A Thread for Writers to talk about Writing

[NorthernDevo]

On ‎2016‎-‎03‎-‎09 at 0:01 PM, Spaceception said:

Tips pls?

 

 

Hello Spaceception; nice to meet you. I hope you don't mind me jumping in here, I've got a couple of thoughts on The Void I'd like to share.

First of all, I like the basic idea. Impending Armageddon has never been my thing in S-F  but if you can make it work then great! The problem with Armageddon is, in my opinion (and I stress this is just my own opinion) it is an overwhelmingly huge subject, both in scale and emotional impact (we're talking about the extermination of the Earth and its billions of inhabitants here) and as such the story itself needs to be big enough to cover it. So - just my opinion again - if you're prepared to write a story that big, you need to be able to throw the brakes off the creative process and cut loose.

I like the writing approach: simple, no-nonsense and joins the action in a very 'people are normal' way (now there's a useless description) that reminds me of Jack McDevitt. I would personally be interested in seeing more quick character development, which would allow me to get a better handle on the action. For instance:

Who's this Rob guy anyway?

We know he's in charge of something astronomical; we know he's married to Mary. He works at an observatory. He has a subordinate named Jack and the head of the observatory is Amy Summers.

Beyond that, not much. What's his position? Authority? Why is he going to see The President and not Amy? What is her qualifications? It's a good idea to establish the basic facts early. There's no need to extemporize, as in "Robert Baker, Chief Astronomer of the Palomar Research Observatory picked up the phone" or anything so clunky, but you can slide it in there easily. For instance: "Robert was nearing the observatory now, and a few minutes later, he was there. His Jaguar peeled into the parking lot without stopping; the guard hastily raising the gate for him. Being Chief Astronomer had its privileges. He pulled into the parking lot, got out of his car, and walked towards the building..."  ...Or something. Or at least something better than that poor example.

One other point that jumped out at me: While being concerned with the great big things - like the Earth blowing up - be very careful about the small things. I've found that it's the small details which trip a story up faster than the big ones. For example: I can accept a black hole coming in to pot Earth into the corner pocket in a few decades; what I can't accept is a person in a subordinate position - Robert - keeping huge information out of the hands of his boss - Amy - before he himself saw it. After all, she's in charge; why did Jack not go to her? Why would a person respected enough to gain instant access to the President of the United States have to stand around and chat about world-shattering events with a security guard while waiting for admittance? What was he doing on that ten-hour flight?

Edit: One other thing I'd mention; but this is something strictly of preference: Someone Smart finds Something Bad, and goes and tells The President. I would personally say "avoid clichés". Sure, if a black hole was coming in to pot Earth into the corner pocket at some point in the future, Someone Smart would see it and The President would find out, but do you need to actually show it? If so then great - try (remember, this is just my opinion) to do so in a way that wasn't done in a hundred Imminent Armageddon stories before. Or - and this is a very viable possibility depending on writing style - you could follow the cliché and follow it good and hard, making it your own.

Overall, I think it's a great idea and a great start. The writing's good and you've got the basics of a working frame to hang the story on. If I wuz you, I'd look at what you've offered as a précis; use it as an initial overview to build upon.

Edited April 4, 2016 by NorthernDevo
Speling and a new thought.

[Spaceception]

Just now, NorthernDevo said:

Hello Spaceception; nice to meet you. I hope you don't mind me jumping in here, I've got a couple of thoughts on The Void I'd like to share.

First of all, I like the basic idea. Impending Armageddon has never been my thing in S-F  but if you can make it work then great! The problem with Armageddon is, in my opinion (and I stress this is just my own opinion) it is an overwhelmingly huge subject, both in scale and emotional impact (we're talking about the extermination of the Earth and its billions of inhabitants here) and as such the story itself needs to be big enough to cover it. So - just my opinion again - if you're prepared to write a story that big, you need to be able to throw the brakes off the creative process and cut loose.

I like the writing approach: simple, no-nonsense and joins the action in a very 'people are normal' way (now there's a useless description) that reminds me of Jack McDevitt. I would personally be interested in seeing more quick character development, which would allow me to get a better handle on the action. For instance:

Who's this Rob guy anyway?

We know he's in charge of something astronomical; we know he's married to Mary. He works at an observatory. He has a subordinate named Jack and the head of the observatory is Amy Summers.

