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[DEVTHREAD]Pathfinder - Space Camping & Geoscience

Angelo Kerman

By Angelo Kerman
in KSP1 Mod Development

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rabidninjawombat

rabidninjawombat

Posted
Posted
hey, how does the prarie greenhouse work? i tried it, inflated it, time warped for 90 days, then i checked it an... nothing happend. im using USI life support, is that whats wrong?

Correct, As far as i know there isnt any USI life support...support, yet, :)

In the Release Thread, a helpful person posted a USI-LS config you can use.

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AdmiralTigerclaw

AdmiralTigerclaw

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Posted (edited)

This could really use a walkthrough for getting yourself going. Through sheer brute force, I've managed to get a test base running.

And I have to point something out. The iron works is a perpetual metal machine once you get even the smallest amount of ore into it.

Smelt the ore, then convert it to rocket parts. Scrap metal is left over, then you recycle scrap metal back into metal. However, the returned metal from recycling is higher than the original metal you started with.

Anyway, here's an image of my test structure, Manticor Mobile Field Base.

MFB_Manticor_zps4esaev1f.jpg

Everything came off that truck except starter rocket parts. I'm ignoring those for now. It's amazing what you can operate with a molten salt nuclear reactor.

Anyway, my opinion is that things need a little streamlining. I love it, but the whole configuration seems a little too cross dependent and it's quite counter intuitive (even with the popups) to realize that the geology lab needs the research kits made from the doc lab (in chemistry mode), but the doc lab needs ore from the drill, but the drill has an extraction efficiency of a grain of sand per cubic mile when you first start up until the geology lab can get into gear. Which is frustrating when you're not even sure if/how anything works beyond 'connect and inflate'.

I also noticed that your selection of the resource 'metal ore' does not show up on scansat's resources. Not knocking you or scan sat, but it might be prudent to change the ore type to 'metallic ore' since another mod seems to use that and it's already built into scansat.

And finally... The core drill seems lonely. Make it a drill mount part specifically for it to match this mod's flavor. A surface mount block and a girder work but... Heck, I'm sure it mounts to any old wall or parked truck, but still.

So yeah, my suggestions in a nutshell.

- Streamline operation or improve the instructions.

- Fix the ratios in the iron works... And probably double-check the other converter units.

- Suggest changing your 'metal ore' to 'metallic ore' so scan-sat can work with it (or at least be cross compatible with other mods)

- Add something to mount the mini core drill on that's looks the part. Because it's wronery.

And I apologize in advance if I seem curt or presumptuous (or really behind since I'm writing this at the end). It's four in the morning and I'm trying to dump my thoughts before I crash.

EDIT:

And I'm awake now and took a look in the cfg files. The iron works output values for the metals is actually completely messed up. Placeholder values of 1 in output ratios for recycle it seems.

Edited by AdmiralTigerclaw
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linuxgurugamer

linuxgurugamer

Posted
Posted (edited)

Would you consider packaging this up as a supplimental mod? Wouldn't be difficult, just a NetKAN which would require Pathfinder.

I'd be happy to do this, but this would be a "Community Patch" to Pathfinder.

Let me know, I'd be abpe to get to it on Wednesday

LGG

another simple solution can be remove organics from science lab, use the pigpen for make organics from mulch and water and use the greenhouse for grow supplies from organics (probably that solution is the best way)


//This MM patch configures Pathfinder's life support systems to use USILS.

@PATHFINDER[Pigpen]:NEEDS[USILifeSupport]
{
MODULE
{
    name = ModuleResourceConverter
    ConverterName = Composter
    StartActionName = Start Composter
    StopActionName = Stop Composter
    AutoShutdown = false
    GeneratesHeat = false
    UseSpecialistBonus = true
    SpecialistEfficiencyFactor = 0.2
    SpecialistBonusBase = 0.05
    Specialty = Engineer
    EfficiencyBonus = 1

    INPUT_RESOURCE
    {
        ResourceName = Mulch
        Ratio = 0.0002
    }

    INPUT_RESOURCE
    {
        ResourceName = Water
        Ratio = 0.0002
    }

    INPUT_RESOURCE
    {
        ResourceName = ElectricCharge
        Ratio = 12
    }

    OUTPUT_RESOURCE
    {
        ResourceName = Organics
        Ratio = 0.0003
        DumpExcess = false
    }
}
}

@GREENHOUSE[Prairie]:NEEDS[USILifeSupport]
{

MODULE
{
    name = WBIGreenhouse
    ConverterName = Cultivator
    StartActionName = Start Cultivator
    StopActionName = Stop Cultivator
    AutoShutdown = false
    GeneratesHeat = false
    UseSpecialistBonus = true
    SpecialistEfficiencyFactor = 0.2
    Specialty = Scientist
    EfficiencyBonus = 1
    hoursPerCycle = 540 //Number of hours to grow crops
    minimumSuccess = 45
    criticalSuccess = 90
    criticalFail = 20
    cropResource = Supplies
    cropYield = 388.8 //You'll have about a year's worth of Snacks for one kerbal.
    criticalSuccessBonus = 0.25
    failureLoss = 0.5

