Why the hate towards x64?

[nalfz]

I didn't mean that as a jab at you

but yeah, the linux version is fantastic, it's way more stable than the windows version (almost certainly because the windows version is either 32 bit or buggy 64 bit)

[Mysterion]

Not done reading this post, but I've seen several modders post here, +1 admin/player semi-argument. While I did very much use Win64 KSP, If Win64 and Win32 KSP were both separate civilizations, this- to me- seems to be what the beginning of a Win-War would be like.

[jrodriguez]

Hi guys,

I have been doing some testing to see if I can break my KSP winx64 but I couln't break it! So I'm happy and I love you guys

What was my test about? One Kervin circumnavigation with FAR + visual mods with high quality textures (astronomer,etc..) flying a pretty exotic beauty - my replica of the xb-70 valkyrie! (Folding wings down using IR)

Javascript is disabled. View full album

During the session the RAM used by KSP.exe process was something between 4600 Mb (at the beginning ) - 2500 Mb (finishing) I'm running KSP 1.04 on a Windows 10 x64 Preview.

Screenshot of KSP + Resource Monitor.

FYI: I crashed 4 km before the runway I ran out of fuel and it was dark...

Edited June 28, 2015 by jrodriguez

[RoverDude]

Congratulations. You have an anecdote. This does not in fact change the reality, no matter how many times you repeat an anecdote. You are confusing anecdotes with data. And the fun thing about this... the real proof in the pudding is the jokers hopping over to the mod support threads who are in fact crashing and having weird non-mod-related bugs.

I strongly suspect Ferram4 is not a big mean liar and in his install, this thing is still crashing. As it is for me. My install of Win64 crashed pretty reliably, so I no longer use it because the crash to game ratio was too high, and a Linux partition makes a lot more sense for me.

As folks have stated (and what seems to be repeatedly ignored), there will always be lucky folks who, through a combination of hardware/drivers/blind luck get this to work reliably enough. And then there will be the rest of the people who, experience has shown, will try to ask for support and intentionally hide the fact that they are using Win64 and having Win64 crashes - who are completely convinced that it's the mod's fault, despite it being Win64 instability.

The publishing of an 'UnFixer' is damaging to the community, disrespectful to the people providing you free content, and ultimately will result in less modders, less mods, and a push for more restrictive licensing (and we've already seen this start to happen). Now, if you feel that your personal crusade is worth that cost, nobody can stop you. But don't be surprised at what the end result is.

[Megan]

If Win64 and Win32 KSP were both separate civilizations, this- to me- seems to be what the beginning of a Win-War would be like.

That's a war neither side should want to fight or win. We all want good mods, and we all want KSP to be a stable 64-bit application.

Things like this unfixer are dragging people who want nothing to do with any of this into a stupid, pointlessly destructive confrontation in which each side tries to iteratively counter the other and neither can have the last word.

That is a recipe for uncontrolled escalation. At some point Squad will be forced to step in officially, and given their deft touch with community relations, that thought should give you all nightmares - no matter whose side you think they might take.

Oh, why am I even bothering? It's just like so many other conflicts in history. I wish y'all were kerbals IRL. I could distract you with something shiny for a year and no one would get hurt. But, humans. So yeah, carry on, rip each other apart, all because you just can't wait, and you simply must have the fruit of someone else's labor right now, exactly the way you want it, even after he points out that you're hurting him and he asks you politely to stop.

[G'th]

I see the hate as a result of modders mostly being incapable of distancing their personal feelings from people who come to comment on their mod. Its not really unique to this community. I've been in dozens of different modding communities and there are always people who end up lashing out at the players because of a bunch of whiny people who messed things up for themselves.

In essence, because modders can't or won't not take things personally, us who also get issues when we essentially break the warranty (but know enough not to moan about it like its the modders fault) get screwed when the modders lash out and lock out access. Its being petty in response to people being petty. I was a modder myself and my mods had plenty of complaints along these lines, and I always helped the people who came in and spoke reasonably. The people who didn't? I ignored. Simple fact of the matter is, even if someone is actively lashing out at you for not supporting them (When they voided the warranty), then its on the moderators to step in and nix it in the bud. Screwing over everybody else isn't a solution.

I'm honestly just thankful that OpenGL exists and works for me, because otherwise I'd have to force myself to learn Linux to play the game the way I want to.

