation module, a science module, supplies, a generator/battery and solar panels/fuel for generator. You can always ship Mulch in with the life support module (greenhouse), but the idea of shipping in poo to my station is fairly comical! At any rate I need somewhere to keep it initially and I'd like Gael Orbital (or Atlantis Station, haven't decided on a name yet) to have matching parts!

Feel free to use the BotanySkill idea, as I said it was just an idea I had about further integrating the MKS and USI-LS mods into this as patches. As I said, I like the idea of my stations becoming mini Orbital Colonies, but still obviously needing some things shipped in (in this case Fertilizer). 

Edited by Pleb

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7 minutes ago, Pleb said:

Feel free to use the BotanySkill idea, as I said it was just an idea I had about further integrating the MKS and USI-LS mods into this as patches. As I said, I like the idea of my stations becoming mini Orbital Colonies, but still obviously needing some things shipped in (in this case Fertilizer). 

For reference, MKS greenhouses do use BotanySkill (and Machinery).  Note that under MKS skills and wear are separate mechanics, that both can impact the productivity of a part.  (Though RoverDude is still tweaking wear, which is Machinery, so you may want to hold off on that for the moment.)

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33 minutes ago, JadeOfMaar said:

@BigJammy @Nils277 Well I can make the matter trivial by keeping both greenhouse modules/modes and adding KPBS detection into SSPXr. I don't want to :rolleyes: but there's that. I've never yet installed KPBS tbh so I'm currently clueless how things work. Before I do (like, Saturday afteroon) I have a few quick questions:

  • Do I need to scale the input/output ratios in the KPBS module when I give it to SSPXr (as SSPXr has at least two sizes of greenhouse and different crew capacity in nearly all three of them)?
  • How many kerbals (non-integer even) do the KPBS greenhouse and algae farm support? I'd like this reference for scaling throughput in the absence of KPBS and its custom partmodules.
  • I like the idea of the Algae Farm. SSPXr's Aquaculture module isn't meant to work like other greenhouses (I'm pretty sure some of its fish population serves a purpose other than the views and potential science) so this is an opportunity to have it do something related to its theme. :wink:@Pleb

KPBS Greenhouse weights 3 tons and produces enough food for 6 kerbals, while the Algae Farm weights 0.5 t and two of them are needed to have enough Fertilizer to run a Greenhouse at full load. The greenhouse it's not very massive, but it needs to be deployed (which increases its size) and crewed by 2 kerbals to be used.

SSPXr has 2 greenhouses, one in the 2,5m size that weights 4.25 t and the other 3.5 m weights 6.375 t. Since they weight more I think it would be fair for them to produce more food and sustain more kerbals, something like 8 kerbals for the first one and 12 for the second. The Aquaculture is pretty massive, so I suppose it could produce enough fertilizer to feed the big greenhouse.

For reference, these are the ratios from the KPBS Greenhouse and Algae Farm cfg:

PlanetaryGreenhouse

INPUT_RESOURCES
ResourceName = CarbonDioxide	Ratio =  0.001480128
ResourceName = Water		Ratio =  0.000011188078
ResourceName = Fertilizer	Ratio = 0.0000166
ResourceName = ElectricCharge	Ratio = 0.58

OUTPUT_RESOURCES
ResourceName = Food		Ratio =  0.0001015625
ResourceName = Oxygen		Ratio =  0.0017135376

--------------------------------------------------------------

Algae Farm

INPUT_RESOURCES
ResourceName = Waste		Ratio = 0.0000045
ResourceName = Ore		Ratio =  0.0001
ResourceName = ElectricCharge	Ratio = 0.5

OUTPUT_RESOURCES
ResourceName = Fertilizer	Ratio =  0.000008301

 

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@Nertea I love you! Is it wrong? I don't care! Now all we need if you to do a stock revamp :P

Thank you so much for continuing to maintain and update your mods, I absolutely cannot do without them.

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5 minutes ago, SmashBrown said:

@Nertea I love you! Is it wrong? I don't care! Now all we need if you to do a stock revamp :P

Thank you so much for continuing to maintain and update your mods, I absolutely cannot do without them.

The thought of Nertea redoing all of the stock IVAs made me chuckle. Nah gonna happen. 

Edited by Tarheel1999

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17 hours ago, JadeOfMaar said:

@BigJammy A quick glance back at the configs for the large USI Supplies tanks shows/confirms for me that they keep a portion of their volume for Mulch... < 5% to be exact. I've found a wiser option and that is to add this to the existing Supplies tank mode as Mulch is not a resource you want to keep a huge tank full of, and it would be a huge undertaking for Nertea to add a decal to his tanks.

On the other hand, Mulch is basically useless unless you're using greenhouses, and greenhouse parts generally have Mulch storage capacity of their own, so I don't see much benefit in having more Mulch capacity (even a small amount) in separate tanks.  But when you have a vessel without a greenhouse, you probably want to have plenty of Supplies capacity, so carving off a portion of the tank's volume for Mulch may be counterproductive.

