A Thread for Writers to talk about Writing

[KSK]

1 minute ago, Mjp1050 said:

I've been misspelling Wernher's name the whole time? Oops...

I'm glad you're enjoying it, though.

Doesn't matter a bit - just makes your version of him stand out a bit.

 

[cy4n]

I made a story! What do you think?

 

[The solid fuel chemist]

just a question for you guys

 

i made a new story so im wondering how you do the thing under what you write so i can put a link there. please?

[edit] The story is named year 312 so pls check it out!

Edited November 28, 2016 by The solid fuel chemist

[steuben]

You can either paste the link directly or click on the link icon beneath italics.

But, you may want to break what you have written, in Year 312, apart into separate paragraphs.

[The solid fuel chemist]

@steubenno i mean the thing that is the same under all of your posts. for you, its that "think big, launch big" thing

[KSK]

3 hours ago, The solid fuel chemist said:

@steubenno i mean the thing that is the same under all of your posts. for you, its that "think big, launch big" thing

It's a signature. To set yours:

Log in.
Click on the drop-down menu next to your name at the top right corner of the screen.
Select Account Settings
Select the 'Signature' tab from the options on the left.
Enter whatever you like in the text editing window.

Edited December 5, 2016 by KSK

[Ten Key]

A long time ago, some friends and I were walking near a parade route and we passed by a float that had a pair of large drums on it, one to each side. One of my friends turned and asked, "How can they both hit their drums at the same time if they can't see each other?" Meanwhile, I was having to mentally force myself to not walk in lockstep with the rhythm the drummers were playing. It was a powerful lesson that our minds are not always wired the same way.

Bearing that in mind, I found this article fascinating (The Science of Reading) and wanted to run it past you all (and hopefully spark a bit of conversation ). 

 

I know I rely on "inner speech" a lot during my day-to-day, and not just when I'm writing. But when I am writing, my inner monologue can turn into a conference call. I really can hear my characters (the Zaltonic manager in my story, Lou, sounds just like the head of the Apollo 1 investigation board in From the Earth to the Moon. One of the engineers he's arguing with is in turn voiced by an engineer from Apollo 13. Do not get me started on Hudbert. ) and I oftentimes find myself voicing characters from other stories in my head as I go along. I think this may be one of the reasons accents are so difficult to write. . .if an established accent drifts over time and ends up different than what I've been hearing in my head, it can be jarring.

But more than that, I do find that I read with a sort of voiceless narrator that turns over every word and sentence as though it were being read aloud, and that in turn gives the text an auditory quality it would not otherwise have. Words that are slow or awkward to pronounce become irritating-- why would anyone use dived, shined or lighted when dove, shone and lit are so much easier to say? And try as I might, I keep crawling back to "manned" spaceflight-- "crewed" and "crude" are, after all, homophones. 

 

When I was in college, I had the opportunity to observe several extemporaneous speaking competitions and participate in some of the practice sessions, and I was struck by the notion that there is a power to language beyond just the meaning of the words and the arguments assembled from them. There is a sing-song quality to a well crafted speech that is a direct correlation to music-- you can use words and phrases or even sentences and paragraphs to build up melodies of a sort that have the same impact on a reader as a well written piece of music. In that video I just linked, there is a bit that starts with "This is a musician's life", and then there is a nice, long build up with long sentences and slow words. And then, "If somebody tells you that there's a rule, break it." Can you feel the increase in pace with that contraction? The emphasis on the last two words? Can you hear the notes, the music, in that monologue? 

In English, Dante's Inferno is an absolute slog. But in Italian, it is magic. 

I don't know how common this "inner speech" thing is. Maybe most people do it. . .maybe I'm weird. But if you're having difficulty with a particular bit of writing, you might try reading it back out loud. Your readers might already be doing just that.  

