[1.12.x] USI Life Support

[Benno]

It's assumed the pioneer module is attached to an MKS base unit, or in the case of OKS, tied to a storage unit.

Ah ok, I had the impression that it was kind of a standalone module, but fair enough.

While I was trying to figure this out though, I did notice (as did someone else I think) that the description says 25% efficiency, but the pioneer is actually running at 50% efficiency.

[jfjohnny5]

If this hasn't been suggested already, would it be possible to either manually select which vessels come up in the list when you click the Life Support button in the toolbar? Or, more specifically, I'd prefer if the derelicts leftover from Kerbal rescue missions that I rename as "Debris" don't show up. So maybe, debris doesn't show up in the Life Support list?

[RoverDude]

Logging a github issue is the best way to get these things addressed

[futrtrubl]

Ah ok, I had the impression that it was kind of a standalone module, but fair enough.

While I was trying to figure this out though, I did notice (as did someone else I think) that the description says 25% efficiency, but the pioneer is actually running at 50% efficiency.

Different efficiencies. The 25% is how much supplies you get back from a certain quantity of mulch. The 50% is how fast the module is working at doing that conversion, this depends on so many things you will need to look at the FAQ.

[Hevak]

Different efficiencies. The 25% is how much supplies you get back from a certain quantity of mulch. The 50% is how fast the module is working at doing that conversion, this depends on so many things you will need to look at the FAQ.

Well when I redid the flow charts for life support I was going through part configs. And for USI resources, it shows .0002 mulch going in, and .0001 supplies coming out for the pioneer config. So isn't that a 50% return and loss?

i just want to be sure which way it is. Because I currently have the finished flow chart stating a 50% return on that loop and I want my chart to be correct and not confuse people lol

i show the aeroponics at 90% return because it's .00005 mulch in, and .000045 organics out. The organics to supplies is a 1:1 in/out in the kerbitat. I'll freely admit maths is not a strong suit of mine lol.. So am I looking at this wrong? Or missing something? I just don't want my chart to have incorrect info.

[Benno]

Well when I redid the flow charts for life support I was going through part configs. And for USI resources, it shows .0002 mulch going in, and .0001 supplies coming out for the pioneer config. So isn't that a 50% return and loss?

i just want to be sure which way it is. Because I currently have the finished flow chart stating a 50% return on that loop and I want my chart to be correct and not confuse people lol

i show the aeroponics at 90% return because it's .00005 mulch in, and .000045 organics out. The organics to supplies is a 1:1 in/out in the kerbitat. I'll freely admit maths is not a strong suit of mine lol.. So am I looking at this wrong? Or missing something? I just don't want my chart to have incorrect info.

Yes, the config file aside, I got the same results you are indicating when testing it empirically. The pioneer outputs in supplies almost exactly half of what it consumes in mulch, which is the same efficiency as the nomomatic. However, the pioneer does it 4x faster than the nomomatic. So, the description is at odds with the functionality, but which one is right? I suspect that Roverdude's intention (correct me if I'm wrong Roverdude) was that the pioneer should actually run at 25% efficiency, not 50%. The reason I suspect as such is because of the electricity consumption. The pioneer processes 4x faster than the nomomatic with the same level of efficiency, so it should probably use around say 4x the electricity of the nomomatic? However, it actually uses only twice the electricity. If the efficiency was only 25%, then the electricity usage would kind of make sense. Of course, perhaps the pioneer is fandangled technology compared to the nomomatic, but I suspect it needs to be a nerfed a little bit.

I've never raised an issue on Github, but will give it a shot now. [edit: Githubbed!]

Edited May 21, 2015 by Benno
Githubbed

[Hevak]

Well I going with 50% and typo in part description. Because the OP by Roverdude on page 1 says it runs at 50% lol.

But then it says the kerbitat is 75%. I'm not sure if that's a typo, because the aeroponics does recycling. But I'm showing that as 90% from the cfg. .00005 mulch in > .000045 organics out. And then kerbitat does organics to supplies at 1:1

It also says the MK IV's that are coming will be the 90% recycling off world, and 100% on planet. Maybe this is going to change efficiency of the aeroponics at least when they are released? Or maybe Roverdude changed his mind while making the parts but didn't change the part description on the pioneer module.?

so for now I'm going with pioneer at 50% and aeroponics at 90%. @roverdude, any chance at some clarification or inputs on this? I'd hate to be telling everyone the wrong thing with my chart or when I offer help on here. Lol.