Beyond that, not much. What's his position? Authority? Why is he going to see The President and not Amy? What is her qualifications? It's a good idea to establish the basic facts early. There's no need to extemporize, as in "Robert Baker, Chief Astronomer of the Palomar Research Observatory picked up the phone" or anything so clunky, but you can slide it in there easily. For instance: "Robert was nearing the observatory now, and a few minutes later, he was there. His Jaguar peeled into the parking lot without stopping; the guard hastily raising the gate for him. Being Chief Astronomer had its privileges. He pulled into the parking lot, got out of his car, and walked towards the building..."  ...Or something. Or at least something better than that poor example.

One other point that jumped out at me: While being concerned with the great big things - like the Earth blowing up - be very careful about the small things. I've found that it's the small details which trip a story up faster than the big ones. For example: I can accept a black hole coming in to pot Earth into the corner pocket in a few decades; what I can't accept is a person in a subordinate position - Robert - keeping huge information out of the hands of his boss - Amy - before he himself saw it. After all, she's in charge; why did Jack not go to her? Why would a person respected enough to gain instant access to the President of the United States have to stand around and chat about world-shattering events with a security guard while waiting for admittance? What was he doing on that ten-hour flight?

Edit: One other thing I'd mention; but this is something strictly of preference: Someone Smart finds Something Bad, and goes and tells The President. I would personally say "avoid clichés". Sure, if a black hole was coming in to pot Earth into the corner pocket at some point in the future, Someone Smart would see it and The President would find out, but do you need to actually show it? If so then great - try (remember, this is just my opinion) to do so in a way that wasn't done in a hundred Imminent Armageddon stories before. Or - and this is a very viable possibility depending on writing style - you could follow the cliché and follow it good and hard, making it your own.

Overall, I think it's a great idea and a great start. The writing's good and you've got the basics of a working frame to hang the story on. If I wuz you, I'd look at what you've offered as a précis; use it as an initial overview to build upon.

Thank you so much for the tips, I'll definitely add them to the final story

[NorthernDevo]

Hope I helped in a small way.  

 

[Mister Dilsby]

Here's some "behind the scenes" comic technique: who needs a "green screen" when you've got (1) Minmus, (2) Hyperedit, and (3) a text editor to fool Texture Replacer into thinking the solar system is filled with breathable air?  

Spoiler

 

[Mister Dilsby]

On 4/1/2016 at 5:15 PM, SaturnianBlue said:

@KuzzterSo for the newest episode, i've tried to cut down on the dialogue length, but at the same time I may have made it too long. I fear that the whole portal thing might be too weird or confusing for readers. Lastly, I wonder if there's something fundamental that's missing from the story that plenty of great stories have, and having it would help my story along.

The dialogue is a lot cleaner, yes. As to the portal thing--isn't this the second or third big concept you've thrown into the story? I'm not saying take it out. I'm not saying do something different. What I'm saying is that there is not a plot point, character, image or twist that anyone can add to make a story "great". I think you have to be consistent and build.

I worry that trying to give you any more specific advice will have you making more changes in pursuit of that "fundamental" you think you're missing that will will turn the magic switch from "not great" to "great". You don't need to chase my approval or anyone else's, and doing so may make the story too inconsistent to build readership. Just tell your story and try to be patient in your development as a writer.  

[KSK]

1 hour ago, Kuzzter said:

You don't need to chase my approval or anyone else's, and doing so may make the story too inconsistent to build readership. Just tell your story and try to be patient in your development as a writer.  

Agreed. I'm not sure there is any one 'fundamental' that makes a great story. Some stories you remember for the dialogue and characterisation, even if the plot is a bit hackneyed. Some stories just blow your mind with dizzying concepts but the dialogue is workmanlike at best. Some stories have well observed characters, others are poignant slices of life that you can relate to, others have breathtaking descriptions (it was said that Tolkien, if nothing else, could write a beautiful mountain). Some are epic in scope, others are short and to the point. 

How many stories have you read that started off as a bit of a slow-burner but turned out to be something special?

I can only speak from limited experience but I don't think there is a substitute for just knocking the words out. Or, for a graphic novel, cranking out the pages.

“Write a thousand words a day and in three years you'll be a writer!”
- Bradbury

They won't all be sparkling pearls of wisdom (at least not to start with) but that's fine:

"Dans ses écrits, un sage Italien dit que le mieux est l'ennemi du bien."
(In his writings, a wise Italian says that the best is the enemy of good.)
- Voltaire

In other words, spend too long trying to get everything absolutely perfect and you might never get anything done at all. 