[steuben]

The solid fuel chemist, I'll comment on year 312 here rather than in its thread.

technical

- break it up into paragraphs. You'll want to start a new one when ever the speaker changes. And usually when you go from speaking to description/action and vice versa. It is easy to get lost when it is a big block of text.

- run it through your word processor of choice. There was one homonym that I saw, there might be a few others. And it will catch any other spelling and/or grammar mistakes that you might have, including some missed capitals.

- consistency of C-K exchange,  you missed one.

style

- you're placing the hooks correctly at the end of each chapter.

- when the hail is chewing through the ship, in chapter 2, you may want to shorten the sentences. It will help speed up the action. Except for maybe two sections, the first is when Jeb is talking with Val, and the other is when the lander gets ripped away.

 

 

[KSK]

11 hours ago, Ten Key said:

*a load of good stuff snipped*

I don't know how common this "inner speech" thing is. Maybe most people do it. . .maybe I'm weird. But if you're having difficulty with a particular bit of writing, you might try reading it back out loud. Your readers might already be doing just that.  

I don't think my inner speech is as vivid as yours but yes - I do have a 'silent voice' for any dialogue. If said voice sounds as though he/she has swallowed a dictionary or is reading from a technical manual (unless of course a checklist is being read or some such), then it's normally time to tighten up that dialogue a bit.

On a similar note, what I also do quite a lot is to act out any gestures my characters are making, to make sure they fit and express the emotion I'm trying to convey. Pro-tip - its usually best to do this in private to avoid strange looks from your significant other.  

[Mister Dilsby]

Inner speech is an incredibly important tool. It works after the fact, too--quite often I'll have a line in mind in my head, and then it goes into the word balloon and I think "wait, there's no way Bob would ever say it like that", and then Bob tells me what the line should be. Of course, for it to work you have to have that character fully formed enough to have developed a strong and consistent voice. 

One thing I've tried to do over the course of the Kerbfleet saga is to have those voices develop and change as the characters' relationships with each other develop and grow. This is especially important when you've latched onto a key characteristic early to cement the character's personality with the reader.

Good recent example for me is Bob Kerman. He was famous in Eve: Order Zero for screaming about 'concerns' all the time and second-guessing everyone's decisions. I think anyone who reads my thread can duplicate that basic voice well enough to write some elementary Kerbfleet Bob dialogue. It's predictable, which makes it accessible--but of course that can also be cliché.

So, I figured that by the time he got in a cockpit with Tedus again they should both have grown a bit. Bob softens when Tedus opens up to him a little--only to transfer his righteous ire to Bill two pages later  

Edited December 6, 2016 by Kuzzter

[adsii1970]

@Kuzzter: Inner speech won't work in a journal format because essentially the entire thing is "inner speech." However, I've learned it can be kind of fun to have my character add his ramblings into the post. It makes him (Kerny), in my opinion, seem more lifelike - after all, we do all have those "oh, look, a squirrel.." moments.

Right now, Kerny and his crew are heading towards Minimus, and will be en route for the next six "days."  I've thought about doing an entry in transit, focusing on his observations and recommendations on the craft.. but been thinking about also including some of his meditations on the research he's been doing... What are your thoughts?

 

[Mister Dilsby]

15 minutes ago, adsii1970 said:

@Kuzzter: Inner speech won't work in a journal format because essentially the entire thing is "inner speech." However, I've learned it can be kind of fun to have my character add his ramblings into the post. It makes him (Kerny), in my opinion, seem more lifelike - after all, we do all have those "oh, look, a squirrel.." moments.

Inner speech can have a lot of meanings. I took it to mean what I perceived @KSK was talking about with 'silent voice'--that is, the character's voice inside the author's head. @Ten Key referenced an 'inner monologue' in his head, in his characters' voices. 