Also is the consumption to waste a 1:1 of supplies >mulch? Or is there some loss during consumption?

[futrtrubl]

Ahhh, I thought you were seeing the 50% efficiency in game and thought you were looking at the module efficiency that depends on workspaces, kerbals etc.

[Hevak]

Ahhh, I thought you were seeing the 50% efficiency in game and thought you were looking at the module efficiency that depends on workspaces, kerbals etc.

Lol yeah efficiency is getting a bit overused isn't it? Hard to know what efficiency Is being discussed sometimes..

Im im just interested in knowing what the returns are for the different recycling options so I have the right info to give out. So if some one looks at my flow chart for mks they are getting the right info. And maybe this would be better put into the mks thread since these are really mks parts? Think I'll put a quick one in there too, just to make sure on all this for the documentation I made.

[Benno]

Well I going with 50% and typo in part description. Because the OP by Roverdude on page 1 says it runs at 50% lol.

But then it says the kerbitat is 75%. I'm not sure if that's a typo, because the aeroponics does recycling. But I'm showing that as 90% from the cfg. .00005 mulch in > .000045 organics out. And then kerbitat does organics to supplies at 1:1

It also says the MK IV's that are coming will be the 90% recycling off world, and 100% on planet. Maybe this is going to change efficiency of the aeroponics at least when they are released? Or maybe Roverdude changed his mind while making the parts but didn't change the part description on the pioneer module.?

so for now I'm going with pioneer at 50% and aeroponics at 90%. @roverdude, any chance at some clarification or inputs on this? I'd hate to be telling everyone the wrong thing with my chart or when I offer help on here. Lol.

Also is the consumption to waste a 1:1 of supplies >mulch? Or is there some loss during consumption?

Ah, an alternative hypothesis then:

Perhaps the pioneer is supposed to run at 50% efficiency, but only at 2x speed rather than 4x? That would make the electricity usage work out, and seeing as the pioneer only actually has room for 2 kerbals anyhow, why does it need to be able to process the daily mulch of 4 kerbals?

[Hevak]

Ah, an alternative hypothesis then:

Perhaps the pioneer is supposed to run at 50% efficiency, but only at 2x speed rather than 4x? That would make the electricity usage work out, and seeing as the pioneer only actually has room for 2 kerbals anyhow, why does it need to be able to process the daily mulch of 4 kerbals?

Probably for a station of 4 kerbals, not just those in the module. I think most modules hold only 2 kerbals. Maybe the MK III hold more? Haven't paid much attention. But mks parts are intended for base building and usually made to account for a certain # in the whole base not just the module itself. Idk how to put this but they aren't really intended to be used with this mod unless you're building bases somewhere. (They are but not alone or for ships) I suppose you could slap a pioneer on a craft as a part. But that isn't really the intent so that is the reason for 4 kerbals. A small surface or orbital station.

I think it was intended to be 50% because that is still quite lossy as he says. Lol. I think the aeroponics was meant to be 75% or maybe it's going to be changed to 75% once MK IV modules come out as the MKS mod hasn't gotten them yet.

Edited May 21, 2015 by Hevak

[Superfluous J]

I'm having two oddities that I'm fairly sure are:

1) related to each other

2) my fault.

However, I cannot figure out what the problem is. I almost think this mod is somehow installed twice but can find no proof of that in my gamedata folder.

First, I have 2 of the green cube icons in my toolbar. One of them shows the life support for 2 EVA'd Kerbals I have on Duna. The other shows all other ships' statuses.

Second, the numbers are off in certain circumstances. I sent a 2-person, 2-ship (with docking ports) mission to Mun with no supplies (I expected to be home well within the 15-day window) and when I undocked them, one correctly showed that 5 hours had gone by, the other reset the timer to 0:00. When I docked them back up, they suddenly said that my Kerbals had been out in space without food for over 200 days! Luckily, this didn't affect the actual game (I could still control the ship) but it was a bit scary.

