What's With The Hate?

[Xannari Ferrows]

it actually was. so try again.

It wasn't. I'm talking about innovative features, and you're referring to product quality. Two different things.

[Jon144]

Let me put this all straight.

Why all this dissatisfaction now and not before? Why has everything taken such a sudden change?

Before Kerbal Space Program was in a developmental stage. Nobody ever critiqued anything too harshly because we knew absolutely everything was open to change. We loved and admired all the positives and cared little for the negatives because we always expected them to be changed or fixed by the full release.

Out of the blue though "beta" was announced. Beta in quotation marks because there was absolutely no such thing as beta. What squad released as a beta was just a preview release to see what squad was working on. There was no testing involved in beta because there was nothing to test. Everything in Beta was just a polished version of everything in alpha.

This is because in a similar fashion to the beta announcement... Version 1.0 was announced! And with version 1.0 Squad dropped in several untested and unrefined game aspects. The larger landing gear released in 1.0 do not have spinning animations or steering... or suspension... Aerodynamics and heat came out of nowhere and are still being changed.

Even the fairings and heat shields were released with flawed mass and drag values. Causing capsules reentering to flip over and explode.

Bugs that existed since the first public release still exist. Game performance and FPS are nearly at an all time low.

Technically this "Full Release" is not a full release because it is still being tested. We should still be in BETA right now because it is evident little to no testing has gone into the full release.

We can't overlook these flaws anymore because Squad is selling it as an officially finished product.

The currently negative outlook by a large part of the community is entirely misread. We only care so much because this is one of our favorite games ever made.

Edited June 29, 2015 by Jon144

[Xannari Ferrows]

We can't overlook these flaws anymore because Squad is selling it as an officially finished product.

If I asked you to count the number of stars in all the cosmos, would the task ever be complete? Okay, you can calculate the number of stars likely to be in the observable universe, and mark your observation as complete, but since the Hubble sphere is constantly moving, and mass distribution of what you've observed so far is always changing, you're task is never done.

[PB666]

People are starting to "hate" the game and the devs only because they love the game so much. They're just angry at what Squad's been doing over the past year (the beta that never existed, the 1.0 release that was alpha quality, the PS4 release when the game was still buggy as hell, etc).

Unrelatedly, the first thing I did when I got to this thread was to set a uBlock filter to block your signature. There's a fine line between "big enough to see" and "too damn big".

YeEah, I'm really tired of the big sig-line images also. Its like allcaps, net loon signature.

[Mister Kerman]

If I asked you to count the number of stars in all the cosmos, would the task ever be complete? Okay, you can calculate the number of stars likely to be in the observable universe, and mark your observation as complete, but since the Hubble sphere is constantly moving, and mass distribution of what you've observed so far is always changing, you're task is never done.

I don't think that's a very effective metaphor. Obviously you could never count all the stars in the universe; We're talking about quality control of a game.

I agree people are blowing it out of proportion, but if you're going to release a game and call it a finished product, (especially with an entire community involved, heavily influencing the development with their positive and negative feedback and suggestions) then there's bound to be a little blowback from rushing the transition out of beta when addressed bugs and proposed features are still up in the air.

It's not our game, it's SQUAD's. I respect their direction and I love their game and have no complaints because they continue to provide support and updates. But the fact is that this isn't a "finished game". If they stopped providing bug fixes and new features, I don't think that even you would be fine with that, regardless of whether or not it's your right to have a say it in the decision.

Edited June 29, 2015 by Mister Kerman

[Jon144]

It is still a great game. There is just an upset because there are very evident problems in a very rushed release. It is not about fixing every little minute problem that exists because that is impossible.

The thing is that there is a lot of big stuff still around that needs attention but never got it.

[basic.syntax]

It is still a great game. There is just an upset because there are very evident problems in a very rushed release. It is not about fixing every little minute problem that exists because that is impossible. The thing is that there is a lot of big stuff still around that needs attention but never got it.

Not "never got it" - just - not yet. For example, the wheels you wrote about earlier, are being reinvented (lol) for v1.1. I would be very surprised if after rebuilding all the wheels, that they don't rotate

And personally, I wouldn't have held up the release just for a visual problem with a new wheel. When a company informs their various partners about a release date, it takes a very serious problem to justify going back to all those business partners to tell them the plan has changed.

[mrclucks]

Squad has messed up, but only on their numbers. Calling .90 a beta but still having a beta like game a couple versions later can be confusing. Once a game is released it shouldn't go through any major change.

Now I just look at squads version numbers as a progression and look forward to the latest version . we will know when the game is actually released just from the feel of it.