To illustrate that with a more personal example, I dressed up the first two parts of my KSP fic as ebooks for a friend of mine. I'd mentioned this story I was working on a couple of times and he's a good enough mate that he asked to have a look at it. Anyhow, for giggles, I added a short foreword to the first part. My friend's first comment? There's a noticeable improvement in writing style between the foreword and the rest of the first book.

No real secret to that, other than nigh on three years practice and bashing out somewhere around 150,000 words in the interim. It's not all been easy mind you, and that's with the benefit of an infinite canvas that I can sprawl my story all over. If I want to put a bunch of kerbals in orbit around the Mün, all I need is a couple of sentences and it's done! Better yet they got there in a magical morphing spacecraft that the reader can mould to suit him or herself. I don't have to worry about the realties and limitations of actually building that spacecraft. I don't have to concern myself with composing screenshots, page layouts, working with a limited amount of dialogue and, most of all, the discipline of telling a complex story in this format. 

You do.

Writing is tough enough by itself. Writing a graphic novel - I tip my hat to everyone on the forum who engages in such a crazy (but wonderful) pursuit! In the end, I can do no better than to paraphrase Douglas Adams:

"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy has this to say on the topic of writing. Go to it, it says, and good luck!"

Edited April 10, 2016 by KSK

[0111narwhalz]

So, I figured I'd procrastinate a bit longer on Kerbal Future and write a quick short story.
I present to you: The Change.

Any feedback is greatly appreciated. 

[Butterbar]

I believe that "From Humble Beginnings" is in serious need of character development.  I've brought up some bits and pieces of a backstory (Jebediah is a combat pilot, Wernher is a captured scientist, Kirrim is a intelligence officer, .etc), but it needs to be connected more.  Does anyone know how to achieve this in a newspaper-style AAR?

[KSK]

3 hours ago, Butterbar said:

I believe that "From Humble Beginnings" is in serious need of character development.  I've brought up some bits and pieces of a backstory (Jebediah is a combat pilot, Wernher is a captured scientist, Kirrim is a intelligence officer, .etc), but it needs to be connected more.  Does anyone know how to achieve this in a newspaper-style AAR?

Couple of ideas off the top of my head. 

Revealing the connections (if any) between those three characters could drive quite a lot of your story, so what the connections are is up to you - don't want to put words in your mouth there. How you reveal the connections is a different matter but for some examples: 

• Investigative journalist digs up Wernher's tragic/murky/heroic past as scientist for the other side.
• Jeb gives series of personal interviews after shooting to fame as a kerbonaut.
• Gossip magazine makes scandalous allegations about Jeb, which are refuted in your more serious newspaper.
• Whistleblower leaks information about one of Kirrim's colleagues, which eventually leads to details about Kirrim (and whatever backstory you plan for him) being published too.
• Wernher does von-Braun style articles, on the future of spaceflight,for a magazine or newspaper.
• Wernher ghostwrites a regular column for whatever your version of Popular Mechanics is in-story.
• One of the ground crew at the KSC writes a diary which becomes the latest publishing sensation, appearing in respectable newspapers across Kerbin.

I'm sure there are plenty more you could think of.  Almost all of the above could be serialised if need be to suit your AAR.

Edit. As for the character development - it doesn't need to be all about the backstory, although that's a great start. Show us snippets of your characters lives away from KSC. Do they have families? Hobbies? Pet hates? Whatever it is, if not's something that you'd expect the character in question to do, or be interested in, then so much the better.

Maybe Jeb sneaks away from KSC every second Munday for reasons unknown. After much unwarranted speculation that he's a turncoat and a spy, it turns out he just has a secret taste for musical theatre and is sneaking away for rehearsals. The story arc finishes with a review of the breakthrough performance by Jeb's amateur dramatics group.  

Edited April 13, 2016 by KSK

[Mister Dilsby]

5 hours ago, KSK said:

Edit. As for the character development - it doesn't need to be all about the backstory, although that's a great start. 

To add: know the backstory, and let it come through in your story--but don't tell the backstory instead of the story story. Yes, it can seem like a shame to construct a complete biography and history of each character and then not tell everyone every single detail. But you must resist that urge  This is the sort of thing we mean when we throw around terms like "show don't tell". 