- - - Updated - - -

I see the hate as a result of modders mostly being incapable of distancing their personal feelings from people who come to comment on their mod. Its not really unique to this community. I've been in dozens of different modding communities and there are always people who end up lashing out at the players because of a bunch of whiny people who messed things up for themselves.

In essence, because modders can't or won't not take things personally, us who also get issues when we essentially break the warranty (but know enough not to moan about it like its the modders fault) get screwed when the modders lash out and lock out access. Its being petty in response to people being petty. I was a modder myself and my mods had plenty of complaints along these lines, and I always helped the people who came in and spoke reasonably. The people who didn't? I ignored. Simple fact of the matter is, even if someone is actively lashing out at you for not supporting them (When they voided the warranty), then its on the moderators to step in and nix it in the bud. Screwing over everybody else isn't a solution.

I'm honestly just thankful that OpenGL exists and works for me, because otherwise I'd have to force myself to learn Linux to play the game the way I want to.

[JeeF]

I see the hate as a result of modders mostly being incapable of distancing their personal feelings from people who come to comment on their mod. Its not really unique to this community. I've been in dozens of different modding communities and there are always people who end up lashing out at the players because of a bunch of whiny people who messed things up for themselves.

Yes' date=' quite obviously.

Main reason people publish mods is the same reason why people look for fame, renown, etc. Feels good to be praised.

Of course 99% of the modders would rush here and deny, stating they do it seldom. Truth is, there are NO selfless good deeds.

I was a modder for a very long time, cos I just loved putting creativity into the game, but publishing it was purely for fame.

The topic where it's published becomes their happy place. And nobody will come into your happy place to bash things around, hell no.

So yeah, obviously it's personal. You can sense it in the way they talk. I don't blame them, I'd take it personally as well.

[b']@Jrodrigues,

A way to accomplish all of this without annoying the modders who currently 'dislike' the win64 idea is to re-release each mod under a different name.

If people think it's a new mod, they will not associate it to others, hence "whinning' only on your topic.

If released with a topic title such as "Mod X exclusive to the 64bit workaround", mostly only those with the workaround will come and check, keeping the cries to a minimum.

Worth a try imo.

[RoverDude]

Ahh. So now 'modders are selfish bad guys'. Ad Hominims aside, this has little to do with feelings, and more about signal to noise, as Ferram4 has already noted (and experienced). He's delt with forks, unfixers, etc. - and promises by the community to keep the support issues away have been repeatedly broken. People who used a fork and were supposed to stick to that thread kept coming to his thread, etc. - it wastes time he could spend supporting users who are utilizing a supported product. That's pretty much it. And it's been played out repeatedly.

And re-labeling the mod with a new name isn't going to quite cut it, since it's going to be a pretty obvious fork. And you will likely get locked licensing. As has been said repeatedly.. it's one thing to do this on your own save and peel off the labels. But actively circumventing protections modders put in place to help you folks by reducing said noise is, as noted, ultimately destructive to the community.

Nobody's going to stop you, but don't look shocked when the result is not quite what you expect.

[Megan]

It's not like this is a hypothetical. As RoverDude pointed out, this has already happened. It's been publicly demonstrated that the promises from you x64 unfixers can't be kept, even if they were made in good faith. Giving you the benefit of every doubt, the fact remains that you can't control other people's behavior.

"Why the hate?" Why the insistence on counterfactuals?

[G'th]

It takes zero effort to weed out someone using an unsupported configuration. All it takes is one question.

I didn't say that modders are selfish. Cool strawman there. I said that modders are being petty when they unilaterally deny certain players (or all players, as has and can happen) access to the mod because of other people being whiny on the internet. Is it unreasonable for them to do so? No. But is it a fair solution? Not even remotely.

There's zero reason to deny access like that (especially when you offer zero alternative*) and ultimately it hurts the people you're doing all of this for. People not going to the right place for support (or just plain trolling for that matter) is a moderation issue, and its not solved by shutting down access.

As I've said, I've seen this same situation play out countless times, and in the end, its the users who lose out.

*Its not hard to provide a version that doesn't shut down in x64, and its not even something you have to call attention to. Those who actively want x64 for your mod and know what that entails are going to find it and use it.

EDIT: I'd also like it to be known that I don't use x64. OpenGL works better for me and I don't have to go recompiling mods every time theres a new version.

Edited June 29, 2015 by G'th

[Superfluous J]

It takes zero effort to weed out someone using an unsupported configuration. All it takes is one question.

One question is not zero effort. It's small, sure, but it's not zero. and small nonzero effort tends to multiply into large annoying effort when a lot of people put that effort on you.