Any clue what I screwed up? I have the output log from the session where that entire Mun trip happened, if it'll help.

Ignore me. I was right, it was my fault. Sometimes you just need to write something down to give you the inspiration to fix it. You changed the name of the DLL between versions and I (like the moron I am) installed the new version over the old. Uninstalling and reinstalling has taken care of the issue.

Edited May 21, 2015 by 5thHorseman

[Nirahiel]

I don't know if i'm doing something wrong, but no matter how i setup my orbital station, using USI Kolonisation System + USI Life support, i consume much faster than i produce, resulting in no more food after 1 day...

[Donziboy2]

Roverdude, you may want to add links to this mod on your catalog page.

[Hevak]

I don't know if i'm doing something wrong, but no matter how i setup my orbital station, using USI Kolonisation System + USI Life support, i consume much faster than i produce, resulting in no more food after 1 day...

Well it's hard to know what exactly is happening with your situation, given the limited info. But I'll try to help some.

first thing is this, an mks/ Oks orbital station will never keep up with consumption. There is currently some confusion among me and a few others of exact returns on the chain but I'll give approximations.

If you have the pioneer module on your oribtal station, this will be recycling somewhere around a 50% return of your mulch (waste) for 4 kerbals, so you are losing at least half of your initial food during this life support recycling loop(or possibly a little more, depending on any loss during kerbals consumption idk if there is any). This module recycles mulch (waste) directly into more supplies.

if you have an aeroponics module on your OKS orbital station it will be recycling your mulch (waste) at near 90% returns also for 4 kerbals I believe. (So 10% is lost or possibly a little more if there is some loss when kerbals consume supplies, idk) But this process recycles your mulch into organics. So you also need to have a kerbitat module on the station to convert these organics back into supplies, this is at a 1:1 conversion.

if you do the 2nd option of an aeroponics for recycling with the kerbitat you need to be sure to turn off your greenhouse converter on the pioneer module, otherwise you will be running both recycling loops and wasting half your mulch in the pioneer module that loses 50% of it through the processing.

Orbital was designed not to keep pace with consumption, you can get close, but not self sufficient. This is due to conservation of mass and other design choices by Roverdude. If you start with enough food though and have sufficient recycling for the # of kerbals in a station then it should last longer than a day with the 2nd option.

your third option for an OKS orbital station is to add a bunch of storage, then fly in a bunch of water and substrate so you can produce more supplies then you are using (depending on # of kerbals of course) but it will not last forever you will need to resupply water and substrate now and then to keep the production process going. This can be done either by flying a craft yourself, or using the logistics module depending on your situation.

hope this helps some, and the return %'s I stated may not be exact, it could be slightly lower. I'm not sure if kerbals consume supplies and produce mulch at a 1:1 ratio or not. If there is loss when kerbals consume then the % will drop.

Edited May 21, 2015 by Hevak

[Hevak]

Also I forgot to mention, that if your base or a ship loses EC for too long, you will lose all supplies on board.

[Andy81le]

Is it possible to add the icon to blizzy's toolbar? My stock toolbar is kind of crowed.

[Jasseji]

RoverDude - please change your name to 'RockDude' because you rock

[RoverDude]

Well I going with 50% and typo in part description. Because the OP by Roverdude on page 1 says it runs at 50% lol.

But then it says the kerbitat is 75%. I'm not sure if that's a typo, because the aeroponics does recycling. But I'm showing that as 90% from the cfg. .00005 mulch in > .000045 organics out. And then kerbitat does organics to supplies at 1:1

It also says the MK IV's that are coming will be the 90% recycling off world, and 100% on planet. Maybe this is going to change efficiency of the aeroponics at least when they are released? Or maybe Roverdude changed his mind while making the parts but didn't change the part description on the pioneer module.?

so for now I'm going with pioneer at 50% and aeroponics at 90%. @roverdude, any chance at some clarification or inputs on this? I'd hate to be telling everyone the wrong thing with my chart or when I offer help on here. Lol.

Also is the consumption to waste a 1:1 of supplies >mulch? Or is there some loss during consumption?

I'm reviewing all of the conversion numbers - both in light on some research I am doing as well as balancing against the MKS Mk II/IV/V modules.