So, your question "how do I achieve this in a newspaper style AAR?" @KSK has lots of good suggestions. I think you'd do well to occasionally throw in a piece of direct and literal backstory--e.g. a newspaper article about a character's past. But I encourage you to focus on the present. For example, let Jeb's history as a combat pilot come through in the story of his latest civilian spaceflight mission. How does he approach the job differently than someone who wasn't in combat? How does he interact with teammates? If you do your job right, readers should be able to say "that guy must have been a combat pilot" without you ever saying "Jeb used to be a combat pilot".

[Endersmens]

How much is too much for a single chapter to avoid the fan fic becoming a novel?  

I'm writing for before they were orange again, and I don't know how long to make the next chapter.  

[Just Jim]

12 minutes ago, Endersmens said:

How much is too much for a single chapter to avoid the fan fic becoming a novel?  
I'm writing for before they were orange again, and I don't know how long to make the next chapter.  

I'm struggling with this same issue.  My chapters are getting longer and longer, and I worry they may eventually get too long. 

But as a general rule, I try not to choose a specific length, but rather find a good spot in the storyline to end, and let that determine the length of a chapter.  I especially like ending chapters on cliffhangers, if possible.  it may seem a little mean, but I think the readers like it that way.  It gives them a reason to keep coming back for more.

[Ehco Corrallo]

47 minutes ago, Endersmens said:

How much is too much for a single chapter to avoid the fan fic becoming a novel?  

I'm writing for before they were orange again, and I don't know how long to make the next chapter.  

Chapters in novels aren't always that long. Sometimes they're only a few pages. Chapter length isn't really indicative of a particular composition; ultimately, the 'distance' between "once upon a time..." and "the end" is the deciding factor. 

With that said, about a thousand words per chapter (4 pages) is a good number. 

[KSK]

2 hours ago, Endersmens said:

How much is too much for a single chapter to avoid the fan fic becoming a novel?  

I'm writing for before they were orange again, and I don't know how long to make the next chapter.  

Oof - I jumped that particular shark a looong time ago.

With that said, I tend to agree with Jim, especially as I'm running multiple plotlines in parallel in my fic. I can usually find a good place to stop with one of them, maybe swap over onto another for a section or two, just to give the reader a sense that events are happening in parallel and then stop. My chapters tend to end up somewhere between 3,500 and 5,000 words apiece, so quite a bit longer than Ehco's rule of thumb. Apparently an average paperback page length is about 350-400 words depending on typesetting, so that makes my chapters anywhere from 9 to 14 pages long.

 

[Ehco Corrallo]

9 minutes ago, KSK said:

Oof - I jumped that particular shark a looong time ago.

With that said, I tend to agree with Jim, especially as I'm running multiple plotlines in parallel in my fic. I can usually find a good place to stop with one of them, maybe swap over onto another for a section or two, just to give the reader a sense that events are happening in parallel and then stop. My chapters tend to end up somewhere between 3,500 and 5,000 words apiece, so quite a bit longer than Ehco's rule of thumb. 

I actually don't have a rule of thumb. Sometimes my chapters are as short as 300 words, sometimes they're a lot longer. The standard chapter length in the novel I'm working on now is about 10,000 words. But in another project, it ranges from 1,000 to 4,500.

1,000 is a day's work, approximately, that's why I recommended it.

 In general, it's best to choose a length that works for the particular composition. I have a lot going on in my novel, for instance, so I change points of view, and jump forward in time quite frequently; the variation allows for longer chapters. If you're working from a single point of view, you might want to make things shorter, barring the whims of plot. 

[Mister Dilsby]

All correct regarding word length for a novel. My advice would be to err on the short side when publishing serially in your own comments section, online attention span being what it is  This is why I tend to publish one scene at a time rather than a full chapter. 

So, what's a scene? A single, continuous sequence in the story. What's a chapter? At least one scene, but usually two or more, that when put together comprise a complete-ish chunk of plot and character development. An over-simplified but possibly fair test: as you're telling the story and stringing scenes together, what's the first moment where you could naturally "go to commercial"? You should be leaving the viewer/reader satisfied that something meaty and interesting has happened, give them something to ponder as they pause to go to the fridge, and prepare them for the next chunk when they sit back on the couch with fresh snacks.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Kuzzter

[Gojira1000]

Chapters are a bit like short stories in that you need to end them as soon as you sit back, take a deep breath and think "what next?"

[0111narwhalz]

Just published a new chapter of Kerbal Future. I'd like some feedback on that meeting scene; it's kinda stiff.

[0111narwhalz]

So I posted another chapter of Warped Stars, and I'm sure you already know the question I'm about to ask:
Could I have some feedback?

