A Thread for Writers to talk about Writing

[Just Jim]

1 hour ago, steuben said:

nanowrimo 

???

[0111narwhalz]

Just now, Just Jim said:

???

National Novel Writing Month

[Just Jim]

7 minutes ago, 0111narwhalz said:

National Novel Writing Month

OK, I just looked that one up, and wow!!!  Are they serious? I mean, I'm impressed, but I also realize more than most just how much work they're talking about!

I tip my hat to anyone that's able to complete it.

Edited April 25, 2017 by Just Jim

[Guest]

20 hours ago, Spaceception said:

I have the first 250 words of my book (It'll probably get more edits though) what do you guys think? Any tips to improve it? 

Beginning with action is good. BUT--even more so than other kinds of writing, action has to be clear and completely unambiguous. Yes, if I think about it I can discern that when you say "rioters lit the clothes of people from Earth and Mars on fire from their lack of help" you probably mean that the people from Earth and Mars, and not their clothes, are to be blamed for lack of help... that this must have been going on for a while, or that Saturnian rioters are really efficient, for those people to be naked...that Raven did not literally become a child again and that her father is not present, etc. But the point is, if I have to stop and think to sort that out, the action stops while I do so  

So, as others have said, be efficient. For action, be brutally efficient. If you find you can't fit in your early exposition (who are these guys and why are they fighting) without slowing things down, then save the exposition for a pause. Sometimes it helps to imagine the scene as it would play in a movie. The lights go up, and there's a fight. People are getting beaten and stripped and there's fire. This is exciting! You don't care why they're fighting yet because there are naked people on fire! But once that shock wears off, you'll have questions. A good writer knows the correct time to answer those questions. It could be now, it could be later--and sometimes, very rarely, the correct answer is never.  

Edited April 25, 2017 by Kuzzter

[Spaceception]

2 minutes ago, Kuzzter said:

Beginning with action is good. BUT--even more so that other kinds of writing, action has to clear and completely unambiguous. Yes, if I think about it I can discern that when you say "rioters lit the clothes of people from Earth and Mars on fire from their lack of help" you probably mean that the people from Earth and Mars, and not their clothes, are to be blamed for lack of help... that this must have been going on for a while, or that Saturnian rioters are really efficient, for those people to be naked...that Raven did not literally become a child again and that her father is not present, etc. But the point is, if I have to stop and think to sort that out, the action stops while I do so  

So, as others have said, be efficient. For action, be brutally efficient. If you find you can't fit in your early exposition (who are these guys and why are they fighting) without slowing things down, then save the exposition for a pause. Sometimes it helps to imagine the scene as it would play in a movie. The lights go up, and there's a fight. People are getting beaten and stripped and there's fire. This is exciting! You don't care why they're fighting yet because there are naked people on fire! But once that shock wears off, you'll have questions. A good writer knows the correct time to answer those questions. It could be now, it could be later--and sometimes, very rarely, the correct answer is never.  

 

I'm going to paste this on notepad so I can look it over from time to time if that's alright with you

[KSK]

7 hours ago, Just Jim said:

OK, I just looked that one up, and wow!!!  Are they serious? I mean, I'm impressed, but I also realize more than most just how much work they're talking about!

I tip my hat to anyone that's able to complete it.

I have a friend that completes it most years. It's a good way of getting words onto paper if that's how you roll and I gather that's mostly the point - its an exercise to get you into the discipline of sitting down and cranking out the words. Quality is mostly either optional or presumably (if your 50k words are halfway promising) - left to the editing stage.

I've never participated directly but I've spent a few 'writing dates' with said friend during the last few NaNoWriMos whilst I've been working on First Flight.  That's 'date' in strictly inverted commas I might add, with my dear wife well aware.  

[Guest]

Yeah, many of my 'straight' (non-fanfic) writer friends do NaNoWriMo regularly. 60-80k words is considered novel-sized, and it's not unusual for a committed writer to crank out 2-3k draft words in a day. So, challenging but not out of reach. My friend who's a big time published author did this a few years running, and I think the first book she sold might have started as a NaNo entry.

