Top Gun AI - The Official Tournament Thread

[RuBisCO]

Going to need to make points for the new fix 50 cals, the weight on them is all wrong though, they should weigh 0.038 not 0.28, and they definitely do less damage then the Vulcan, even 6 of them does not bring down an opponent as fast as one Vulcan. I would say 1-2 point per 50 cal machine gun same for the ammo can. So say 5x2 50cal guns and 2x1 50cal ammo for a total of 12 points verses 13 points for 1x7 vulcan and 1x4 20mm ammo.

Edited September 3, 2015 by RuBisCO

[GDJ]

That's why I stuck with the .50 cal turrets. The Brownings are neat, and for my vintage planes they are a perfect match, but the weight is all off.

Oh, and I downloaded the winners of the last round and I tweaked the CF-86 to death. It won't be easy to kill. It will make a return as a MK2 model.

I'll post the file once confirmation of the next tournament is set in stone.

If there is a team tournament just use a pair of CF-86's. The combined parts count is under 80.

As of this morning, the point counts for each CF-86 MK2 are the following (based on the previous tournaments point rules):

2x AIM-9 sidewinders - 12 points

2X boxes of .50 cal bullets - 8 points

4X .50 cal turrets (locked to +2 / -2 / 4 degrees total yaw movement) - 16 points

2X chaff - 4 points

2X Flares - 6 points

Total: 46 points.

Edited September 3, 2015 by GDJ

[RuBisCO]

Well I changed the .cfg file for the 50 cal to have the same weight as an M2 Browning. I'll see how well that improves performance with my own "testing".

I was wondering about hosting tournaments. But I need to know things first:

1. Is there a way to get the game camera to only see from the perspective of active ships, not debris?

2. How do I get the camera to view from a point rather then from the ship?

3. Is there a way to get the camera to switch from ship to ship automatically, say on a timer?

Need to test video recording software for linux as well.

[GDJ]

1) Hit V until you get the camera to "Locked", then do the same for both aircraft.

2) I would just hit V until you get to "Auto" then zoom out a bit.

3) No idea on that one. I don't think the game has that provision AFAIK

[GDJ]

So.....I'm 2 points over if I interpret the rules correctly?

FFFFFUUUUUUUUUUU...............

Okay, I'm fine now. I'll get to work now.

Edited September 4, 2015 by GDJ

[CreativeCombat]

It's tournament time, folks!

-ATTENTION!-

All tournament participants have until Friday to update or replace any previously provided submissions. If the updated version is not in compliance with ANY rules, you will have until Friday to resolve it. If any replacement submission does not comply with the rules in their entirety by Friday, a previous submission of yours will be used in its place. Thank you for your participation.

-NOTICE-

DUE TO COMMUNITY CONSENSUS, A SLIGHT RULE CHANGE HAS BEEN MADE

PREVIOUSLY SUBMITTED PLANES HAVE BEEN EDITED

MY SINCEREST APOLOGIES FOR THIS INCONVENIENCE, IT HAS BEEN THE RESULT OF A MISCOMMUNICATION ON MY PART

IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO EDIT AND RESUBMIT YOUR PLANES, PLEASE USE THE EDIT POST FUNCTION TO REPLACE YOUR PREVIOUSLY SUBMITTED DOWNLOAD LINK TO ONE OF YOUR NEW VERSION

ALL PAIRS WILL BE SAVED TO THE COMPUTER HOSTING THE TOURNAMENT AND PUT INTO PLAY ONCE SIXTEEN SUBMISSIONS HAVE BEEN SUCCESSFULLY RECEIVED

THEREFORE, ALL TOURNAMENT PARTICIPANTS HAVE UNTIL SIXTEEN PLANES HAVE BEEN SUBMITTED TO MAKE ANY DESIRED CHANGES TO THEIR DESIGN

-No mods. (Except for BDarmory)

-Fights are 2v2

-Fights are best of 5

-The last flying aircraft wins. If both are destroyed in the sky, the round is considered a draw. If one runs out of fuel and lands/crashes before the other plane does, it is a loss.

-Part Count Cap of 150 (for both planes COMBINED!)

-ALL DESIGNS MUST HAVE A COCKPIT, PROBES ARE NOT ALLOWED.

-REACTION WHEELS ARE ALSO NOT ALLOWED (except for the reaction wheels in the cockpit).

-All designs must be within the point limit, which is stated below.

-All turrets MUST be pointed forward.

