MechJeb vs non MechJeb

[Motokid600]

I like being productive and consistent across a range of crafts. Mechjeb.

Though I still play without it. I play stock for a several months after a major update. Even long after MJ updates and a lot of mods ill play stock. Its a good practice. I find it refreshes your appreciation for all mods ten fold, especially MechJeb. Not to mention keeps your piloting skills sharp because often times mechjebs an idiot and I have to take over.

[TKO]

I'm pro-mechjeb. MechJeb is awesome. Most of my use of it is just information-displays. I don't rely on it, but there is many an hour I would have lost to boredom in KSP without it: I make planes and fly them around Kerbin looking for points of interest and occasionally deploying a rover. Is it cheating not to want to press up-arrow, up-arrow, up-arrow, for half an hour while it flies there? SAS doesn't take the curvature or Kerbin into account, so that you'd have to monitor and adjust too.

People who don't want to use it, that's just fine. People who don't want to use it, and want to label others that use it as cheats .. they just need to get over themselves. I've been to the moons and back many many times over the years, manually. And now the physics model has changed, I've done them many more times, manually again. But once I get bored with that, I'm happy to plug-in MechJeb, and sit back and have a cool drink, and browse the forums while it does the menial stuff for me.

[ko1Stein]

Mechjeb is excellent for beginners, since you can simply imitate its maneuvers and thus "learn by doing".

But at some point, MechJeb is just not able to fly whatever monstrosity you just put together.

[Evanitis]

MJ was invaluable in my learning process. These days I minimalize it's autopiloting feature, it's mostly there for the readouts and calculations. Though if I fly a really steady or overengineered craft, I sometimes still use it to do some burns or simple manuvers for me. Guess I could do just as well with KER, but 'jeb is what I got used to.

And just *thinking* about making an ion transfer manually gives me shivers. How do purists use that propulsion?

Edited July 15, 2015 by Evanitis

[includao]

MJ is VERY invaluable in my learning process as well. I started using MJ a lot before I started to do things on my own. MJ is essential for personalizing your own learning curve.

[rkman]

Ok lets take it to an extreme. Lets pretend Mechjeb PRO comes out. When you start up the mod you get a pop up window that asks you what you want to do. I pick the complete Jool challenge option...

So far MJ does not force you to use all its functions, no reason why a 'pro' version would do that.

[kiwi1960]

To end this discussion, and lets be fair... it is that!

It reminds me of a conversation I heard between some fighter planes escorting a C5 Galaxy cargo plane to the middle east!

The jets were making fun of the fact that the big plane was so slow and was a push button plane...

The pilot of the C5 said "Watch this..." and they did, for about 5 minutes, they saw nothing....

then the pilot got back to them and said "did you see that?"

The Jet pilots said no...

The answer they got shut them up for the rest of the flight...

"Ladies, I got up, went to the head (toilet) and while there, thought of you having to hold it in.... then, I went to the kitchen, thought about getting a nice cold coke, but poured myself a coffee instead. I ate one of the cookies our engineers wife had made for us and then went back to the cockpit....."

The lesson here is.... you may be competent at flying without Mechjeb, but there will be times you want a coffee or need to take a pee.... sure, you can pause the game.... BUT.... isn't that as unrealistic as MechJeb????? The fact is..... its an aid.... no one is forcing you to use it and you shouldn't belittle those that do....

:) Edited November 22, 2015 by kiwi1960

[r4pt0r]

How did this thread last 27 pages? Its pretty clear mechjeb is cheating.

[kiwi1960]

Please, hush now.... its been established by Stephen Hawking that mechjecb is not cheating.

[Goomblah]

Honestly, the most "cheaty" part about MJ is the MechJeb core itself. It's a ridiculously lightweight surface-mount probe core that uses power incredibly slowly, and provides full SAS before you unlock the more advanced cores.