[adsii1970]

Question: should a chapter that contains fights between characters, death, etc. Come with a warning?

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, adsii1970 said:

Question: should a chapter that contains fights between characters, death, etc. Come with a warning?

I don't think so, no. The only time you would post a warning is if you're writing something that could "trigger" a reader's PTSD due to abuse, etc, or if you're writing something inappropriate for children in a place where children might read it. And if you're writing that sort of stuff, you probably shouldn't be posting it on the Forum anyway  

[Ten Key]

On 4/21/2017 at 3:08 PM, Just Jim said:

And I recommend every aspiring writer do the same... read everything you can. And not just read... READ... pay attention to your favorite authors, and to their style of writing. Learn why you like them, and remember it when you write. Don't copy them, but definitely study them. 

On 4/22/2017 at 11:59 AM, adsii1970 said:

Exactly - and do not just read science -fiction. Read non-fiction, too. This helps to not only expand your own knowledge base, but it gets you accustomed to another style of writing. In a sense, it is like adding another tool to your writer's tool kit.

I would add, there's value to be had from other forms of media as well. . .movies, TV shows, graphic novels, and even more abstract things like paintings and music. They may not teach you anything about writing, but they can teach you a bit about storytelling. And if nothing else, they can be wonderful kindling for your own imagination.  

 

18 hours ago, Ehco Corrallo said:

Tangent: I'm a big proponent of violence. I'd say you can't have too much violence and rioting, but I suppose there is an upper limit to what the soft-stomached reader will stand. Writing violence usually gets boring before then, though, in my experience.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree here. In some ways creative writing is an exercise in contrasts, and a good piece of story can become a great piece of story if it's properly supported by the writing on either side of it. A happy scene will land harder if it's preceded by a sad one. A serious scene will be more poignant if it follows a humorous one. Love and cruelty, hope and despair, light and dark. Descriptions of violence have a role to play in this, but they should be used sparingly-- if used continuously the reader will become numb to it, and that contrast won't be available when you need it. 

Sometimes though, you need to convey violent and/or dark events to the reader without necessarily delving into them. In these instances I prefer to keep the events in question "off camera" and focus instead on the aftermath.

 

Quote

The riots burned their way around the station, leaving a desperate and broken people even more so. The first targets had been the foreigners, those wealthy traders whose fortunes rode on the backs of a suffering native population. But the anger and the hurt had spilled over and now, the madness was complete. The station's lone hospital had tried to help, until it too had become a target. Now the injured huddled where ever they could, and safety could be very fleeting.

Raven held the bloody rag to her face, crouched low inside the ventilation shaft, the ringing in her ears rising and falling in rhythm with the overhead air fan. The hand on her shoulder tightened in warning and she froze, could hear it now over the roaring in her head, the rising sound of the mob. The two shipmates lay still as the riot thundered past them, and after a few minutes it was quiet again, save for the slow heartbeat of the fan.

Morales released Raven's shoulder, eased himself over to the other side of the duct. "Jesus Raven, that guy was at least twice your size. . .what the hell were you thinking?"

Two eyes stared back at him, hot tears and rage sparkling in the half light of the tunnel. 

"Yeah. . .okay, I know exactly what you were thinking. Just. . .next time try to get behind him first?" The laughter was slow, halfhearted, muffled as it was by the now dripping cloth. 

"Look, this station is just one big circle." Morales checked his watch, glanced out at the corridor. "I figure it'll take that group about twenty minutes to make it back here. Can you stand?"

 

[Ehco Corrallo]

2 hours ago, Ten Key said:

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree here. In some ways creative writing is an exercise in contrasts, and a good piece of story can become a great piece of story if it's properly supported by the writing on either side of it. A happy scene will land harder if it's preceded by a sad one. A serious scene will be more poignant if it follows a humorous one. Love and cruelty, hope and despair, light and dark. Descriptions of violence have a role to play in this, but they should be used sparingly-- if used continuously the reader will become numb to it, and that contrast won't be available when you need it. 