-One entry per per participant.

-NO CLIPPING FUEL TANKS, WINGS, OR ENGINES. Structural parts and ammunition, weapons, gear and so forth can be clipped.

-All planes can and will be inspected without warning for rule compliance.

-ALL PLANES ARE REQUIRED TO HAVE AT LEAST ONE RADOME, POINTING FORWARD. THE RADOME ITSELF DESIGNATES WHAT DIRECTION IS 'FORWARD' ON YOUR PLANE.

-Turret rotation values are set to be 0, 0 and 0 for this tournament, so they can not rotate in flight.

-ALL PARTICIPANTS MUST SUBMIT TWO PLANES AS A TEAM.

-TWO PLANES, AS A TEAM, COUNT AS ONE SUBMISSION/ENTRY.

-THE COMBINED POINT COUNT OF BOTH PLANES MAY NOT EXCEED 90 POINTS.

-THE PART COUNT OF BOTH PLANES COMBINED MAY NOT EXCEED 150 PARTS.

-NEITHER PLANE MAY HAVE MORE THAN 60 POINTS OF WEAPONS ON IT.

90 point limit

-NEITHER PLANE MAY HAVE MORE THAN SIXTY POINTS OF WEAPONS ON IT. YOU CAN, AT MOST, HAVE 60 POINTS OF WEAPONS/COUNTERMEASURES ON ONE PLANE AND 30 POINTS OF WEAPONS/COUNTERMEASURES ON THE OTHER. YOU COULD ALSO HAVE 45 ON ONE PLANE, AND 45 ON THE OTHER. YOU CAN NOT HAVE 80 POINTS OF WEAPONS/COUNTERMEASURES ON ONE PLANE, AND ONLY 10 ON THE OTHER. YOUR PLANE CAN HAVE FEWER POINTS OF WEAPONS/COUNTERMEASURES ON IT THAN THE MAXIMUM, BUT THIS IS NOT RECOMMENDED.

-AIM-9 - 6 Points

-AIM-120 - 4 Points

-Chaff - 2 Points

-Flares- 3 Points

-Ammo Can - 4 points (all types)

-.50 cal turret - 4 points

-GAU 8 30mm - 14 points

-M230 - 6 points

-Vulcan Hidden - 7 points

-Vulcan Turret - 8 points

-ECM Jammer - 20 points

-ANY WEAPON NOT ON THIS LIST IS NOT PERMITTED IN THE COMPETITION. IF EITHER OF YOUR PLANES HAVE ANY WEAPON NOT ON THIS LIST, IT WILL BE REMOVED. IF YOUR PLANES TOGETHER EXCEED THE POINT LIMIT, THEY WILL BE DISQUALIFIED.

ADDENDUM: All settings EXCEPT for teams and guard will be used as provided. So, save your planes with preferred AI setups. No changes after the signup is complete. Planes cannot be changed after signup is over. Guard setups will be set to 1/360/3500 before launch.

Also, if anyone is found to be breaking the rules, they will be dropped into the loser's bracket, and it will be recorded as a loss. There will not be rule changes after the first sign-up post, until the tournament is complete.

Sign-up for the tournament allows for 16 planes. To sign up, post your pair of planes on the thread with a Dropbox or Mediafire link to the craft file. Put the word "AWIMBAWE" somewhere in your post so I can CTRL-F to find it. Only sign-ups posted after/below this post will be entered in the tournament. If you have 'signed up' to this tournament before/behind this post, do not delete your post as this post's position at the top of page 74 is vital.

During tournament fights, planes will start approximately 100m apart.

Mid Air Collisions in which both planes are rendered unable to fly are considered a draw.

After 16 pairs of planes have entered, you may still sign up for the final round.

The final round will occur after all 16 pairs of planes, save one, have been eliminated. Any pairs submitted after the sign-up will be put in a battle, individually, against the winning planes. Any PLANE which survives the battle will be placed in a FFA against all other surviving planes, the winner of which will be deemed the secondary tournament champion.

ON THE NAMING OF PLANES.

WHEN PROVIDING YOUR SUBMISSION, NAME YOUR PLANES IN THIS FORMAT. DO NOT INCLUDE QUOTATION MARKS:

"(Your forum name here) - 1 - (Name of the plane here)" and "(Your forum name here - 2 - (Name of the plane here)".

For example, my planes IN-GAME NAMES would be "CreativeCombat - 1 - Awesomeplaneofmurder" and "CreativeCombat - 2 - Smallerplaneofmurder". Without quotation marks.