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3 hours ago, Der_Geraet_named_Jeb said:

Is there a possibility to use this lovely Mod in KSP v1.2.2?

Fully functional? Nope. Most things will still work as it's firstly a parts mod, not a gameplay mod....but expect the inflatables and centrifuges to break. Let us know if everything works flawlessly... But if there are any issues, no support will come.

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4 minutes ago, Wyzard said:

On the other hand, Mulch is basically useless unless you're using greenhouses, and greenhouse parts generally have Mulch storage capacity of their own, so I don't see much benefit in having more Mulch capacity (even a small amount) in separate tanks.  But when you have a vessel without a greenhouse, you probably want to have plenty of Supplies capacity, so carving off a portion of the tank's volume for Mulch may be counterproductive.

Counterpoints: It can be useful to carry/ship mulch from place to place on occasion.  As an example in my current save is that I have a crew transport ship that moves Kerbals between stations in Kerbin SOI.  (Including Mun, Minmus, etc.)  It has mulch storage to offload mulch at the stations - which have greenhouses.  It can then load up supplies for the next trip, and I only have to occasionally ship up fertilizer, instead of having to ship supplies much more often.  Losing mulch is losing a vital component of the LS supply chain.

Also, greenhouses often have a small portion of storage, but you need 6 hours worth - for all your Kerbals on your station - to prevent losses due to KSP's catch-up mechanic.  That's even if you have enough processing to recycle all your mulch immediately.

Personally, I'd probably  add one container: a 'Life Support Resources' container, which is Supplies/Mulch/Fertilizer.  But I can see options for various other ways of doing things.  Regardless, Mulch is an important (and valuable, though not in direct credits) resource under USI-LS, and you need to be able to do something with it.

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12 minutes ago, Wyzard said:

On the other hand, Mulch is basically useless unless you're using greenhouses, and greenhouse parts generally have Mulch storage capacity of their own, so I don't see much benefit in having more Mulch capacity (even a small amount) in separate tanks.  But when you have a vessel without a greenhouse, you probably want to have plenty of Supplies capacity, so carving off a portion of the tank's volume for Mulch may be counterproductive.

Some of us are sensitive about (even in pretend) dumping it all out the airlock and meeting it again in the next few orbits. :sticktongue: Or possibly running through it with the next launched vehicle.

In seriousness I think < 5% is still pretty good given both your concern and Pleb's, who mentioned that they would like to have Mulch capacity while a greenhouse is not (yet) present.

Excellent answer @DStaal. When I was still new to KSP and used USI LS and MKS-Lite, I actually had the personal issue of not enough Mulch storage on a station and I think there were cases where I explicitly wanted more Mulch storage for a new ship or station build so the greenhouses had a headstart in regenerating Supplies before its first (or next) crew arrived.

could add a Supplies+Mulch+Fertilizer tank type too but I want very much to avoid adding potentially niche tank types and using a given decal more than once. I don't mean to derail the thread but my mod Airline Kuisine provides Mk2 and Mk3 tanks with the option to hold all 3 at once.

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Loving all this discussion of mulch and fertilizer, as I'm a huge fan of both SSPX and SSPXr, nearly always have USI-LS installed, and frequently have MKS installed as well.

One thing I would note is that SSTU is a great addition to the mix of mods listed above. You can make a single tank on your station which includes space for supplies, mulch, and fertilizer in whatever ratio and size you desire. I'll even add the USI-LS resources to a tank that already has LFO, MP, and EC.

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2 hours ago, Tarheel1999 said:

The thought of Nertea redoing all of the stock IVAs made me chuckle. Nah gonna happen. 

Naaah we have alcor's replacements for the stock iva's, just need nertea's lovely textures on the outside :D

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How are the values for TAC-LS calculated? I'm using default settings, but this mod gives me very little in supplies compared to TAC-LS parts. Is there a way to balance the values?

6o2f8uT.png
Edited by majNUN

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OMG this is the most beautiful mod ever!!! Thank you for bringing back the centrifuge and congratulations on a beautiful release

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12 hours ago, majNUN said:

How are the values for TAC-LS calculated? I'm using default settings, but this mod gives me very little in supplies compared to TAC-LS parts. Is there a way to balance the values?

6o2f8uT.png

I haven't played with TAC-LS before (though I may on my next playthrough to increase the challenge/difficulty) but you're right, the original container looks half the size of the container in this mod but holds loads more! Looking at the code in this mod this is how the contents are calcuated:

/// TAC-LS
// ============
B9_TANK_TYPE:NEEDS[CommunityResourcePack]
{
	name = SSPXTAC
	tankMass = 0.0000
	tankCost = 0.0
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = Food
		unitsPerVolume = 1.6927083333E-02
	}
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = Water
		unitsPerVolume = 1.1188078704E-03
	}
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = Oxygen
		unitsPerVolume = 1.713537562385
	}
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = Waste
		unitsPerVolume = 1.4247685185E-02
		percentFilled = 0
	}
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = WasteWater
		unitsPerVolume = 1.539351852E-03
		percentFilled = 0
	}
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = CarbonDioxide
		unitsPerVolume =  1.48012889876
		percentFilled = 0
	}
}

And in TAC-LS the 2.5m container looks like this:

	// --- resource parameters ---
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = Food
		amount = 1038.3
		maxAmount = 1038.3
	}
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = Water
		amount = 686.3
		maxAmount = 686.3
	}
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = Oxygen
		amount = 105113.2
		maxAmount = 105113.2
	}

So I think the values in this mod need changing, though the code in this mod is how many units of each resource is to 1 unit of volume (as this is just a patch to change the contents), so you'd need to calculate it based on that.