I'm afraid I have to totally agree with this. Contrast is absolutely critical for intensity, and simply for selling the full value of a scene. Creating contrast is also a phenomenal excuse to write bits of story that aren't otherwise integral to forward plot motion or character development. Definitely above violence in the writing hierarchy. It does work both ways though; violence and despair is really great for making a few cheery happy moments shine. Duality!

And I'm glad you pointed this out, because I was not clear enough earlier, and probably ought to have brought up the necessity of balancing tone. My point was that violence will get tiresome to write usually before it's tiresome (and bland) to read, so one shouldn't worry so much about using it sparingly; balance will come instinctively. If it doesn't, there's always the trusty red pen. 

[KSK]

7 hours ago, adsii1970 said:

Question: should a chapter that contains fights between characters, death, etc. Come with a warning?

It's a good question but in my opinion - no. Not unless you want to take out all the impact that fight or death is likely to have on your readers. Having said that I agree with @Kuzzter - situations where a warning might be appropriate are probably best left off the KSP forums. That would include (in my opinion) situations where violence is mixed with other adult themes, drawn out, lingering descriptions of gore, torture, or characters being otherwise gratuitously and  gruesomely unpleasant to one another.

Death per se though - I'd be upset if that was considered off-limits here.

 

[CatastrophicFailure]

11 minutes ago, KSK said:

It's a good question but in my opinion - no. Not unless you want to take out all the impact that fight or death is likely to have on your readers. Having said that I agree with @Kuzzter - situations where a warning might be appropriate are probably best left off the KSP forums. That would include (in my opinion) situations where violence is mixed with other adult themes, drawn out, lingering descriptions of gore, torture, or characters being otherwise gratuitously and  gruesomely unpleasant to one another.

Death per se though - I'd be upset if that was considered off-limits here.

 

Well, so much for my Game of Thrones crossover. SMH. 

[KSK]

1 hour ago, CatastrophicFailure said:

Well, so much for my Game of Thrones crossover. SMH. 

*blinks*

I'd love to see the premise for that crossover. And actually, I see no reason why it wouldn't be possible in principle. A Song of Ice and Fire is certainly violent but (as I recall) quite a lot of the violence is fairly cursory and not lingered on. Strategic use of 'off camera' material as suggested by @Ten Key and I see no reason why it wouldn't be forum acceptable. @czokletmuss's work for example didn't raise any moderator eyebrows despite a distinctly Game of Thrones body count.

Actually, a bigger problem might be toning down that body count a bit for artistic reasons. A Song of Ice and Fire has long since passed the point where the deaths have any impact in my opinion. Borrowing from @Ten Key and @Ehco Corrallo's comments, there's almost no duality or contrast any more. When you know any given character is likely to die, it takes out all the narrative tension and also makes it rather difficult to care about them.

[CSE]

On 25/04/2017 at 0:19 AM, Spaceception said:

I have the first 250 words of my book (It'll probably get more edits though) what do you guys think? Any tips to improve it?

Write more, and more, before improving what you have, I think. The structure and the pace may be easier or more obvious at chapter length. Write on!

[KSK]

16 hours ago, CSE said:

Write more, and more, before improving what you have, I think. The structure and the pace may be easier or more obvious at chapter length. Write on!

This is a good point. @Spaceception - I don't wish to disparage you in any way - seeking feedback is absolutely the way to improve and asking relative strangers to critique your work takes courage. It's also true (or so I've heard) that getting the opening paragraph of a book right is a fine art and an essential one to master if you plan to be published.

However, with that said:

Depending on typesetting, an average paperback will have around 350-400 words per page. 250 words is therefore about 2/3 of a single page of a novel. As @CSE pointed out, the structure and pace will become more obvious - and easier to give feedback on - once there's a bit more to read.

What I said about opening paragraphs notwithstanding, don't worry too much about getting it perfect at this stage. If you're anything like me (which you may not be), your writing style will almost certainly evolve as you go on. You could spend an awful lot of time getting the first 250 words just so, only to then find that they don't really match up with the rest of your novel anyway. As the saying goes 'perfect is the enemy of good'. Get that first draft finished, learn as you go, and then once you've got the whole picture in front of you, so to speak, go back and revise everything. Fix any continuity errors, close those plot loopholes and make your (now much evolved) style consistent across the whole novel.