[Andem]

So I'm planning a mission report, mostly technical stuff, but supplemented with crew logs, newspaper clippings, etc. Any suggestions/thoughts/tips?

[Ehco Corrallo]

10 hours ago, Andem said:

So I'm planning a mission report, mostly technical stuff, but supplemented with crew logs, newspaper clippings, etc. Any suggestions/thoughts/tips?

Remember that journalists are infatuated with atrociously connotative adjectives, and astronauts tend to be glib and brevetic, especially in the face of danger. "Houston, we've had a problem," is something someone actually said when their spaceship broke. On the way to the Moon. In space. Lunatics.

Lunatics? The Moon? Geddit? Anyway...I digress (massivly). 

Satire is fun, too. 

On a seperate note: The definition of 'glib' is possibly the greatest thing ever. 

Edited April 15, 2016 by Ehco Corrallo
Fixed some tenses. Changed some verbiage.

[KSK]

1 hour ago, Ehco Corrallo said:

Remember that journalists are infatuated with atrociously connotative adjectives, and astronauts tend to be glib and brevetic, even in the face of danger. "Houston, we've had a problem," is something someone actually said when their spaceship broke. On the way to the Moon. In space. Lunatics.

Lunatics? The Moon? Geddit? Anyway...I digress (massivly). 

Satire is fun, too. 

On a seperate note: The definition of 'glib' is possibly the greatest thing ever. 

I'm not sure I completely agree with that. Read the mission journals for Apollo 10 sometime, especially the part where Stafford and Cernan are heading down to the Moon. Likewise for Conrad and Bean on Apollo 12. Or, on the other side of the Cold War, Gagarin's radio reports for Vostok 1. I would argue that the brevity only really kicked in when there was danger or when something needed doing urgently - both of which scenarios were hardly uncommon in early spaceflight (or I guess, modern day spaceflight).

Besides - that's astronauts. No reason why kerbonauts should be the same.

That's a good point about journalistic style vs astronaut style though. Lots of scope here for presenting the same mission through three different lenses:  the relatively dry, technical stuff over the air-to-ground loop, the sensationalist newspaper reporting, and the personal commentary written up in one of the kerbonaut's personal logs.

 

[Tw1]

On 13/04/2016 at 1:56 AM, Just Jim said:

I'm struggling with this same issue.  My chapters are getting longer and longer, and I worry they may eventually get too long. 

I know that feel bro.

Happened to me with Oceans of Eve, seems to be happening with some parts of Bill vs Bill as well. It doesn't help that I sometimes strugle to clear time for writing, and sometimes struggle to focus when reading long sections. 

In From a Childhood Dream, I've tried experimenting a bit with shorter, punchier story telling. Much of the background detail is only shown through pictures,  and where a showing a moment in full doesn't add to the emotional impact, I've tried to just imply key points. 

Like the telephone conversation in the last bit - I didn't think it nessesary to show three versions of the same response, and thought I could get a sense of suspense doing it the way I did.

Not entirely certain though, and may go back and make small edits. The magic of internet publication.

I did wonder if it could be too brief- people may not pick up on details. And long things do seem to get well responded to here, (as long as they're well written.) 

Edited April 15, 2016 by Tw1

[Sharkman Briton]

So I have an idea for a short comic that's basically a kerbal version of 'Space Oddity' (the song). I've been having trouble trying to find a good kerbally name to replace 'tom' with. All the names short enough to fit the bill are human names. So far my best candidate is Edbur Kerman but that still doesn't sound right. Any ideas?

(@Kuzzter what can your minmus green screen thing be used for? I'm guessing for a sort of 'oh poop ive been sucked out the airlock' thing. Might have been used in your comic but I haven't caught up yet, but this thread is about writing and not Kuzzter.)

[Mister Dilsby]

1 hour ago, Sharkman Briton said:

(@Kuzzter what can your minmus green screen thing be used for? I'm guessing for a sort of 'oh poop ive been sucked out the airlock' thing. Might have been used in your comic but I haven't caught up yet, but this thread is about writing and not Kuzzter.)

It's a storytelling technique, so I think I can answer it here. I use the Minmus greenscreen for shots of crew floating around in places on the ship that are considered pressurized, but aren't actually places where you can do an EVA. Process is to take the greenscreen shot, remove the background with a drawing tool, then paste the crew wherever they need to be.

Example:
 

Spoiler

 

This...

plus this...

...equals this.

 

 

Edited April 15, 2016 by Kuzzter