IMO, the autopilot isn't the problem. There isn't anything MJ can do that I can't match or even do better, given time and proper tools - launch window calculators and KER readouts mostly, which could all even be done on paper if you [I]really[/I] want to. The only thing "cheaty" about it is that I don't have to babysit every single one of my burns or constantly make manual course corrections with stock SAS. To me, MJ represents several utility mods wrapped up in one (KER, Precise Node, Trajectories) plus better stability control. It doesn't magically enable me to do things that I couldn't do on a stock install, so I don't see how it's cheating at all.

[FungusForge]

AFAIK mechjeb has autopilot, but it also adds in some helpful non-autopilot tools of some manner. Personally though if I want more information (orbital, or otherwise) about my vessel I feel more comfortable with Kerbal Engineer. Personally to me, autopilot feels kind of like a "I wanna play the game, but I don't want to [I]play [/I]the game" kinda thing, but having Desert Bus'd on Arkas (a two hour drive moving a giant rover from its landing site to the landing zone of various crew and equipment, so it could help move things around) I can understand the appeal of autopilot.

[Superfluous J]

[quote name='r4pt0r']how did this thread last 27 pages? Its pretty clear [s]mechjeb is cheating[/s] threads like this should be closed before they've even begun.[/quote]

TIFTFY :D

[COLOR="#FFFFFF"]This text added so the forum won't lowercase my acronym AND the D in the smiley face making it a :d instead of a :D[/COLOR]

[EdFred]

For the MJ is cheating camp, if I want to go fly manually, I get in my car or truck, drive to my hangar, pull out my plane and go fly it. Oh, but wait..
I have an electric door on the hangar, I don't open it by hand, I guess that's cheating.
I have an electric starter, I guess that's cheating since I don't hand prop the plane to start.
I have a engine monitoring system so I know whether or not I'm running too rich, or too lean - I guess that's cheating since I'm not taking manual readings by licking my finger and placing it on the exhaust or cylinder to see how long it is before I get a 3rd degree burn.
I have a clock in the plane to let me know when I should switch fuel tanks - I'm not calculating where the sun is in relation to where I am, and figuring out I've been flying for an hour.
I have a GPS in the plane where I can program in where I'm going, which also tells me ground speed, ETA, ETE, distance remaining, my latitude and longitude, gives me a descent profile, etc...
I also have an altimeter in the plane that tells me my altitude. I'm not taking manual readings and attempting to hold an altitude based on a reading I take and calculate every minute.
Looks like a nice day out. I think I will drive out to the airport and go do some REAL flying, not like the cheating you do on a computer.

Oh, wait driving is cheating, maybe I should walk the 18 miles to the airport. Wait, I'm using a road built by someone else. I guess that's cheating since I'm not using a compass and slashing my way through forest to get there. Not to mention....

[cantab]

[quote name='kiwi1960']The pilot of the C5 said "Watch this..." and they did, for about 5 minutes, they saw nothing....

then the pilot got back to them and said "did you see that?"

The Jet pilots said no...

The answer they got shut them up for the rest of the flight...

"Ladies, I got up, went to the head (toilet) and while there, thought of you having to hold it in.... then, I went to the kitchen, thought about getting a nice cold coke, but poured myself a coffee instead. I ate one of the cookies our engineers wife had made for us and then went back to the cockpit....."[/QUOTE]I've made KSP planes that will do that without MechJeb. Trim for level flight, turn on FAR's wing leveller, and I can walk away and know that I'll come back to the plane flying just fine.

On topic, I recently tried MechJeb launch guidance for testing out some launchers. It will fly a more reproducible ascent than I do, but it's an ascent that really isn't *like* what I do, and for that reason I came away disliking MJ. I may try kOS, that will give me more control, and my generic ascent should be simple to program.