By your reasoning it takes zero effort to realize you're playing the mod on an unsupported platform, and therefore should take zero reasoning skills to realize you should STFU and not bug the modder when he or she specifically said you were doing something unsupported.

Things that also take zero effort: Asking for CKAN support on the CKAN thread instead of muddying every modder's thread; and searching a thread instead of posing your question (usually with the acridly ironic, "this thread is way too many pages for me to read it all") that's been asked hundreds of times (all with that same claim).

Edited June 29, 2015 by 5thHorseman

[G'th]

It is zero effort for me, because I've been modding games for years and I know enough not to bother the modder when I go messing around with the internals of their mod. (Unless its to ask how )

Not everyone on the internet is like that. And yes, one question is zero effort. If I had a mod that went as deep as Ferram's go, that'd be the first question I'd ask regardless. You literally have to not like supporting your users if you think one question is too much effort, no matter how many people are coming to your mod's page.

[Vanamonde]

Modders are volunteers, and that means they are not obligated to offer their work on any terms other than those they wish to undertake. (Beyond the forum rules, anyway.) It really doesn't matter whether someone else feels that is justified, and it's not really up to anyone else to second-guess their motivations. You use their mods under their terms, or you don't use them. Please, folks, do not go insulting them because you dislike the fact that they're doing something which is entirely within their rights to do.

You may make a case in an attempt to persuade them (not in their own threads, again), but insulting them and making enemies out of them is not going to make them any more willing to do what you want.

Modders, please also try to keep in mind that these people are so anxious to access your products because they like what you're offering. They may be trying to persuade you to do something you do not want to do, but that doesn't make them your enemies.

[ferram4]

Not everyone on the internet is like that. And yes' date=' one question is zero effort. If I had a mod that went as deep as Ferram's go, that'd be the first question I'd ask regardless. You literally have to not like supporting your users if you think one question is too much effort, no matter how many people are coming to your mod's page.[/quote']

And there are a few problems with this idea.

1. People lie. Shocking, I know, but when telling the truth means you don't get support, period, but lying means that you might if you can hide using win64, people will lie. So the question is a waste of time.
   
2. They're not the only ones trying to get support. If they're successful in lying, or just flooding the thread enough that all I see are obvious win64 issues, you know what I do? I stop reading and go find something else to work on, and the guy who was actually suffering an issue looking for help? He gets jack. He got buried under two pages of win64 complaints (it's happened)? He's never getting any support, because I'll never see it.
   
3. People try stupid things to fix systems they don't understand. It's funny, the first solution people take is to find the part they understand the least and delete it. Well, now the bugs don't look like win64 issues anymore (because they're effectively user installation issues now, or god knows what), and as noted earlier, people lie. So now I'm off on a wild goose chase.
   

Think beyond the initial problems, think what happens two, three, four consequences out.

And I'm petty for wanting to avoid these problems and instead address actual issues. >_> All these problems would be non-issues if I just decided to not provide support at all, but apparently trying to provide support for the people that I actually can help is considered messed up. The KSP community confuses me a lot sometimes.

[G'th]

That's the nature of tech support.

And its not petty to want to avoid it. Its petty to lock out users who aren't doing anything wrong simply because they happen to be using something unsupported. Thats the crux of why I don't like when modders do this. As I said, its perfectly reasonable why you did it. Doesn't change the fact though that you're punishing people who didn't do anything wrong.

[severedsolo]

That's the nature of tech support.

And its not petty to want to avoid it. Its petty to lock out users who aren't doing anything wrong simply because they happen to be using something unsupported. Thats the crux of why I don't like when modders do this. As I said' date=' its perfectly reasonable why you did it. Doesn't change the fact though that you're punishing people who didn't do anything wrong.[/quote']

I think the term "this is why we can't have nice things" comes to mind.

Real life example a few weeks ago: one of my contract packs was throwing an unhandled exception in Contract Configurator. It was un-reproducable in any supported installs. Suddenly (nearly 2 weeks later) the user goes "oh I'm using win64, could that be something to do with it?" - the net result was that nightingale immediately disabled win64 support in Contract Configurator.

Not only did the user waste their own time, they wasted nightingales (in trying to track down a ghost NRE) and mine (because I had to comb my contract pack to make sure it wasn't something I had done). We do this for free. I have an 18 month old daughter, I know that nightingale also has a family. We really have better things to do.

That's the nature of tech support.