Goodness knows that First Flight could use a hefty dose of that - my style was all over the place to start with. Which I'm not going to beat myself up about - apart from one short story many years ago, the last time I did any sort of creative writing was back in school. So no surprise that it took my writing a while to settle down.

Edit - stupid auto merge. This next bit was intended to be a separate post and not aimed at @Spaceception.

 

That last post got me thinking a bit about writing and feedback. So these are some general thoughts to everyone on this thread. They may be wrong, they may be misleading or just too personal to me, and they might not even be that helpful. If the more experienced writers and literary types here could chip in with their thoughts too, that would be wonderful. 

I can only go on personal experience here but my advice on writing after four years of doing it as a hobby would be:

1.  Write, write, write. Get into the habit of sitting down and churning out those words. It gives you the raw material to work with, lets you figure out how much you really enjoy this writing game anyway and that discipline and habit of simply bashing out words is very helpful when the story isn't going as well as you'd like.

2. Take feedback on board but don't write your story by committee. Only you know how the story is going to go and even the most well meaning of comments or suggestions might be wildly off-target.

3. Once you've gotten the writing habit, that's the time to pick up a 'how to' book or two. By now you'll be developing your own style and you'll have written enough to put any book advice into context. Diving into a 'how to' book too early runs the risk of simply being overwhelming and giving you too much to think about. Again - perfect is the enemy of good.

4. Personally I chose 'On Writing' by Stephen King. Your opinion of King's stories will no doubt be different to mine but in general I find his writing style to be fairly uncomplicated and easy to read, which seemed like a good place to start. I found that he had a lot of good, straightforward tips to offer in a relatively short and digestible package (unlike some of his novels.  ) Your mileage will of course, vary.

Edited April 27, 2017 by KSK
Fixed the power of ten problem with my words per page comment - sorry about that.

[Commander Zoom]

Seen on tumblr, here:

Readers: We'd really like an update.

Writers: Yeah me too.

[steuben]

@KSK as I think about my library, "On Writing" is worth reading. My ex-SIL lent me the book. Years later I added it to my library. But, it is pretty high level memoir stuff... which is what it is. Better than Bradbury's book, which came across as "I'm great, it's insanely easy for me, and you'll never be as good as me."  

Thinking about the general case, the Core Library Trifecta... dang. The effects guy is out for tea... would include it. In order of increasing resolution, "On Writing" as mentioned. "How NOT to Write a Novel", for the tropes level stuff. "Self-Editing for Fiction Writers: How to Edit Yourself Into Print" for the red/green/blue lines in Word stuff.  The rest of my writing library is specality stuff, "Fight Choreography: The Art of Non-Verbal Dialogue", "How to Write Science Fiction & Fantasy", "World-Building (Science Fiction Writing), etc.

[Just Jim]

On 4/25/2017 at 6:40 PM, adsii1970 said:

Question: should a chapter that contains fights between characters, death, etc. Come with a warning?

I agree with @Kuzzter and @KSK, you don't need them. In fact, it could take away the surprise and drama from a chapter or story... or cliffhanger. I personally haven't killed off a character (yet...) but I've made it appear that way... and also had some seriously violent moments... and while I think I freaked out a few people, no-one complained. 

Remember, and I've said this a bunch of times on here, you can't have a happy ending if it doesn't get dark and sad somewhere in the middle.

On 4/26/2017 at 0:24 AM, Ehco Corrallo said:

I'm afraid I have to totally agree with this. Contrast is absolutely critical for intensity, and simply for selling the full value of a scene. Creating contrast is also a phenomenal excuse to write bits of story that aren't otherwise integral to forward plot motion or character development. Definitely above violence in the writing hierarchy. It does work both ways though; violence and despair is really great for making a few cheery happy moments shine. Duality!

Agreed... I have no real problem with violence... but like everything else, if that's all there is, it gets boring really fast. You need to break it up. Even if it's an Arnold Schwarzenegger style one-liner like the classic "I'll be back...". Or adding a little romance... also fighting over a woman, or whatever. Something to break it up a little.