[EditorRUS]

Whether MechJeb is cheating or not depends on the user. I learned most of game mechanics: how to perform gravity turn, what is Oberth effect and how to use it, gravity assist, phase angles, rendezvous and so on. I know how to do almost everything that MJ can and I see no problem with automating most of these things since it does not affect my gameplay anyway. It just removes boredom of performing these things manually. And also I should point out that MJ not always performs its job more effective than if it were done manually.
Still I do everything almost manually using Kerbal Engineer, KAC, Trajectories, Precise Node.
If MJ is used by novice, it's technically cheating.

[GoSlash27]

[quote name='kiwi1960']To end this discussion...[/QUOTE]
kiwi1960,
The discussion was ended 4 months ago until you commented on it. ;)

Best,
-Slashy

[SpaceplaneAddict]

I usually use MJ for readouts, I can't trust KER sometimes. I also let MJ plot and execute in orbit maneuver nodes, but that's it. Other than for the Elcano challenge, I haven't used the autopilot or anything other than the maneuver node executer, 'cause I'm bad at timewarp.

I am for MechJeb.

[neamerjell]

[quote name='SpaceplaneAddict']I usually use MJ for readouts, I can't trust KER sometimes. I also let MJ plot and execute in orbit maneuver nodes, but that's it. Other than for the Elcano challenge, I haven't used the autopilot or anything other than the maneuver node executer, 'cause I'm bad at timewarp.

I am for MechJeb.[/QUOTE]

Same here. I LOVE all the info I can get in a nice little window! I usually make a custom window showing these stats:

Heading
Surface speed
Vertical speed
intake air
intake air needed
----------
Apoapsis
Periapsis
Orbital speed
Distance to target
remaining delta-v
----------
Current biome

Kerbal engineer is great for building, but just doesn't have some of the stats I like to see at a glance.

[Red Iron Crown]

[quote name='neamerjell']Same here. I LOVE all the info I can get in a nice little window! I usually make a custom window showing these stats:

Heading
Surface speed
Vertical speed
intake air
intake air needed
----------
Apoapsis
Periapsis
Orbital speed
Distance to target
remaining delta-v
----------
Current biome

Kerbal engineer is great for building, but just doesn't have some of the stats I like to see at a glance.[/QUOTE]
All those stats can be provided by KER in a custom display or HUD. MJ does have some data it doesn't, but none of those fall into that category.

[EdFred]

I have noticed that KER's suicide burn countdown isn't as accurate at MJ's. Nor is the impact location - especially on bodies with atmosphere.

[JeramyM]

Eh, for me I am more interested in the engineering and building aspects than the flying. I don't want my imagination limited by my poor piloting.

[Dfthu]

I used to play with Mechjeb and a lot of other mods, but I play all stock now

[Vermil]

100% stock.

I'll probably use mods some day, but right now at 1000 hours I'm still concerned about keeping the pioneering mood and to have a defined challenge.
This feeling of having to explore, discover and test everything in order to be reasonably certain of anything, and being limited in what I can do, are very important for my enjoyment of this game.
So I actually treat it, still, more as a game than a toy.

Eventually, I'm sure I'll want rocket parts that are not provided in stock (i.e. very large), and I might also look for a more streamlined mission planning, when I get tired of the adventure of always making it on manual. But that time, that day. I'm very happy that I originally got as far as landing on Minmus without discovering SAS or maneuvering nodes. I treasure those memories of pioneering spirit. But I also couldn't be bothered to do it that way anymore.

The thing is you also learn a lot by going manual.

[kiwi1960]

You guys do know Google is bringing out driverless cars soon, don'tcha???

yep... only their autopilot isn't called MechJeb..... but its still cheating... isn't it?

Go bleat to Google that they shouldn't do this, that its cheating.... go on....

[Mischief]

Kerbal Engineering Redux gives me the information I would expect to have and IMO should be part of KSP at a base level. MechJeb would be un-fun for me; like playing with heating turned off and infinite fuel on. I don't call it 'cheating' because it's a single player game and you're just playing for your own entertainment but I don't find having an automated process do all the challenging stuff for me entertaining.