The plane which has the higher point number of weapons on it is to be named 1, and the one with the lesser number of weapons on it is to be named 2. If your planes both have equal points worth of weapons/countermeasures, number them in whichever order you prefer. This naming scheme is to make tournament organization easier to understand.

EDIT: Plane AI must be configured such that the minimum altitude is between 600m and 1000m, and the default altitude is 1000m to 2000m. Planes which do not abide by this will be edited to do so.

Edited September 9, 2015 by CreativeCombat

[GDJ]

What will be the preset minimum/maximum altitude settings for this tournament? Might as well make all the planes fly at the same height.

[CreativeCombat]

What will be the preset minimum/maximum altitude settings for this tournament? Might as well make all the planes fly at the same height.

That is up to the individual submitting the plane to decide. However, a plane's minimum altitude may not exceed 1000. It will be lowered to 1000 if it does exceed it.

Edited September 4, 2015 by CreativeCombat

[GDJ]

So....say 600 minimum / 2000 maximum?

My point is that if the altitudes are all set nilly-willy, some matches will be over in a few seconds, and some will never end because one plane will probably shoot up past 8,000m and they will be out of range from each other. I've had it happen on my computer with matches.

IMHO 150m is too low. I've seen alot of planes try to pull up and smack the ground. Also planes trying to do a hard maneuver that close to the ground will probably end up stalling and crashing. 600m is, again, IMHO, the minimum altitude for a buffer from ground smacking, allows the planes to get up to speed, and matches will be alot more even and entertaining.

2000m is a good ballpark for a upper ceiling because it's low enough for wings to work well, and it prevents planes from over accelerating and going stratosphere.

[CreativeCombat]

So....say 600 minimum / 2000 maximum?

My point is that if the altitudes are all set nilly-willy, some matches will be over in a few seconds, and some will never end because one plane will probably shoot up past 8,000m and they will be out of range from each other. I've had it happen on my computer with matches.

IMHO 150m is too low. I've seen alot of planes try to pull up and smack the ground. Also planes trying to do a hard maneuver that close to the ground will probably end up stalling and crashing. 600m is, again, IMHO, the minimum altitude for a buffer from ground smacking, allows the planes to get up to speed, and matches will be alot more even and entertaining.

2000m is a good ballpark for a upper ceiling because it's low enough for wings to work well, and it prevents planes from over accelerating and going stratosphere.

Tournament post has been edited according to your advice.

Edited September 4, 2015 by CreativeCombat

[RuBisCO]

CreativeCombat,

I really think you should start a new thread for this tournament as opposed to the single plane "Top Gun AI"

I'll put up the latest versions of my Xeric and Xylidine.

[Mr_Hubris]

I have a question about these two quoted pieces of the rules:

1: "-ALL PLANES ARE REQUIRED TO HAVE AT LEAST ONE RADOME, POINTING FORWARD. THE RADOME ITSELF DESIGNATES WHAT DIRECTION IS 'FORWARD' ON YOUR PLANE."

Is the TWS locking radar included in this rule as a "radome" or no?

2:-REACTION WHEELS ARE ALSO NOT ALLOWED (except for the reaction wheels in the cockpit)."Does this mean i can use cockpits as reaction wheels? my question includes probes

please do get back to me on this as i need to know these two pieces of information before I submit my two crafts.

cheers

EDIT: Almost forgot to mention, am I aloud to submit my two crafts vie KerbalX?

also, if my craft is basically a box, am I aloud to put non-clipping control surfaces inside of it or is that not aloud?

as well, how much does ammo cost for machine guns (in points) or is it not tallied p in the points

Edited September 4, 2015 by Mr_Hubris

[CreativeCombat]

CreativeCombat,

I really think you should start a new thread for this tournament as opposed to the single plane "Top Gun AI"

I'll put up the latest versions of my Xeric and Xylidine.

I'm not starting a new thread.

I have a question about these two quoted pieces of the rules:

1: "-ALL PLANES ARE REQUIRED TO HAVE AT LEAST ONE RADOME, POINTING FORWARD. THE RADOME ITSELF DESIGNATES WHAT DIRECTION IS 'FORWARD' ON YOUR PLANE."

Is the TWS locking radar included in this rule as a "radome" or no?