So while some of you moan and groan about every single bug, I'm here enjoying the ride politely bring a bug to attention.

[razark]

If I asked you to count the number of stars in all the cosmos, would the task ever be complete? Okay, you can calculate the number of stars likely to be in the observable universe, and mark your observation as complete, but since the Hubble sphere is constantly moving, and mass distribution of what you've observed so far is always changing, you're task is never done.

Three. Can you count to three?

There are three phases of a mission. Launch, flight operations, and recovery.

As released, KSP 1.0 could not handle a capsule with a parachute and a heat shield re-entering correctly, the most basic and (most likely) the most common first re-entry players are going to try. And it didn't work.

No, I don't expect a perfect game. But if they're going to slap "1.0" on it and call it a release version, they could at least get the damn basics right. If they can't get something as simple as a three-part, common sense re-entry to work out of the box, why should we have faith that the more complex issues were dealt with?

[stevehead]

So while some of you moan and groan about every single bug, I'm here enjoying the ride politely bring a bug to attention.

Most people recognize that bugs will be always be present, and whenever you fix something or introduce a new feature, you are likely to create a new set of bugs. It's the nature of software development. But what many of us are complaining about is the fact that there are annoying bugs that have been present for several releases that still have not been fixed, and the fact that new bugs have been introduced because of rushing releases and an apparent lack of general quality assurance/testing. The temperature gauge memory leak, the trailing launch clamps post-launch, the save-breaking heat shields of 1.0.3, and the NullRef log spam with the parachutes in 1.0.4 are all examples issues that should have been easily detected if they had tested the game properly before their respective releases. When I was last working as a web applications developer, my boss would have fired me if I had consistent bug-ridden code like KSP does; now granted I was writing web services for multi-million dollar e-commerce sites in which my code handled pricing and payment transactions, so a screw up by me could have cost that company a lot of money, so I had that type of pressure to test my stuff thoroughly.

[severedsolo]

People like to get up on the soapbox.

Pre 1.0 announcements, a load of people made a big deal about aero. Now squad did it, and those complaints have (largely) gone away. Then a different subset of people (who may or may not include some of the original group) - complained about the 1.0 aero. Then squad changed it again in 1.0.1 and 1.0.2 - the people who liked the 1.0 aero then complained that they liked it before.

Bottom line, you can't please everybody, and people are more likely to complain than they are to compliment sadly.

[G'th]

Whats funny is that if your rocket was well designed, it shouldn't be flying very differently between any of the versions. At the worst, you just have to adjust how YOU fly the rocket.

I'm pretty certain its the largest reason why people who were used to mods like FAR didn't have any issues with the new aero. (outside of bugs and things that shouldn't be the way they are from a realistic viewpoint)

[Vanamonde]

"The hate" is not a new thing. I've been on the forum for 3 years, and it seems to come in waves, from time to time.

Everybody has an idea of what the final game should be like, and each new version is inevitably going to please some people and disappoint others. Each addition to the game closes off somebody's hope that some other thing should have been added instead, and this is only going to continue as development continues. You can be disappointed about that, and you can even be frustrated about it. But please, do not make enemies out of the people whose hopes for the game run counter to your own. This thread is getting into personal animosities, and we'd rather not have to start issuing infractions, or close the thread.

[Megan]

Everybody has an idea of what the final game should be like, and each new version is inevitably going to please some people and disappoint others.

Thing is, as Geschosskopf noted a few pages ago,

It's a lot of reasons. Different people have become annoyed at different times for different reasons. The bottom line is that through a number of chaotic recent changes, which arguably have made the game rather less fun, stable, and playable, Squad has managed to stir up some level of resentment in pretty much everybody.

It seems to be escalating because it is escalating, because the critical mass of people affected inevitably increases if you do nothing.

Claw is wonderful, but his stock bug fixes modules should not need to exist. That they still do after so long is a travesty.

Squad needs to devote 100% of their time to fixing everything that's wrong, that is known to be wrong, that has been known to be wrong for versions after versions after versions. It's unfair to the moderation team, it's unfair to modders, and it's unfair to the players that a list of bugs stickied on Squad's own official forums has no official fix. Stop introducing new mechanics, new systems, and new parts, no matter how well or how poorly various people think you're doing it. Fix what's broken first, upgrade to Unity 5 first, upgrade to 64bit first, do maintenance first, and take your time and get it right, please.

We don't "hate" KSP. We don't "hate" Squad. We all want KSP to be a huge success, and we want KSP to deserve it. 1.0.3 and 1.0.4 don't help enough and they go in the wrong direction overall.