But, inner speech meaning 'a character's inner thoughts given verbatim in the story', yes that's a useful tool. In fact, I would say that the nature of KSP fiction requires it due to the time spent traveling. So @adsii1970, your six day Minmus trip represents more than just time to fill: it's an opportunity to naturally get across to the reader any exposition that needs to get done on characters, craft, or other story developments that don't fit in the usual journal entries. That's how (and when) I typically use my 'interludes'. 

[Just Jim]

14 hours ago, Ten Key said:

I don't know how common this "inner speech" thing is. Maybe most people do it. . .maybe I'm weird. But if you're having difficulty with a particular bit of writing, you might try reading it back out loud. Your readers might already be doing just that.

Wow, there's a lot of good stuff on this "inner speech" subject. In my case, it's like almost a daydream, but not quite. I like to turn on something old and campy, then only half watch it and run a chapter over and over in my head, especially the dialog. But what's in my head isn't always what ends up getting written down.

Like @Kuzzter said:

1 hour ago, Kuzzter said:

...and I think "wait, there's no way Bob would ever say it like that", and then Bob tells me what the line should be. Of course, for it to work you have to have that character fully formed enough to have developed a strong and consistent voice.

I do this a lot as well. I'll have something in my head, but after writing it down and then proofreading, I may think it sounds completely wrong. The character I do this most often with is Thompberry. He has developed a very unique way of speaking, and there are times I can almost hear him gurgling... 

 

Edited December 6, 2016 by Just Jim

[0111narwhalz]

Speaking of ol' Thompers... Why does he gurgle? He's a brain-in-a-box; he doesn't have anything with which to gurgle. It must just be an affectation, brought on by his preconcieved notions of how a villain should sound.

Which means he doesn't need to gurgle.

[adsii1970]

Don't dare disparage my hero, Thompberry!

[steuben]

Inner speech... I think I've only heard the sound of the voice of any of my characters a few times. But, I do know what they say and how they say it... even when they aren't talking in any normal, or abnormal, sense of the word.

 

[Just Jim]

28 minutes ago, 0111narwhalz said:

Speaking of ol' Thompers... Why does he gurgle? He's a brain-in-a-box; he doesn't have anything with which to gurgle. It must just be an affectation, brought on by his preconcieved notions of how a villain should sound.

Which means he doesn't need to gurgle.

No, he doesn't. I envision him as floating in a container filled with some sort of Cerebrospinal fluid, connected by thousands of tiny electrodes, or artificial nerve endings, to an internal computer, which would then connect to a voice box. Technically it shouldn't gurgle.

The idea was to be more of a sort of background gurgling sound. Something to make him unique and weird sounding, like Darth Vader's breathing effect.

[KSK]

5 minutes ago, Just Jim said:

No, he doesn't. I envision him as floating in a container filled with some sort of Cerebrospinal fluid, connected by thousands of tiny electrodes, or artificial nerve endings, to an internal computer, which would then connect to a voice box. Technically it shouldn't gurgle.

The idea was to be more of a sort of background gurgling sound. Something to make him unique and weird sounding, like Darth Vader's breathing effect.

Of course, ol' Thompberry could just be a wee bit genre savvy and playing up the sound effects because what use is a brain-inna-jar  without gurgles?

[Mister Dilsby]

38 minutes ago, 0111narwhalz said:

Which means he doesn't need to gurgle.

Do any of us really need to gurgle? And yet, we do...

32 minutes ago, steuben said:

Inner speech... I think I've only heard the sound of the voice of any of my characters a few times. 

One nice thing about the graphic format is that we get to use word balloons rather than "he said" speech tags, and the pictures take care of scene-setting. That means that the only words on the page are the characters' voices, direct to the audience--which not only makes them easier to hear, it forces strong distinctions. I really notice this when I read page aloud to @Nimzo Kerman. All the characters have different voices, and I don't just mean their regional accents: there is pitch, and cadence, and word choice. If Dad is doing his job right, the kids should be able to tell which character is speaking without seeing the page at all.