    INPUT_RESOURCE
    {
        ResourceName = ElectricCharge
        Ratio = 12
    }

    INPUT_RESOURCE
    {
        ResourceName = Organics
        Ratio = 0.0002
    }

    REQUIRED_RESOURCE
    {
        ResourceName = Organics
        Ratio = 390
    }

}

RESOURCE
{
    name = Mulch
    amount = 1000
    maxAmount = 1000
    isTweakable = true
}

RESOURCE
{
    name = Supplies
    amount = 1000
    maxAmount = 1000
    isTweakable = true
}

RESOURCE
{
    name = Organics
    amount = 1000
    maxAmount = 1000
    isTweakable = true
}

}

Edit

For the drill problem, that happens if is not done a survey scan, probably is better add a error message than have a empty windows

Edit2

Is not allowed an ISRU Module ?

Regards Luca

Edited by linuxgurugamer
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Angelo Kerman

Angelo Kerman

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...

So yeah, my suggestions in a nutshell.

- Streamline operation or improve the instructions.

- Fix the ratios in the iron works... And probably double-check the other converter units.

- Suggest changing your 'metal ore' to 'metallic ore' so scan-sat can work with it (or at least be cross compatible with other mods)

- Add something to mount the mini core drill on that's looks the part. Because it's wronery.

EDIT:

And I'm awake now and took a look in the cfg files. The iron works output values for the metals is actually completely messed up. Placeholder values of 1 in output ratios for recycle it seems.

Thanks for the feedback. I based the metal ratios on Extraplanetary Launchpads. I'll take a look and make sure they match those from EL. I thought they did...

MetaOre also comes from EL; when I integrate another mod, such as EL or OSE Workshop, I adopt the resources it uses. If I created my own resources, you'd have to do some mental flips to figure out the production chain depending upon which mod you're using, and the integrated mod's storage tanks would no longer be helpful. Pathfinder does revert to MetallicOre->Metals->RocketParts when EL isn't installed. Maybe what's needed is for EL to patch ScanSat so it will show up.

Thanks for the suggestion on the Gold Digger. There was a request for a generic equipment tripod earlier, I'll add your suggestion to the list.

Finally, I'll put my technical writing skills to use and update the wiki page so folks know how the modules inter-relate. :)

Sorry for being a bit of an idiot, But how do i get metallic ore? is there a recommended mod to use to get a metallic ore drill?

No worries. :) To drill for MetallicOre, right-click on a drill (both Gold Digger and stock Drill-O-Matic), and press the "Modify Drill" button. You'll see a window where you can change what the drill extracts. I'll be sure to include these steps in the wiki. :)

Cool, glad you've got a patch that works. :)

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AdmiralTigerclaw

AdmiralTigerclaw

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Wiki isn't written yet, but the link to the page is here.

Yeah, found it googling. Kind of skimpy, I agree.

Anyway, let me do some math on the input-output.

So assuming an input of ore:

SMELT:

MetalOre input is 0.047905

Metal Output is 0.699431

So for every one unit of Metal Ore the module processes...

X * 0.047905 = 1

x = 20.8746477 etc...

Essentially, 1/20th a metal ore unit is put in.

Over half a unit of metal comes out.

If we're talking a 1 for 1 weight ratio in units, then the result is rather obvious.

You put in a unit of ore, get out 14 units of metal. Somehow, that's fabricated quite a bit. I would expect really to come out with less metal than starting ore.

That ratio only makes sense if the unit weights are two different animals, but even then the mass and volumes are beastly things to consider on the side.

ROCKET PARTS:

Input: 0.0195 Metal

Output: 0.7 rocket parts

Output2: 0.2995 scrap metal

1 * x = 0.0195

x = 51.28205 etc...

So here, we have 1/51rst a unit of metal makes 70 percent of a rocket part. I can call that reasonable if metal units are big, and rocket parts are small. I can even understand that scrap metal is 0.2995 because that 0.0005 is shavings and dust lost to the process. In fact, this is the most reasonable conversion I've seen.

But it's important to take 51 * 0.3 = 15.3 (all values rounded) So for every unit of metal, we get 15 units of scrap...

So then, looking at recycling... these numbers just OFFEND.

RECYCLE:

Input 0.00172 scrap metal

Output: 1 Metal

No X equals here to find the 1 value, just divide out. For every 1 unit of scrap, you somehow get 581 units of metal back. So 1 unit of metal makes 3500 units of rocket parts, 15 units of scrap, and 1 unit of scrap turns itself back into 581 units of metal. So every cycle you inflate... 8,715.I don't know what they're thinking over in EL, but I really hope none of them are in economics. That kind of inflation would be catastrophic.