2:-REACTION WHEELS ARE ALSO NOT ALLOWED (except for the reaction wheels in the cockpit)."Does this mean i can use cockpits as reaction wheels? my question includes probes

please do get back to me on this as i need to know these two pieces of information before I submit my two crafts.

cheers

EDIT: Almost forgot to mention, am I aloud to submit my two crafts vie KerbalX?

also, if my craft is basically a box, am I aloud to put non-clipping control surfaces inside of it or is that not aloud?

as well, how much does ammo cost for machine guns (in points) or is it not tallied p in the points

1. The TWS locking radar does not count as a radome. Only the AN/APG-63 Inline Radome and AN/APG-63 Radomes count as radomes. You can, however, attach the TWS Locking Radar if you so desire as long as your craft has at least one forward facing radome.

2. You can use cockpits as reaction wheels, or to ensure the craft survives if one of the cockpits is destroyed. You can not use probes as reaction wheels, probe cores can not be attached to your plane in any way for any reason on pain of disqualification.

3. You're welcome to submit your craft through KerbalX, however, if you're submitting it by means other than Dropbox or Mediafire, your craft may not be accepted if I can not figure out how to download the file. I'm sure I can figure out KerbalX though.

4. Ammunition is tallied in the points under "Ammo Can", it's four points.

[Mr_Hubris]

AWIMBAWE

Okay I'm locked in, please read the description to my cx-11 hubris... and play nice with the rules

http://kerbalx.com/crafts/4988/edit

http://kerbalx.com/crafts/5007/edit

please do record this! i wanna see how hard i fail

- - - Updated - - -

I know its early to be asking, but is anyone planning on running a 1 craft top gun ai tourney after this top wing one? i have one hell of a design... just need the rules to be 155 part limit

[dangerouspeople1]

So...No FAR?

[Zixor]

A few questions for you, Creative:

1. Is there a deadline for submissions?
   
2. Just to be clear, must all turrets have 0 range of motion?
   
3. Can you pin down a version of BD armory you will be using (currently v0.9.9.1)? Legacy targeting on/off?
   
4. I may want to slave one of my planes to track its wingman's target, but I belive this can only be setup when both planes are in-flight. Can I give you instructions to set this up? (I know there is some kind of data link utility in BD that does something like this, not sure exactly how it works, will test later.)
   

[dangerouspeople1]

AWIMBAWE

First plane: Heatwave 2-b (I'm running out of names...)

2x GAU-8 28pt

2x ammo can 8pt

2x chaff 4pt

2x flare 6pt

total = 46pt

Second plane: Heatwave 2-a (I know the order is kind of weird, ignore it)

2x Vulcan Hidden 14pt

2x chaff 4pt

2x flare 6pt

2x ammo can 8pt

3x AIM 120 12pt

total= 44pt

Total pt for both planes= 90pt

Download link: https://www./?ba893z4gmfdjwdo (The are both in it)

[GDJ]

AWIMBAWE

Okay, change of plans for the planes:

First and second planes are the same, but new design.

Typhoon MK1

2X AIM9 - 12 points

1X AIM120 - 4 points

3X .50 cal turrets - 12 points

1X .50 cal ammunition - 4 points

4X Chaff - 8 points

1X Flare - 3 points

Total: 43 points per plane

Part count per plane: 58

Download links:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7gts9nx118hsc4s/GDJ-Typhoon%20MK1-1.craft?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2e2p95m9dfk78ep/GDJ-Typhoon%20MK1-2.craft?dl=0

Edited September 5, 2015 by GDJ

[colmo]

I recommend changing the conditions for draws. Who crashes first is stupid and arbitrary. I originally counted a plane dead for these purposes (though it can still shoot!) if it was no longer under powered, controlled flight. Thus, a mid air collision of the last two planes is rightly a draw, not a result because the wreckage of one plane hit the VAB earlier than the other which hit the ground.

Top Gun AI was not originally a 1v1 format, it was 2v2. Allowing dissimilar planes is a nice extension of that, though the requirement of a radome misses the opportunity of a slow, radome equipped spotter scout and a radomeless lead strike plane. Now radomes have had their mass reduced, it likely doesn't matter, always worth having.

I'm presuming the start positions of 100m apart means back to back launches? This is preferable to parallel launches, which make for farcical mismatches.

[CreativeCombat]

Thank you very much to everyone submitting! You make this tournament possible.

