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Kerbal Space Program 2: Master Post


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1 hour ago, Kerbart said:

I agree that the trailer looks really good; suspiciously good. But, implementation, while not unimportant is usually not the weakest link in game development (there are exceptions, *cough Flying Tigers cough*), and the trailer does seem to show an understanding of what it is that we want—the hard part.

Granted, this can be worrisome, but I suspect (ok, “hope” is a better word) that it doesn’t involve FTL travel but rather the ability to travel/activate custom solar systems, which might or might not be modded. A built-in Kopernicus with choice of what system you want, basically.

I’m not a big fan of multi-player, but if there’s one requested feature... I think it’s a key component of a commercial success for the game, and a major Reason To Buy. We all benefit from more copies of the game being sold, as it generates more cash for ongoing development.

Part of the territory. If anything, it’s more part of the game trailer culture than anything else. Again, if it helps to sell the game, I don’t care, when it doesn’t influence the game content.

Time will tell, the biggest risk I see is hype and ridiculous expectations from the existing player base. The fact that TakeTwo is willing to roll the dice on the game and develop a sequel major update from scratch is very, very encouraging.

Sadly it appears that we’re getting actual interstellar flight.

I can’t disagree with you about multiplayer but it’s not a selling point for me personally.

And yeah, trailer culture doesn’t reflect actual gameplay - no arguments there either. On the other hand - and again this is a purely personal opinion, it would be nice if the Kerbals played a bigger part in the game than they currently do and continuing the tired old trailer culture memes doesn’t give me a lot of hope that they will.

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Life support can be on a different game mode. Survival mode or something. E.g. if you want to timewarp through interstellar travel time, make sure all of your active colonies produce enough food to keep them running. Otherwise they’ll starve.

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48 minutes ago, KSK said:

That's still a 1 year journey.

Well, that sounds... completely fine? Considering how long we spend on Hohmann transfers and waiting for transfer windows already.

Maybe there'll be higher levels of time warp for interstellar travel. A year divided by a hundred thousand is 5 minutes.

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9 hours ago, tater said:

I see no such option in 1.71.

Curious, I thought there was one. Or is it only when you launch a new game (can't revert the option afterwards in that same save)?

 

If not, it might be a mod then, but I don't rememeber which one. Might Envrionment Visual Enhancements or Surface Visual Enhancement or Stock Visual Terrain.

43 minutes ago, KSK said:

Sadly it appears that we’re getting actual interstellar flight.

I can’t disagree with you about multiplayer but it’s not a selling point for me personally.

And yeah, trailer culture doesn’t reflect actual gameplay - no arguments there either. On the other hand - and again this is a purely personal opinion, it would be nice if the Kerbals played a bigger part in the game than they currently do and continuing the tired old trailer culture memes doesn’t give me a lot of hope that they will.

Well, having laser induced nuclear fusion engines or even nuclear impulse engines is not exactly what I call a FTL drive or Warp drive. And it also can be used for rapid transists to Outer planets.

As for FTL, I'm sure modders will reintroduce it as they did with the first game for those who want FTL capability. The first game worked with it when it was not designed for it so I don't see why it shouldn't work in the new one. As long as they don't introduce Warp Drives or equivalent into stock game, you should be happy.

2 hours ago, MechBFP said:

Probably no micro-transactions is my gut feel as well, but it is certainly not a “definitely no” at this point.

Micro transactions could come as mini DLC just like in Cities Skylines with music and a few, mostly for beautification, assets

Edited by Quoniam Kerman
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10 minutes ago, Quoniam Kerman said:

Micro transactions could come as mini DLC just like in Cities Skylines with music and a few, mostly for beautification, assets

I believe that is exactly what it will be if it does have any. While I personally think these types of items are completely stupid, and I never buy them, I really couldn’t care less if someone else wants to. I simply don’t care about aesthetics. 

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15 minutes ago, Quoniam Kerman said:

Curious, I thought there was one. Or is it only when you launch a new game (can't revert the option afterwards in that same save)?

 

If not, it might be a mod then, but I don't rememeber which one. Might Envrionment Visual Enhancements or Surface Visual Enhancement or Stock Visual Terrain.

Well, having laser induced nuclear fusion engines or even nuclear impulse engines is not exactly what I call a FTL drive or Warp drive. And it also can be used for rapid transists to Outer planets.

As for FTL, I'm sure modders will reintroduce it as they did with the first game for those who want FTL capability. The first game worked with it when it was not designed for it so I don't see why it shouldn't work in the new one. As long as they don't introduce Warp Drives or equivalent into stock game, you should be happy.