Edit: I've always thought of this as a percentage so it may be easier to work with that? As I don't have TAC-LS installed I cannot check this but play around with the SSPXR-B9TankTypes.cfg file in the GameData/StationPartsExpansionRedux/Patches/ directory.

Edited by Pleb

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I seem to be having a weird problem where the IVAs for the centrifuges aren't located in the right place, as shown in this screenshot:WppR8hy.png

Has anyone else had this issue? (It might be caused by one of my millions of mods)

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1 hour ago, Elowiny said:

I seem to be having a weird problem where the IVAs for the centrifuges aren't located in the right place

Yes. I logged an issue on GitHub a couple of days back - the issue seems to be related to rotating the centrifuge in the VAB/SPH. As a stopgap measure, if the part left in its default placement, the issue does not occur.

 

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4 hours ago, Pleb said:

I haven't played with TAC-LS before (though I may on my next playthrough to increase the challenge/difficulty) but you're right, the original container looks half the size of the container in this mod but holds loads more! Looking at the code in this mod this is how the contents are calcuated:


/// TAC-LS
// ============
B9_TANK_TYPE:NEEDS[CommunityResourcePack]
{
	name = SSPXTAC
	tankMass = 0.0000
	tankCost = 0.0
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = Food
		unitsPerVolume = 1.6927083333E-02
	}
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = Water
		unitsPerVolume = 1.1188078704E-03
	}
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = Oxygen
		unitsPerVolume = 1.713537562385
	}
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = Waste
		unitsPerVolume = 1.4247685185E-02
		percentFilled = 0
	}
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = WasteWater
		unitsPerVolume = 1.539351852E-03
		percentFilled = 0
	}
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = CarbonDioxide
		unitsPerVolume =  1.48012889876
		percentFilled = 0
	}
}

And in TAC-LS the 2.5m container looks like this:


	// --- resource parameters ---
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = Food
		amount = 1038.3
		maxAmount = 1038.3
	}
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = Water
		amount = 686.3
		maxAmount = 686.3
	}
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = Oxygen
		amount = 105113.2
		maxAmount = 105113.2
	}

So I think the values in this mod need changing, though the code in this mod is how many units of each resource is to 1 unit of volume (as this is just a patch to change the contents), so you'd need to calculate it based on that.

Edit: I've always thought of this as a percentage so it may be easier to work with that? As I don't have TAC-LS installed I cannot check this but play around with the SSPXR-B9TankTypes.cfg file in the GameData/StationPartsExpansionRedux/Patches/ directory.

@Pleb Thanks for pointing me in the right direction! I found the particular container's cfg says it has a volume of 3750, so I made some ratios based on the TAC-LS numbers and came up with some new values. Given the station part is almost twice as big, I also accounted for that. Most importantly, all the resources finish at the same time, and all the other  station part containers seem automagically  to be in correct proportion to TAC-LS values I've calculated. :D

Of course it's all a matter of some subjectivity...

OIEz3r8.png

Here are my numbers:

/// TAC-LS
// ============
B9_TANK_TYPE:NEEDS[CommunityResourcePack]
{
	name = SSPXTAC
	tankMass = 0.0000
	tankCost = 0.0
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = Food
		unitsPerVolume = 0.512228
	}
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = Water
		unitsPerVolume = 0.3385746666666667
	}
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = Oxygen
		unitsPerVolume = 51.85584533333333
	}
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = Waste
		unitsPerVolume = 0.0442026666666667
		percentFilled = 0
	}
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = WasteWater
		unitsPerVolume = 0.4091706666666667
		percentFilled = 0
	}
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = CarbonDioxide
		unitsPerVolume =  42.50917666666667
		percentFilled = 0
	}

Although I have to admit, I don't understand where TAC-LS get their numbers. There seems to be large discrepancies between the volume of resources compared to their waste products. TAC-LS containers seem to hold twice as much waste as resources. But that will be a problem to be solved for another day.

Edited by majNUN

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These parts look fantastic, and I love the details in the IVAs.  Any chance the various new logistics and cargo containers can get a post-launch, crew switchable cargo type, similar to the EVA "repaint" function on MKS Kontainers?  It'd be nice to be able to take empty log modules that were originally full of material kits to inflate habs and turn them into supply or other cargo storage.

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