adding multiplayer

[Jatwaa]

Interesting factoid. Much like the others noted. I would gather they had a SP experience coded, then an MP. Squad has, numerous times, referenced the same. So, the three I noted would thus be acceptable. But sure, others, like Subnautica, Stardew Valley and Don't Starve. Don't Starve already implemented theirs. Subnautica and Stardew Valley have it planned and likely in testing as well. Oddly people misunderstand why some would enjoy a good coop game as well side by side with a good SP. Whats better, for KSP, is the lack of need to provide deep MP content. They need to set rules and the mechanisms. 

[Jatwaa]

On 7/30/2016 at 5:06 AM, AlamoVampire said:

Why is this still alive? I think at this point, a few things are obvious:

1. There is a MOD that does this ALREADY!!! so why is squad wasting time <now, or later> pandering to a small portion of the population, when again, there is a MOD that does this?
2. No, really, WHY is it Squad is going to at some point pander to a small portion of the player base and make stock what a MOD already does and yet, something that has REAL UTILITY like MechJeb is never up for Stock Candidacy, when it has a much LARGER base of folks who are screaming for it to be stock?
3. It is CLEAR that part counts will be a SERIOUS issue, it is CLEAR some people run subpar machines that barely handle 100 part ships and yet, get 2 people with moderate crafts and you can blow past 200 parts in a hurry, it is CLEAR mods <part mods> will be an issue, say you run BD, I dont. I run NovaPunch, you dont. Will we be able to see each other or will we crash the system? It is NOT REMOTELY possible to plan for and prevent every contingency, issue, or troll.
4. Expanding on 3. What is to stop a player from making a ship and launching 300+ decouplers, launching into an orbit, punching the decouplers into space and repeating this until the sky is a minefield similar to the one seen in either WALL-E or Cowboy Bebop? Whats to stop a player from going into a server and wrecking everything and staying around long enough for the AUTO save to happen, and rewriting the Quick Saves? Seriously, how do you stop this? Answer? IT CANT BE.

Now, I FULLY expect people to come at me saying things like well, servers can be set for so and so and blah blah blah so that WONT happen. Sorry, it can happen no matter how well prepared you are.

Look, its simple. DMP takes care of this. Also, and just as importantly, this game has issues, serious issues. Some are local to the games code, some are on Unity, and until this game is STABLE, yes, its NOT stable. Better, perhaps, but, still bad, and until its not, multiplayer needs to remain a far far 31st century distant thing. And the other things are dealt with, like Gas Planet 2, or heck, CONSOLE stability is now a thing too, and yet people STILL want multiplayer added..  come on folks, its not remotely acceptable for it to be now, or even 3 years from now a thing. 6 to 10 years down the road, perhaps.

1. This is an assumption that it would be a small set of people that would use it. This is not fact, it is an uncertain, also biased, opinion. I am biased the other way so I am just as guilty in my assumption that people WOULD like it. 

2. Refer to the above + I do (and did) back Mechjeb. Fantastic mod. I would vouch for it. Then again...it doesn't need much work because it is already great. They would just have to tweak and distribute it. 

3. Parts count is a massive issue. I have a few 1000+ craft that will fly fine together but not so much with the others. Beyond welding hulls, this could be a problem. But, I am not asking them to take this into account actually. Let the end players build their craft accordingly and host from a fast, powerful and low latency system or host or know that the environment may not be overly considerate...kind of how the game is already. Mod requirement checking isn't too complex. You can't stop all trolls. Simply said, all they would need to do is offer the MP option and rule set at a high level and possibly password protection. 

4. They have the ability to clear debris already. I use it when I am on sandbox. Sure there will be complications. Heck people can spawn 1000s of mobs in Minecraft. You kind of just deal with it and laugh or get upset. Or both...it happens. I just make sure I know who I am gaming with. As with the current game, backup the saves and set it to an interval. It is the best anyone can hope for in any game.  

I am not asking them to take into account Each and EVERY possible troll or small concern. I would be all for removing Warp all together. The problem people have with DMP is the bugs and latency. I could list on for days why I stopped using DMP. I really...REALLY would like DMP to be the end all for MP. But it's just not. The game does have issues, yes. I would not debate that. I am not saying, STOP EVERYTHING and give me MP. Because...no, the game itself does indeed need some fixes for bugs. I have a dancing Minmus base. But, MP was on the table before, once things are stable state, THEN MP as an option would be viable. 

[Alshain]

3 hours ago, kiwi1960 said:

If they added MP to KSP then it wouldn't feel like KSP anymore, I know they wouldn't remove the single player option, do I look stupid? The point is that KSP was developed as a single player game... it should stay that way... or it just wouldn't be KSP anymore!

 

Those games always had MP, and so cannot be used as an example, they were designed to be MP along side SP .. those are the kinds of games more suited to MP... not KSP.
 

Thanks. Glad to see someone gets it.

 

No offense, but "It won't feel like KSP" isn't a sound argument against it.  Your saying your feeling is a reason to deprive a bunch of people that want it.  No real justification beyond "it's just a feeling".  Do you not see how that sounds?  If that is the argument that works then I feel like it will be KSP and better KSP if it does have multiplayer.  No reason, just a feeling.