Please read my earlier post as to why I think interstellar flight is a bad idea. And I really don’t care what modders may or may not add to the game over time.

39 minutes ago, HebaruSan said:

Well, that sounds... completely fine? Considering how long we spend on Hohmann transfers and waiting for transfer windows already.

Maybe there'll be higher levels of time warp for interstellar travel. A year divided by a hundred thousand is 5 minutes.

Depends if you’re okay with warping through months at a time and ignoring everything else in your game for that time. I never was myself but others may reasonably differ. Also that 1 year journey is making a lot of extremely generous assumptions.

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While I came here to say "<expletive> <expletive> they actually <expletive> gone and <expletive> done it, holy <expletive> <expletive>!" I couldn't help but notice these lines in the announcements topic;

 

Quote

For the past eight years, Kerbal Space Program has continuously evolved into something larger than any of us

Quote

We are happy to say that as well as being lifelong fans of KSP who deeply understand what makes this game so great

They getting good prices for those eight year old devs?

:D

(PS: I know what was meant, please don't @ me)

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4 hours ago, KSK said:

Lol-kerbals still up front and present. In the trailer I was fine with that Mun lander tipping over as a wee bit of fanservice to KSP1. But then, at the end we see a large, advanced off-Kerbin base.... and yet another 'hilarious' rocket crashing incident. I know this is a long established meme but it's also a threadbare and tattered meme, which looks increasingly stupid the more advanced the Kerbal's are supposed to be getting.

I pretty much wholeheartedly agree with this.  As a wise Bac9 once said:

Overall, I'm convinced the obsession with disasters and perception of Kerbals as worthless engineers only caring about explosions is destructive for the game. KSP deserves much more than being a glorified disaster simulator where rockets falling apart and crews being killed is the prime entertainment and the only expected result. The achievements of players who strive to be successful, who create beautiful, well-engineered, reliable designs, should never be devalued, and the opinion that going to space is impossibly hard deserves to be crushed and disproved over and over again. Kerbals are capable engineers and it's up to the player to utilize their technology well.

For the sake of Kerbal-kind, LolSoKerbal needs to die.

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2 hours ago, KSK said:

To me, this smacks of 'we don't include life support because it makes things too hard'. Which is undeniably a popular view on this forum but personally it's not one I subscribe to.

Ditto. I'll be pretty bummed out if colonization doesn't employ some kind of simplified life support and habitation mechanics, some way of meeting kerbals basic biological needs. It's one of the most important aspects of real-life space travel and adds so much to gameplay, (urgency, time-based mechanics, etc.) Im cool if they make it possible with some planning and ISRU to make things self-sufficient so we can set it and forget it. Just put consequences on a toggle for players who'd rather build sandbox set-dressing rather do some resource management.

Edited by Pthigrivi
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2 hours ago, Kerbart said:

Part of the territory. If anything, it’s more part of the game trailer culture than anything else. Again, if it helps to sell the game, I don’t care, when it doesn’t influence the game content.

Is it really though?  Surely there's a way to advertise such an amazing and unique game without resorting to lol splosions.

That shot of the Kerbin rise from Mun is inspiring in the trailer.  So many shots of the trailer are awe inspiring and very much do not involve explosions.  Personally, I have always felt that "lolsokerbal" is an unnecessary crutch used by a fledgling development team unsure of the possible success of their little game.  I'm fairly sure KSP has proven itself to be better than all that at this point.

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58 minutes ago, KSK said:

Depends if you’re okay with warping through months at a time and ignoring everything else in your game for that time. I never was myself but others may reasonably differ.

I found that attitude a recipe for missing out on big parts of KSP1 when I shared it and weaned myself from it.

58 minutes ago, KSK said:

Also that 1 year journey is making a lot of extremely generous assumptions.

No fair setting up a ballparking scenario and then retracting it if it doesn't turn out how you wanted.

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1 hour ago, KSK said:

Depends if you’re okay with warping through months at a time and ignoring everything else in your game for that time. I never was myself but others may reasonably differ. Also that 1 year journey is making a lot of extremely generous assumptions.

I tried to play through several times without doing insane time warps. And going anywhere further than Duna just wasn't happening. It's what? 5, 7 years to Sarnus? Ignoring the wait for the transfer window. And that's the closest of the OPM bodies. It doesn't much matter if they do expanded Kerbol system with low tech engines, or interstellar flight with high tech engines. You are still looking at years to decades of flight time. Hell, I've seen people run missions that go on for centuries, just in stock KSP. Unless you are insanely committed, I don't see anyone going much further than the KSP 1 bodies without leaning heavily into timewarp, regardless of what way KSP 2 is expanded.

