BudgetHedgehog

If you run KER in non-partless mode and you have old crafts that include them that you still want to load up, then yes, there's a point in them. A very blunt point, sure, but it's a point nonetheless. However, if you're starting fresh with new crafts or settings, then no, no point (unless you really like that tape drive, I guess).

So I think I'm going crazy, but trying to add any of the non-structural Rework parts to my ship just completely breaks the game. Huge NREs, output_log spam, can't exit editor, game freezes and I have to force-exit.. real bad things, basically. I thought it was maybe some interaction with another mod, but it happened on a pure stock install with just MSI (Legacy and Rework), TweakScale (a dependency) and ModuleManager. Basically, what happens is that when I click to attach a robotic part to the craft, it just kinda wiggles lopsidedly for a few seconds, doesn't actually attach and then I get a FPS tank (like 1-3 FPS, which would be the massive log spam. Seriously, it took about 10 minutes to delete the spam so it'd be a reasonable size). I can't delete the part easily and I can't exit the editor. Here is my output_log.txt from the test, I hope its some use. I'd say it's a TweakScale bug, but it only happens with the Rework parts (oddly, not the Legacy ones). And seeing as TS is a dependency, it's odd that it's breaking the Rework parts. Yes, they're installed correctly, yes, I believe they're the latest (last updated 27/08), KSP 0.24.2... Could it be a conflict with the IR upgrade? 0.19 allows editor movement of parts, that could be borking things... EDIT: The start of Bad Things ArgumentException: An element with the same key already exists in the dictionary. at System.Collections.Generic.Dictionary`2[System.String,TweakScale.ScaleExponents].Add (System.String key, TweakScale.ScaleExponents value) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 at System.Linq.Enumerable.ToDictionary[ScaleExponents,String,ScaleExponents] (IEnumerable`1 source, System.Func`2 keySelector, System.Func`2 elementSelector, IEqualityComparer`1 comparer) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 at System.Linq.Enumerable.ToDictionary[ScaleExponents,String] (IEnumerable`1 source, System.Func`2 keySelector, IEqualityComparer`1 comparer) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 at System.Linq.Enumerable.ToDictionary[ScaleExponents,String] (IEnumerable`1 source, System.Func`2 keySelector) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 at TweakScale.ScaleExponents.CreateExponentsForModule (.ConfigNode node, System.Collections.Generic.Dictionary`2 parent) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 at TweakScale.ScaleConfig..ctor (.ConfigNode config) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 at TweakScale.TweakScale.Setup () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 at TweakScale.TweakScale.OnStart (StartState state) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 at Part.ModulesOnStart () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 at Part+.MoveNext () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 EDIT: Soooo... I'm an idiot. The TweakScale exponents mention in the Exception made me go looking and it appears I have a rogue cfg changing things from a certain Mr Tao.. Deleting that fixed the craziness. Sorry for wasting someones time! But I'll leave this up in case any else has the same problem

Hello, I'd just like to point out that I was able to reproduce the bug following these instructions. TS 1.43 and MM 2.4.4.

I could be wrong but I think it's because spawning a complex craft with docking ports (or even just vessels that aren't single parts, like asteroids or kerbals) is pretty non-trivial. Add in the question of 'why would that be a thing?' and I think that's the answer.

Like I said, But yeah, I'd just like for the option to have the old parts as optional, not buried in amongst the new parts. Sorry if you got the impression I was being overly hostile or whatever, honestly didn't mean for it to read like that

This is true, however, I still think that having one folder called Legacy or Deprecated or whatever would be a lot easier than having to go into all the necessary folders and delete every single one individually. Seriously though, why would anyone be against this? Not saying you are specifically, RIC, but like... there's literally zero downside (if a Legacy folder is included alongside Gamedata or Squad or whatever) - people would still be able to load old crafts and swap things out as needed then/or delete unwanted assets. Why say 'ehh, actually, I prefer to sift through the folders and delete deprecated parts' when the other option is for the devs to make a new folder?

Not really. The current naming scheme is extremely unintuitive - without looking at the config, tell me what "liquidEngine2-2" is. If it took you more than 2 seconds, it's too long. The idea is to have an easy way to remove parts that you don't need. If someone doesn't need the old LV-909 any more, they should just be able to either not download the file or delete it without having to search through a bunch of configs to find out which one is the LV-909.

There we go, I can actually see the list now. Most awkward way of listing your mods I've ever seen. Anyway, I've had the bug and my mods in common with you are ATM, B9, EVE, DOE, EE, RPM, KER, KWR, HotRockets, EnhancedNavball, RCS Build Aid, SmokeScreen, SP+ and Tweakscale (also I have FAR, not NEAR). Could be Smokescreen? Maybe post that log in the SS thread (after updating those mods and trying again). I only ask because someone had the same problem with an exception from SS. Your problem is currently plaguing my Ike probes - they're there, but I can't switch to them as, like you, all that's left is an engine. Like you, I haven't pinned down reproduction steps..

Roger, captain. Enjoy your holiday!

Gib now pls

God amongst men, thank you. I suspect it'll just be easier to scan for those PartModules you listed - better safe than sorry, after all! Maybe just include a warning that the craft may not perform or load correctly without TE.. same with KerbPaint - '.crafts you download may be different to those pictured' My Shuttle and I thank you tremendously.