I don't know if i'm doing something wrong, but no matter how i setup my orbital station, using USI Kolonisation System + USI Life support, i consume much faster than i produce, resulting in no more food after 1 day...

Saw some answers here, but best to hop to the MKS thread with details

Roverdude, you may want to add links to this mod on your catalog page.

On my list

Is it possible to add the icon to blizzy's toolbar? My stock toolbar is kind of crowed.

tbh I am not looking at adding blizzy toolbar stuff to any of my mods, sorry

RoverDude - please change your name to 'RockDude' because you rock

lol thanks!

[Vorg]

I just added the community tech tree last night and I now see the little greenhouse bubbles in 2 places. The first one I have unlocked, the second (added by CTT) is not which made the bubble disapear from my list of parts. Didn't have any craft with it yet. But is it showing in 2 places a a bug? Since it is a mod device, shouldn't the CTT file remove it from the old when adding to the new since the new seems to override the unlocked status of the first?

[MarcAFK]

Small issue, Displayed life support time remaining is incorrect if running on earth time, the counter still assumes 6 hour days.

[KerbMav]

I got into thinking (again, I know, beware, hide the children!): A density of 0.001 means 1kg per unit of stuff? Seems a bit light even for a 1m creature?

[RoverDude]

I just added the community tech tree last night and I now see the little greenhouse bubbles in 2 places. The first one I have unlocked, the second (added by CTT) is not which made the bubble disapear from my list of parts. Didn't have any craft with it yet. But is it showing in 2 places a a bug? Since it is a mod device, shouldn't the CTT file remove it from the old when adding to the new since the new seems to override the unlocked status of the first?

Artefact of the persistence file when stuff gets moved around after a save is started - CTT is just a config, not code. You could always tweak your persistence file to resolve this.

Small issue, Displayed life support time remaining is incorrect if running on earth time, the counter still assumes 6 hour days.

Ahh - log a github issue please, I assume Kerbin time

I got into thinking (again, I know, beware, hide the children!): A density of 0.001 means 1kg per unit of stuff? Seems a bit light even for a 1m creature?

Not really given a real astronaut only uses about 2.5kg or so and Kerbals are pretty small (We assume there is some built in recycling for water/oxygen in the capsules).

[MarcAFK]

I got into thinking (again, I know, beware, hide the children!): A density of 0.001 means 1kg per unit of stuff? Seems a bit light even for a 1m creature?

Keep in mind that a kerbal eats 1 unit a Kerbal day, which means a meal every 6 hours. So they're eating 4 kg's of food a day.

However keep in mind supplies also includes water, water or C02 filters, and packaging.

I recall that for every kilo of food sent to the ISS 150 grams of it is packaging.

[SaintWacko]

On my way home I had an interesting idea for this mod. It stemmed from the thought that these are trained Kerbonauts, and it doesn't make any sense for them to just quit working and sit there twiddling their thumbs when they run out of food, to the point that they won't even deploy parachutes to save themselves when plunging through the atmosphere. So I thought up a different explanation:

Kerbals, in times of danger, have the ability to go into hibernation, allowing them to survive indefinitely without food. While hibernating, of course, they are completely helpless, and cannot interact with the outside world.

That takes care of the explanation for how the mod works, and opens up some other interesting possibilities.

All command pods are equipped with a mechanism for waking a Kerbal from hibernation, and can do so at any time. However, the combined stress of running out of food, hibernating, and being woken from hibernation, means that the Kerbal will be unable to reenter hibernation until they have had a chance to rest and recover at the space center. Moreover, unless the Kerbal is fed within an hour of waking from hibernation, they will starve to death.

In my current save, I have a Kerbal who ran out of food on their way back from Minmus, and are just swinging in a big orbit around Kerbin. It was very annoying, because I was unable to do anything to rescue them until I unlocked the Klaw, as the craft did not have a docking port, and I was unable to EVA the Kerbal to move to a rescue vessel. Giving the ability to wake a Kerbal for an hour would offer solutions for rescue, as I could have either woken them up and EVA'd them to a rescue craft full of food, or woken them as they approached Kerbin and landed them. I'm not sure how possible any of this would be, but please let me know what you think!