I can understands concerns about advanced engines trivializing interplanetary flight, if it wasn't for the fact that they don't look like they will be cheap or easy to field in career or science mode. And if you are playing in sandbox, you should probably already be familiar enough with setting whatever constraints you need to keep things as reasonable/unreasonable as you'd like to have a good time.

49 minutes ago, klgraham1013 said:

Is it really though?  Surely there's a way to advertise such an amazing and unique game without resorting to lol splosions.

That shot of the Kerbin rise from Mun is inspiring in the trailer.  So many shots of the trailer are awe inspiring and very much do not involve explosions.  Personally, I have always felt that "lolsokerbal" is an unnecessary crutch used by a fledgling development team unsure of the possible success of their little game.  I'm fairly sure KSP has proven itself to be better than all that at this point.

I cringed at every explosion and destruction. I also found it humorous and appropriate.

I don't see it as a crutch. I see it as a running joke common to the majority of the community. And it's not about the end goal of KSP being a "disaster simulator" or downplaying the successes and triumphs of the players. 

What it IS, is a humorous admission of a sometimes painful truth: we've all been there. Who here hasn't forgotten to check their staging? Who here hasn't had a lander tip over on some remote body? Who here hasn't misjudged some burn or another, and smashed into the ground, burnt up in the atmosphere, or crashed into their meticulously designed space station? Kebral Space Program isn't a game about mistakes and failures. It's a game about learning from mistakes and failures, and trying not to make them next time. Bad things do still happen, and it always sucks when it does. But we don't get all down about it and give up. We take it in stride, we take it as humor, we say "lol that's so kerbal", and then we go and build something better next time and succeed.

Being able to spin those failures as a community meme helps Kerbal Space Program. It prevents many players from getting discouraged, or feeling inadequate, or thinking that they can't ask others for help with their problems and mistakes. It reinforces that these mistakes aren't shameful, and that we as a community don't take ourselves too seriously.

It's something that would not exist if the community majority hadn't run with it just as much as Squad did, and Star Theory leaning into angle in the trailer tells me that they have been paying attention and are in touch with how most of the community views the game. Which, IMO, is a good sign.

Edited by TBenz
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24 minutes ago, TBenz said:

I cringed at every explosion and destruction. I also found it humorous and appropriate.

I don't see it as a crutch. I see it as a running joke common to the majority of the community. And it's not about the end goal of KSP being a "disaster simulator" or downplaying the successes and triumphs of the players. 

What it IS, is a humorous admission of a sometimes painful truth: we've all been there. Who here hasn't forgotten to check their staging? Who here hasn't had a lander tip over on some remote body? Who here hasn't misjudged some burn or another, and smashed into the ground, burnt up in the atmosphere, or crashed into their meticulously designed space station? Kebral Space Program isn't a game about mistakes and failures. It's a game about learning from mistakes and failures, and trying not to make them next time. Bad things do still happen, and it always sucks when it does. But we don't get all down about it and give up. We take it in stride, we take it as humor, we say "lol that's so kerbal", and then we go and build something better next time and succeed.

Being able to spin those failures as a community meme helps Kerbal Space Program. It prevents many players from getting discouraged, or feeling inadequate, or thinking that they can't ask others for help with their problems and mistakes. It reinforces that these mistakes aren't shameful, and that we as a community don't take ourselves too seriously.

It's something that would not exist if the community majority hadn't run with it just as much as Squad did, and Star Theory leaning into angle in the trailer tells me that they have been paying attention and are in touch with how most of the community views the game. Which, IMO, is a good sign.

Thank you!!!

Yes this is exactly the point. So many people being wary or concerned or cynical about this and I don't get it. I cringed a bit at all the stuff falling apart in the trailer too, because that's not how *I* play the game, but I know that's what happens for most people and it is definitely a big part of the humour of the game, and a big part of what made KSP1 so special.

KSP2 looks like it's going to be fantastic. I really hope we do have interstellar travel between star systems because how else would they do it? Different instances that you load? That sounds awful, and it would completely break the flow. I want to make a giant interstellar ship and then send it off on a 10-year mission to "Alpha Kentauri" or whatever they want to call it. And then while it's on its way I can look after my colonies on Laythe and Duna and do whatever. They;'d have to have some kind of stock version of Kerbal Alarm Clock so you know when to switch to a certain thing and look after it.

Everything they've mentioned so far that they're including sounds awesome. I hope we are still able to start completely from scratch and go from our first ever space flight to colonising multiple star system. That is the game I want more than anything else.