 

Edited April 27, 2017 by Just Jim

[adsii1970]

1 minute ago, Just Jim said:

I agree with @Kuzzter and @KSK, you don't need them. In fact, it could take away the surprise and drama from a chapter or story... or cliffhanger. I personally haven't killed off a character (yet...) but I've made it appear that way... and also had some seriously violent moments... and while I think I freaked out a few people, no-one complained. 

Remember, and I've said this a bunch of times on here, you can't have a happy ending if it doesn't get dark and sad somewhere in the middle.

Agreed... I have no real problem with violence... but like everything else, if that's all there is, it gets boring really fast. You need to break it up. Even if it's an Arnold Schwarzenegger style one-liner like the classic "I'll be back...". Or adding a little romance... also fighting over a woman, or whatever. Something to break it up a little. Like you said: Duality!

 

Well, I took the advice offered and in my latest chapter - I have a death and three fights - and a Kerman complaining like a complete jerk... So, I guess I have it all! Thanks, guys, for your opinions and guidance. Oh, I did kill off a minor character, but did it tastefully, if death can be considered as tasteful.

[Just Jim]

Just now, adsii1970 said:

Well, I took the advice offered and in my latest chapter - I have a death and three fights - and a Kerman complaining like a complete jerk... So, I guess I have it all! Thanks, guys, for your opinions and guidance. Oh, I did kill off a minor character, but did it tastefully, if death can be considered as tasteful.

I should mention I added a disclaimer once at the end of a chapter, but that was when I roasted Parka B. Kerman, and it was more a joke than anything.

***   Notice: No Kerbals were actually incinerated, seared, barbecued or otherwise poofed during the making of this chapter.   ***

 

[adsii1970]

15 minutes ago, Just Jim said:

I should mention I added a disclaimer once at the end of a chapter, but that was when I roasted Parka B. Kerman, and it was more a joke than anything.

***   Notice: No Kerbals were actually incinerated, seared, barbecued or otherwise poofed during the making of this chapter.   ***

 

Isn't roasting and barbecuing actually within *good taste*?

[KSK]

1 hour ago, adsii1970 said:

Isn't roasting and barbecuing actually within *good taste*?

Depends if the sauce is any good.

 

[Just Jim]

17 hours ago, KSK said:

Depends if the sauce is any good.

Oh, Ouch!!!  lmao

OK, back on-topic.... I never did comment back on NaNoWriMo .

The reason I found it so astounding is I put in context of writing Emiko Station. Lately my chapters average 2,500 - 3,000 words... more or less. Which means to complete the NaNoWriMo, I'd have to write a chapter a day for 18-20 days. And right now I'm lucky if I write more than one chapter in 18-20 days... lol.

It's really impressive, and I'm not sure I could maintain that pace...so again... massive respect to anyone that can!  

[Ehco Corrallo]

5 hours ago, Just Jim said:

Oh, Ouch!!!  lmao

OK, back on-topic.... I never did comment back on NaNoWriMo .

The reason I found it so astounding is I put in context of writing Emiko Station. Lately my chapters average 2,500 - 3,000 words... more or less. Which means to complete the NaNoWriMo, I'd have to write a chapter a day for 18-20 days. And right now I'm lucky if I write more than one chapter in 18-20 days... lol.

It's really impressive, and I'm not sure I could maintain that pace...so again... massive respect to anyone that can!  

It's not really hard, (I say, only having reached 30,000 words in a month) but quality is pretty much out the window. It has to be. Careful writing? Same window. Good writing may surface occasionally, but it's not really the point. Words are the point (and it can be dangerous to acclimate this philosophy back into normal writing). It's great practice for rough-drafting, though. Because eventually, it's possible to write quickly well. For example, aforementioned 30,000 word novel had some good parts, structurally it was a mess, but there were good parts; and if nothing else, NaNoWriMo is really good for dredging up new ideas. Writer's block vaporizes when you have to write 1,600-odd words along with everything else you're doing. Also, it's pretty hard. 

Writing a lot is great. I couldn't say why exactly, but it is.