There should be no "official" bugs. Can't you guys see how wrong that sounds?

[Megan]

[SAI Peregrinus]

Forums provide a very distorted view of the playerbase. Most players (>90% for most games) never visit the official forums, or even most unofficial forums. And those that do are far more likely doing so because of a complaint, because when everything's going well you play the game instead of posting on the forums.

So you should always expect the majority of the commentary to be negative. The happy people are enjoying the product.

[Tankman101]

Squad needs to devote 100% of their time to fixing everything that's wrong,

The aero and heating were pretty wrong.

[Zucal]

So you should always expect the majority of the commentary to be negative. The happy people are enjoying the product.

I mean, the majority of people won't be the negative ones, they'll be the ones who want to voice their opinion most. Those overlap a bit, but right now is a particularly rough time in terms of people not liking some of Squad's decisions. At other times it's the exact opposite.

[Megan]

The aero and heating were pretty wrong.

Agreed, and I don't fault them personally for (partway) fixing those. It doesn't affect me at all because I backed up 1.0.2, and I play FAR and NF HC anyway. But some have argued in this thread that it might confuse new people, and I can see that point of view. Changing the fundamental basis for the first 5 minutes of a new player's game shouldn't be done casually or frequently. We're not all complaining because we're bitter, old, nasty, "entitled," elitists, or whatever the slur of the day might be. Some of us are sincerely trying to look at the broader picture, and how all this affects KSP in the long run.

And of course there's always the issue of mods, which have to be recompiled (at least) or reconsidered practically from scratch (at worst). Career saves are also an issue for some, though I used career as a tutorial because sandbox overwhelmed me - regardless, that's a point of view that, though it's not necessarily mine, isn't invalid. Even non-career saves can be effectively broken, hundreds of hours of play thrown out the window, if someone has a ship or station in orbit that he's worked hard on, that's suddenly rendered useless because the laws of the universe have suddenly changed. Not everyone knows he should copy his Steam install elsewhere, just in case.

Tossing out these simultaneously huge and partial, casual, bug-ridden updates sends a very clear message to at least some players: "The time you invested in our product means nothing to us."

I'm all for fixes. I'm even more for careful, considered, integrated and tested fixes, done right.

That isn't "hate."

Edited June 29, 2015 by Megan

[DaMichel]

I think the game itself is fine. Very happy that Squad implemented a heating mechanics and a better aerodynamics model.

But the bugs! It seems that they pile up more and more with every version. Memory Leaks, Runaway Heating, Docking ports locking up. Then there is the refusal to optimize memory usage by loading stuff on demand. Squad only gets away with this because the gameplay is so good

[Vanamonde]

The majority of players are lurkers,

1149 users online. 198 members and 951 guests

or even non-forum visitors.

[Yemo]

People are starting to "hate" the game and the devs only because they love the game so much. They're just angry at what Squad's been doing over the past year (the beta that never existed, the 1.0 release that was alpha quality, the PS4 release when the game was still buggy as hell, etc).

Unrelatedly, the first thing I did when I got to this thread was to set a uBlock filter to block your signature. There's a fine line between "big enough to see" and "too damn big".

Exactly, including the signature blocking !

Especially since half the forum told them, that their no-beta + new features in release is a sure recipe for problems.

There was much more activity (on forums, twitch and so on) 2 months after 0.90, than 2 months after 1.0. Which is pretty telling...

[mythbusters844]

So basically they're like stalkers that want to kill someone because they won't marry them.

Also the fact they liked the game to begin with is debatable, but you'll probably just link to 4chans resident squad hate area, [lel].

Your arguments are mediocre enough, but resorting to personal insults is pathetic. Furthermore, instead of saying how bad and evil they are, why don't you go over there and tell those bullies how good KSP is and how much Squad has worked to bring this game to 1.0.

And once again, you misinterpreted my post.

Edited August 21, 2015 by mythbusters844
removed le 4chinz referenze XDDDDD

[Megan]

C'mon guys, despite the title and the passive-aggressive tone of some of the posts, it never does any good to engage in an antagonistic back-and-forth with fellow players in what should be a feedback thread.

[Tankman101]

...but resorting to personal insults is pathetic.

It would only be an insult if it was unfounded. Last time there was a discussion like this you said...

But a quick visit to /kspg/ should make it easier to understand.

Of COURSE you edited that out of the original post though.

As for going to /kspg/ to reason with them, there is no reasoning with them.

EDIT: As for mediocre arguments, "They hate it because they love it" is at the top of the charts.