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1 hour ago, TBenz said:

I tried to play through several times without doing insane time warps. And going anywhere further than Duna just wasn't happening. It's what? 5, 7 years to Sarnus? Ignoring the wait for the transfer window. And that's the closest of the OPM bodies. It doesn't much matter if they do expanded Kerbol system with low tech engines, or interstellar flight with high tech engines. You are still looking at years to decades of flight time. Hell, I've seen people run missions that go on for centuries, just in stock KSP. Unless you are insanely committed, I don't see anyone going much further than the KSP 1 bodies without leaning heavily into timewarp, regardless of what way KSP 2 is expanded.

I can understands concerns about advanced engines trivializing interplanetary flight, if it wasn't for the fact that they don't look like they will be cheap or easy to field in career or science mode. And if you are playing in sandbox, you should probably already be familiar enough with setting whatever constraints you need to keep things as reasonable/unreasonable as you'd like to have a good time.

This is a legit point. In almost all my saves since 2014 or so I've been setting up bases on Duna, Eve, Laythe, Vall, etc. The main issue is the huge disparity in warp-times between interplanetary and local KSOI missions and I can imagine a similar jump when going interstellar. If you're always busy locally it takes a long, long time to do anything significant at Jool. While I still think colony mechanics should rely on something that at least calls attention to real-life LS and ISRU I'm inclined to think demanding frequent resupply is out. Hopefully its something like set up some starting infrastructure, let things grow over a few years, come back, expand, repeat. I also hope maintaining balance is at least a little challenging--resource processing and recycling, greenhouses, habitation, nurseries, etc.

Edited by Pthigrivi
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5 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

This is a legit point. In almost all my saves since 2014 or so I've been setting up bases on Duna, Eve, Laythe, Vall, etc. The main issue is the huge disparity in warp-times between interplanetary and local KSOI missions and I can imagine a similar jump when going interstellar. If you're always busy locally it takes a long, long time to do anything significant at Jool. While I still think colony mechanics should rely on something that at least calls attention to real-life LS and ISRU I'm inclined to think demanding frequent resupply is out. Hopefully its something like set up some starting infrastructure, let things grow over a few years, come back, expand, repeat.

Based on the PC gamer article, it sounds like colonies won't require much, if any, management if you don't want to keep expanding them.

Quote

Despite the talk of population, Simpson is keen to point out that Kerbal Space Program isn't space SimCity. "There is a population of Kerbals locally in any colony that you build, and that population does increase organically. And as that population increases, the colony's abilities increase as well. But not it's not the sort of situation where if you don't tend to the colony, it collapses or something bad happens."

In many respects it feels like an expanded version of how I played the first game—lots of ongoing projects to be advanced or ignored depending on my current whim (and many, many stranded Kerbals waiting patiently to be rescued). "If you want to continue to come back to the colony and add to it you can," Simpson continues. "Or, if you got what you need out of it and you want to move on, you can do that as well. It's not meant to be a punitive or distracting system."

Source

Personally, I think that's for the best, as any KSP game should focus more on exploration and expanding horizons. I don't really want to get bogged down with micromanaging colony logistics and the like. That was always the biggest hurdle I had when playing with any of the colonization mods. 

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My ground-up-rewrite requests:

(1) Procedural parts or pervasive variants or some other way to drastically reduce the number of available parts that do the same thing just in different sizes.

(2) Make Saturn V-like interstages (both the lunar-module-encapsulating one and the angled one on the stage beneath that one) straightforward to make! The new Engine Plate + the mod Decoupler Shroud are a big improvement (I believe Realism Overhaul also has a good way to do this) but it feels like a ground-up redesign of the builder would be a good chance to make this simple. Like maybe make the rocket walls themselves load-bearing instead of a magic green attach node at the center, which is not like real rockets. Obviously would be tricky to do this while also retaining the LEGO-like build-ability of KSP 1.

(3) Make it possible to build standalone LOX and Liquid Fuel tanks or otherwise make it possible to build rockets like the N1 where you can see the exposed tanks behind the crisscrossed "interstages"

(4) Make a lot more "hollow" parts (maybe as an option on the part). Example: the Saturn V lunar module fairing again. The first 1/4 is attached to the previous stage, which you can do in KSP 1 with a structural tube piece, but then you can't put the fairing base on top of that without clipping through your lunar module. Example: those crisscrossed interstages on the N1 -- would be awesome if when you went to place them they automatically attached at the place where the tank starts rounding and not at the tip.

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