Really, if scrap metal is to be recycled, I would assume two things.

1 - Scrap metal is just metal, only in warped and shredded pieces. It weighs the same either way.

2 - Scrap metal is already refined, so when re-melting, there should be minimal to zero mass loss re-smelting.

So really, the recycle should recycle scrap metal back into metal at a 1:1 ratio.

Easiest change I'd hazard to make would be to just change the input ratio to 1 and increase the electric charge usage to match the smelter. Well... Not match it. 20 to 1, so 20 * 7.1 ish...

142.

But then, if the ratio is units per second, then keeping the speed ratio will mean backing the output off rather than bringing the input up to one. So the output should be backed from 1 down to 0.00172.

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Angelo Kerman

Angelo Kerman

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Yeah, found it googling. Kind of skimpy, I agree.

Anyway, let me do some math on the input-output.

So assuming an input of ore:

SMELT:

MetalOre input is 0.047905

Metal Output is 0.699431

So for every one unit of Metal Ore the module processes...

X * 0.047905 = 1

x = 20.8746477 etc...

Essentially, 1/20th a metal ore unit is put in.

Over half a unit of metal comes out.

If we're talking a 1 for 1 weight ratio in units, then the result is rather obvious.

You put in a unit of ore, get out 14 units of metal. Somehow, that's fabricated quite a bit. I would expect really to come out with less metal than starting ore.

That ratio only makes sense if the unit weights are two different animals, but even then the mass and volumes are beastly things to consider on the side.

ROCKET PARTS:

Input: 0.0195 Metal

Output: 0.7 rocket parts

Output2: 0.2995 scrap metal

1 * x = 0.0195

x = 51.28205 etc...

So here, we have 1/51rst a unit of metal makes 70 percent of a rocket part. I can call that reasonable if metal units are big, and rocket parts are small. I can even understand that scrap metal is 0.2995 because that 0.0005 is shavings and dust lost to the process. In fact, this is the most reasonable conversion I've seen.

But it's important to take 51 * 0.3 = 15.3 (all values rounded) So for every unit of metal, we get 15 units of scrap...

So then, looking at recycling... these numbers just OFFEND.

RECYCLE:

Input 0.00172 scrap metal

Output: 1 Metal

No X equals here to find the 1 value, just divide out. For every 1 unit of scrap, you somehow get 581 units of metal back. So 1 unit of metal makes 3500 units of rocket parts, 15 units of scrap, and 1 unit of scrap turns itself back into 581 units of metal. So every cycle you inflate... 8,715.I don't know what they're thinking over in EL, but I really hope none of them are in economics. That kind of inflation would be catastrophic.

Really, if scrap metal is to be recycled, I would assume two things.

1 - Scrap metal is just metal, only in warped and shredded pieces. It weighs the same either way.

2 - Scrap metal is already refined, so when re-melting, there should be minimal to zero mass loss re-smelting.

So really, the recycle should recycle scrap metal back into metal at a 1:1 ratio.

Easiest change I'd hazard to make would be to just change the input ratio to 1 and increase the electric charge usage to match the smelter. Well... Not match it. 20 to 1, so 20 * 7.1 ish...

142.

But then, if the ratio is units per second, then keeping the speed ratio will mean backing the output off rather than bringing the input up to one. So the output should be backed from 1 down to 0.00172.

I'm using densities per unit of resource to help match things up. According to the resource definitions established by Extraplanetary Launchpads, Metal has a density of 0.039 tonnes/unit, and ScrapMetal is 0.004 tonnes/unit. I've fixed it so that 9.75 units of ScrapMetal produces 1 unit of Metal, taking into account the density of Metal and ScrapMetal. Turning Metal into RocketParts is already done by EL and MetalOre into Metal is also done by EL and if you look at the comments in EL's smelters you'll see the process.

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AdmiralTigerclaw

AdmiralTigerclaw

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Whatever values actually make sense. I pulled my numbers from the EL files you cannibalized to make the iron works module work and about beat my head on a wall when I saw that output. About beat my head on a wall earlier when I wrote that math post and ended up with that insane cycle of inflation.

If anything, the value looked like a placeholder. More meant to test the module was working, than to actually be used. It definitely proved the module worked. I dug up maybe half a unit of Metal Ore and then turned that on when I originally reported the problem... Rocket Parts and Metal were full in ten minutes, real time.

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Angelo Kerman

Angelo Kerman

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What about the kerbol quest jetpacks? :P

Definitely still working on those. I've run into a snag and have to rethink the design. I can get the wings to attach to the kerbal via KIS, but currently they're uncontrollable. I think Kerbol quest had a custom seat that the kerbal sat on to use the wings, but I'm hoping to make things work with KIS instead.

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AdmiralTigerclaw

AdmiralTigerclaw

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Not Kerbal enough.

Try this:

KH53_SK_zpsw2vijzrv.jpg

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