Thank you! Also, is there any way to differentiate between a part simply having say, ModuleTweakableGimbal, and actually using it? Say I have TE installed (and I always do) but I don't change any engine gimbal with it. It's there, but just not needed for the craft to load and fly correctly. Is it a case of 'this part has a tweaked gimbal of default, everything is normal' or 'this part has default gimbal, everything is normal'? Make any sense? Mainly for my own sheer curiosity, this is...

Quick question: what PartModules does TE add to parts? katateochi, the author of KerbalX, would liek to know. KerbalX works by scanning the craft file and listing out all the parts used. This is handy if a mod part is used as it uses a community-sourced knowledge base of mod parts. For actual parts, like KWR, it's easy and the part itself is a mod thing. However, when things like FAR and TweakScale are used, they add no new parts, but are still required to load and fly the craft. So, the crafts have to be scanned for parts that contain PartModules relating to 'partless part mods', like FarControllableSurface, which is applied to stock control surfaces. You can see where this is going - TE adds things like ModuleTweakableReactionWheel to stock parts, right? What katateochi would like to know is 'what modules are added?'. Is it as simple as the things included in the cfgs in the download (like ModuleTweakableJettison and ModuleTweakableRCS etc)?

From memory, something like: B9 is dedicated towards spaceplanes and fairly balanced/realistic parts. Kerbins stock souposphere is neither. Also, from the OP FAQ - "balancing anything against awful stock "aerodynamics" amounts to torture with some designs".

Agreed. Either an optional download or a separate folder in Gamedata or something.. Either way, the deprecated parts should be hidden in the editors so for people who carry over craft files can easily update their stuff and then delete the legacy parts entirely. I always start fresh on any new update anyway - entirely clean slate, not even my savefiles are transferred over, let alone crafts. An easy way to remove irrelevant stuff would be highly appreciated.

Also worth mentioning: NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object at ModelMultiParticlePersistFX.OnSave (.ConfigNode node) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 at EffectList.OnSave (.ConfigNode node) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 at Part.SaveEffects (.ConfigNode node) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 at ProtoPartSnapshot.Load (.Vessel vesselRef, Boolean loadAsRootPart) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 at ProtoVessel.LoadObjects () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 at Vessel.Load () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 at Vessel.MakeActive () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 at FlightGlobals.setActiveVessel (.Vessel v, Boolean force) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 at FlightGlobals.SetActiveVessel (.Vessel v) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 at FlightDriver.Start () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 This is the bug that destroys entire ships bar the engine upon reload. Pls fix

Check what exceptions those are in the output_log.txt - that has more info.

Strange. Does this link work?

Cut throttle, turn off SAS and RCS, cancel trim and don't move the craft.

1, No. 2, Not that I'm aware of (you could use Goodspeed Fuel Pump or TACFB though). 3, Have you assigned a unique ID to each cam? The way RPM works is by using the closest camera with the selected ID. If you have a same ID camera further away, it won't be shown (before you ask, camera assignment can't be done from IVA (unless VesselViewer can, but I don't know)).

From the OP: Don't know if you missed it or just didn't look, but that has versions all the way back to 0.9.3.

But you'd see similar behaviour if the kerbal wasn't a kerbal, but a command pod or something - set up a tractor design hovering craft that stays at say, 100m. Decouple a pod from the bottom and float it down on chutes. Once it's landed, you'll be able to TW on rails and the ship above you will disappear. I'm not sure it'd be possible to fix this or even that there are many occasions where it would be catastrophic - you'd rarely be operating more than one vessel in atmo AND one of them is flying AND the active vessel is landed AND you really honestly need to timewarp. If you find yourself in such a situation, surely you could just either wait or use phys timewarp? Yeah, it's a bug, and one SQUAD probably hasn't thought of, but that's because the situation presents itself so rarely and the workaround is so simple (just wait..).

You're using 64bit - I beg to differ.

The first one has [KSP Interstellar] Exception caught adding to: FNSmallerAugmentedArcjet part: System.InvalidOperationException: Operation is not valid due to the current state of the object at System.Linq.Enumerable.First[ModuleInfo] (IEnumerable`1 source) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 at FNPlugin.PluginHelper.Update () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 .. ArgumentException: An element with the same key already exists in the dictionary. at System.Collections.Generic.Dictionary`2[System.String,ScienceExperiment].Add (System.String key, .ScienceExperiment value) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 at ResearchAndDevelopment.loadExperiments () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 at ResearchAndDevelopment.GetExperiment (System.String experimentID) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 at DMagic.DMConfigLoader.configLoad () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 at DMagic.DMConfigLoader.Start () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 And points to FinePrint in the stack trace at the bottom. The second again has that DMagic error and again, points to the contract system in the stack trace. I could find no errors regarding IR or TweakScale in either - both appeared to load correctly. When you say you've already been to mod devs, who do you mean? I'm hoping it's Arsonide, DMagic and either FractalUK or WaveFunctionP, depending on which version you have installed - I can't seem to find KSPI on the list of installed mods for some reason. Just saying.

Airbus's and 747's don't go to space. You might like the cockpits of Coffee, Lacks SXT and KAX.