A few questions for you, Creative:

1. Is there a deadline for submissions?
   
2. Just to be clear, must all turrets have 0 range of motion?
   
3. Can you pin down a version of BD armory you will be using (currently v0.9.9.1)? Legacy targeting on/off?
   
4. I may want to slave one of my planes to track its wingman's target, but I belive this can only be setup when both planes are in-flight. Can I give you instructions to set this up? (I know there is some kind of data link utility in BD that does something like this, not sure exactly how it works, will test later.)
   

1. Submissions for the tournament will no longer be accepted once sixteen submissions have been posted. However, you can still submit planes for the final which will occur once tournament planes but one have been eliminated, as per the final rules described on the second to last line of the ADDENDUM section.

2. Turrets rotation values should be set to 0/0/0 such that they can not rotate. I apologize for previous confusion.

3. I will use the latest version of BDArmory and update it if a new version is released while the tournament is in progress, legacy targeting will be turned off for this tournament.

4. If you want me to do anything to the plane, such as turning the RCS on or slaving the turrets before it launches, then describe as much in your submission and I will do so.

I should have mentioned this in the tournament rules but it slipped my mind. All submitted planes should have "Activate AI" bound to the 0 action group. To launch the planes, I will put them in position, activate and adjust guard mode, set teams, press space until all stages have been fired, and then I will press the 0 key, bracket to the next plane, press 0 and repeat until all planes have launched. I will edit the planes already submitted to be in compliance with this, as it is my fault for not posting it in the original tournament rules.

I recommend changing the conditions for draws. Who crashes first is stupid and arbitrary. I originally counted a plane dead for these purposes (though it can still shoot!) if it was no longer under powered, controlled flight. Thus, a mid air collision of the last two planes is rightly a draw, not a result because the wreckage of one plane hit the VAB earlier than the other which hit the ground.

Top Gun AI was not originally a 1v1 format, it was 2v2. Allowing dissimilar planes is a nice extension of that, though the requirement of a radome misses the opportunity of a slow, radome equipped spotter scout and a radomeless lead strike plane. Now radomes have had their mass reduced, it likely doesn't matter, always worth having.

I'm presuming the start positions of 100m apart means back to back launches? This is preferable to parallel launches, which make for farcical mismatches.

The rules are solidified, as sign-ups have already begun. There will be no rule changes from this point forward. If I failed to mention something, such as the 0 key launch function, I will personally edit the planes myself to be in compliance with the rule I failed to mention. As a result, your suggestions regarding the rules for draws will be disregarded for THIS tournament. I will take them into consideration for the next tournament I run. The pairs will start back to back, with planes of the same team side to side. So team A's first plane will have team A's second plane to its right, and team B's second and first planes behind it.

- - - Updated - - -

AWIMBAWE

Okay I'm locked in, please read the description to my cx-11 hubris... and play nice with the rules

http://kerbalx.com/crafts/4988/edit

http://kerbalx.com/crafts/5007/edit

please do record this! i wanna see how hard i fail

- - - Updated - - -

I know its early to be asking, but is anyone planning on running a 1 craft top gun ai tourney after this top wing one? i have one hell of a design... just need the rules to be 155 part limit

When I clicked the link to your craft files, I received this error.

http://imgur.com/zZRmlgV

I'm not familiar with KerbalX, but I think you set the permissions for who can access the craft incorrectly. I can not receive your submission until you resolve this. If there is a problem on my end which prevents me from receiving the file, inform me as to what it is and I will resolve it.

Edited September 5, 2015 by CreativeCombat

[GDJ]

Hold off on grabbing my planes. Turrets are locked to zero currently. If everybody is unlocking their turrets, I am as well.

[Alphasus]

Hold off on grabbing my planes. Turrets are locked to zero currently. If everybody is unlocking their turrets, I am as well.

[colmo]

What! repeat this? Unlocked turrets are allowed? If so, this is going to be a farce.

Quite. The weapon values being used were established for turrets fixed forward. For free rotation, they're completely wrong.

[CreativeCombat]

Quite. The weapon values being used were established for turrets fixed forward. For free rotation, they're completely wrong.

[GDJ]

Basically it allows the guns to be more powerful than the missiles. With unlocked turrets your enemy can be behind you and you'd be able to kill them. Totally fake in a Top Gun fighter plane, but on a bomber it would be fine.

IIRC, we agreed on a +2 / -2 / 4 degrees total yaw allowable movement on the rotatable turrets. This compensated for the plane's bouncing and vibration but they still required decent aiming on the plane's part.

In my personal experience any movement beyond 5 degrees in any direction. and you might as well toss the missiles away.