 

[adsii1970]

I notice this too. In my world, Gene sounds a lot like the actor who played Gene in Apollo 13, Jebediah sounds a bit like Alan Alda, Bill sounds like fox Mulder, and Kerny has a voice that reminds me of the voice of Robert Mitchum, but then maybe again, i watch too much television and old movies...

when I read @Just Jim's story, Thompberry has a voice that reminds me of James Earl Jones...

[Just Jim]

6 minutes ago, adsii1970 said:

when I read @Just Jim's story, Thompberry has a voice that reminds me of James Earl Jones...

If I could pick anyone for Thompberry's voice, I would have to go back much further...

   Boris Karloff   

32 minutes ago, KSK said:

Of course, ol' Thompberry could just be a wee bit genre savvy and playing up the sound effects because what use is a brain-inna-jar  without gurgles?

That's hilarious... I may have to use this down the road   

21 minutes ago, Kuzzter said:

Do any of us really need to gurgle? And yet, we do...

One nice thing about the graphic format is that we get to use word balloons rather than "he said" speech tags, and the pictures take care of scene-setting. That means that the only words on the page are the characters' voices, direct to the audience--which not only makes them easier to hear, it forces strong distinctions. I really notice this when I read page aloud to @Nimzo Kerman. All the characters have different voices, and I don't just mean their regional accents: there is pitch, and cadence, and word choice. If Dad is doing his job right, the kids should be able to tell which character is speaking without seeing the page at all.

I envy you in a way. Balloons are so much easier than trying to come up with "he/she said" tags that aren't repetitive.

[KSK]

2 minutes ago, Just Jim said:

I envy you in a way. Balloons are so much easier than trying to come up with "he/she said" tags that aren't repetitive.

And there's a good topic for discussion! Dialogue, avoiding repetition and variations on the "he/she said" tags that don't sound too goofy or 'boys own comic'?

[adsii1970]

14 minutes ago, Just Jim said:

If I could pick anyone for Thompberry's voice, I would have to go back much further...

   Boris Karloff  

[edited by adsii1970 for content I want to discuss]

Either Boris Karloff or Peter Cushing... Now that you mention it... wow...

[DarkOwl57]

1 hour ago, adsii1970 said:

I notice this too. In my world, Gene sounds a lot like the actor who played Gene in Apollo 13, Jebediah sounds a bit like Alan Alda, Bill sounds like fox Mulder, and Kerny has a voice that reminds me of the voice of Robert Mitchum, but then maybe again, i watch too much television and old movies...

when I read @Just Jim's story, Thompberry has a voice that reminds me of James Earl Jones...

In my mind, Jeb is like Han solo, Bob is...... Sorta like my dad I guess, Bill is Tim Allen (Don't ask), and Val is like Leia.

[UnusualAttitude]

18 hours ago, Ten Key said:

I don't know how common this "inner speech" thing is. Maybe most people do it. . .maybe I'm weird.

Then you are not alone in your weirdness. In fact, a while back I took this one step further and actually recorded myself reading through a few passages of The Camwise Logs and forced myself to listen to it. It really brought to light the fact that many of my sentences were too long and convoluted. I'm really trying to make an effort to slowly improve that now. Really. 

And the thing about a first-person log (and maybe this is what @adsii1970 meant, because he is basically doing the same thing), is that you have to imagine your whole narrative with this voice, not just the dialogues. There is no neutral "voiceless narrator". The whole thing is a monologue of your main character(s). So it must be consistent and distinctive, without being over-the-top and impossible to keep up for 100,000 words or more. That is really hard to do for Bartdon, in particular, with all his damning and blasting. It's just one of those things that seemed like a good idea at the time, I suppose...

By the way, my inner Bartdon sounds almost exactly like John Rhys-Davies. Froemone is, of course, uhm... Elon Musk. Not sure about Camwise. Maybe an improbably tech-savvy Arthur Dent with a slight gallic accent. Weird indeed.