But modders are not tech support! They (we?) are a group of players who happen to enjoy adding new things to the game! Sure if we make a mistake we'll fix it, but we're not here to babysit.

Honestly, I agree with ferram - it has been shown time and time again that people just can't be trusted to understand that win64 isn't supported. What do you do when you can't trust someone with something? You make it so they can't have it.

[Megan]

That's the nature of tech support.

People get paid for tech support.

[ferram4]

I'm punishing them... because I'm leaving them in the exact state they would be in if I weren't here producing mods? I think your baseline is a little off. They're not hurt at all; they just don't get benefits of those mods like users of more stable platforms do.

I suppose Squad is petty because they pulled the win64 build as well, rather than just declaring it to be unsupported and letting users who aren't doing anything wrong continue using it?

[Superfluous J]

I'm punishing them... because I'm leaving them in the exact state they would be in if I weren't here producing mods?

This right here is the crux of it. You have 2 choices:

1) 32-bit supported mod, with an annoying workaround to get it to work in 64 bits that if you do it you'd better shut up about any problems you encounter.

2) Nothing.

The third option:

3) Everything you want for no work on your part.

doesn't exit.

[steve_v]

Its petty to lock out users who aren't doing anything wrong simply because they happen to be using something unsupported.

Professional tech support does this all the time' date=' most large professional applications do a platform/dependency check at install time, do they not?

What does Microsoft say if you call up about running the latest MS Orifice on Solaris x64, or Windows '98? They tell you, "Not happening, that platform is unsupported, sorry." They don't have to explain why, or waste time arguing about it.

Win64 is broken: Squad says so, Unity says so, The modders say so. In fact, pretty much everybody who actually works with the code says so. Case closed, nothing to see here, come back when KSP/Unity on win64 is a thing.

Having this argument [i']again is utterly pointless. If you must have 64bit right now, go install Linux.

Biting the hand that feeds helps nobody, neither does making the doing of dumb things easier, e.g. the "unfixer" (which does exactly as it's name suggests).

Again, the informational approach has been tried. It failed.

The compatibility checker was, in a way, to be a "motivation test" by requiring a recompile. It's not difficult, it's not being nasty, it's simply what was needed to fix the problem at the time.

That this thread exists indicates that the situation has not changed.

Edited June 29, 2015 by steve_v

[Megan]

Also, every time someone reports an issue with FAR, Ferram has to ask, "x64?" (if unspecified). Whether the answer is yes or no, that's 1 read + 1 question + 1 reply + 1 "Go away" or "Okay then I'll take a look." That isn't "zero effort," for heaven's sake. That's time out of his day.

[Jarin]

Yes, quite obviously.

Main reason people publish mods is the same reason why people look for fame, renown, etc. Feels good to be praised.

Of course 99% of the modders would rush here and deny, stating they do it seldom. Truth is, there are NO selfless good deeds.

Holy hell, someone's projecting hard enough to put an IMAX to shame.

[Guest]

Holy hell, someone's projecting hard enough to put an IMAX to shame.

I, too, was wondering who the hell that guy is telling me why I mod.

[jrodriguez]

Congratulations. You have an anecdote. This does not in fact change the reality, no matter how many times you repeat an anecdote. You are confusing anecdotes with data

I agree, I will continue doing testing on different Setups.

I strongly suspect Ferram4 is not a big mean liar and in his install, this thing is still crashing. As it is for me. My install of Win64 crashed pretty reliably, so I no longer use it because the crash to game ratio was too high, and a Linux partition makes a lot more sense for me.

Who is saying that anyone is lying? I trust you, Ferram4 and Squad. I have only provided an isolated scenario in which my KSP is stable.

The publishing of an 'UnFixer' is damaging to the community, disrespectful to the people providing you free content, and ultimately will result in less modders, less mods, and a push for more restrictive licensing (and we've already seen this start to happen). Now, if you feel that your personal crusade is worth that cost, nobody can stop you. But don't be surprised at what the end result is.

First of all, the only reason why I decide to publish the tool was because I thought that it could be useful for someone else (and it was). I agree that it is a dirty hack and there are much better and neat ways to do this. And yes, if I were a modder and I found that someone is hacking my code, I will not be happy with that.

Having said that, I'm here to contribute and I would like to reach an agreement about a solution which could make happy modders & users that want to try easily KSP Win x64, and I will be happy to implement this solution. ( I have some ideas that are much more complex to implement but that will have more neat and fair results)

[Megan]

Y'all ain't "contributing." You're hacking off the people who are.