Edited August 5, 2016 by Alshain

[kiwi1960]

27 minutes ago, Alshain said:

No offense, but "It won't feel like KSP" isn't a sound argument against it.  Your saying your feeling is a reason to deprive a bunch of people that want it.  No real justification beyond "it's just a feeling".  Do you not see how that sounds?  If that is the argument that works then I feel like it will be KSP and better KSP if it does have multiplayer.  No reason, just a feeling.

What I meant by "feel" is that its a single player game, its geared to it... its not really a MP realistic game... "co-op" ?? To what end? Landing on a planet! Problem is, if one of you cannot land on a planet then what makes you think two can do it? One person can do it... so what is the point of MP?

Now... you will mention a "war".... a war game would involve a mod... add another one for MP.... no big deal....

The problem is that you want Squad to add a MP option with no real benefits.... it would only appeal to a few people, not everyone, why should they divert their attention from the single player KSP with all its many quirks and bugs and add MP??? I'd rather they fixed the wheels... and the other bugs you just KNOW will be in 1.2

As an idea, its OK, but as a serious option, I doubt it will ever fly. KSP was always only meant to be a single player game... and I'd like it to stay that way myself. If that annoys you, then sure, tell me off... I'd even ask the mods not to punish you.... because its good that you care about the game to want to have it added.... but..... just not now.... lets get the game 99.9% bug free, no more stutter... and other things added to the core game.... THEN look at it.

Edited August 5, 2016 by kiwi1960

[Alshain]

18 minutes ago, kiwi1960 said:

What I meant by "feel" is that its a single player game, its geared to it... its not really a MP realistic game... "co-op" ?? To what end? Landing on a planet! Problem is, if one of you cannot land on a planet then what makes you think two can do it? One person can do it... so what is the point of MP?

You say it isn't realistic, you do realize NASA wasn't one person... right?  Co-op can take many forms, building a station or base together, have a space race, have mission control, there are tons of ideas in this thread if you would read them.

 

18 minutes ago, kiwi1960 said:

The problem is that you want Squad to add a MP option with no real benefits.... it would only appeal to a few people, not everyone, why should they divert their attention from the single player KSP with all its many quirks and bugs and add MP??? I'd rather they fixed the wheels... and the other bugs you just KNOW will be in 1.2

You say it would only appeal to a few people.  How do you know this?  Just curious, did you ask every KSP player?

18 minutes ago, kiwi1960 said:

As an idea, its OK, but as a serious option, I doubt it will ever fly. KSP was always only meant to be a single player game... and I'd like it to stay that way myself. If that annoys you, then sure, tell me off... I'd even ask the mods not to punish you.... because its good that you care about the game to want to have it added.... but..... just not now.... lets get the game 99.9% bug free, no more stutter... and other things added to the core game.... THEN look at it.

Time will tell if it flies or not, but regardless, Squad has already committed to it, so best get used to the idea, it's coming like it or not.  I'm certainly not telling you off, discussion is fine but I can't provide counter arguments to "a feeling" because that isn't a real reason not to add it.  I don't think anyone in the thread here expects it to happen before 1.2, so the repeated suggestions that other stuff must get done first really doesn't work.  Other stuff is going to get done first.

Edited August 5, 2016 by Alshain

[TheGuyNamedAlan]

multiplayer would make it that us multiplayer fans not download so much mods

[kiwi1960]

Yeah, it is coming...... but just not right now. Get the game sorted out first.

I thought of this a few minutes ago, putting it into words...

In KSP, there isn't even a computer opponent... you play against yourself... its not all that suited to multi player... accept it.

You statement @Alshain .... about NASA doesn't apply at all... you DO know NASA is real life, right? You do know KSP is just a game.... right?

 

[AlamoVampire]

15 hours ago, Frozen_Heart said:

They wouldn't remove the single player if they added multiplayer.... you get that right?

Ever hear of Call of Duty? Back when it focused on ww2 and single player only it was a superb franchise. The moment multiplayer became a thing in CoD single player content and its quality went down hill and has not stopped its downhill run. And that franchise is run by what a BILLION dollar + company? Now, look at KSP and squad. NOT a billion dollar + company. You cannot honestly expect a "mom and pop" sized operation like Squad to NOT do harm to single player by trying to do what a MOD ALREADY DOES.

 

@kiwi1960 If they take proper time to fix the game into a stable state, which I think with unity and its problems, mp is at least a decade out at earliest.

Edited August 5, 2016 by AlamoVampire

[Jatwaa]

9 minutes ago, AlamoVampire said:

Ever hear of Call of Duty? Back when it focused on ww2 and single player only it was a superb franchise. The moment multiplayer became a thing in CoD single player content and its quality went down hill and has not stopped its downhill run. And that franchise is run by what a BILLION dollar + company? Now, look at KSP and squad. NOT a billion dollar + company. You cannot honestly expect a "mom and pop" sized operation like Squad to NOT do harm to single player by trying to do what a MOD ALREADY DOES.

 

@kiwi1960 If they take proper time to fix the game into a stable state, which I think with unity and its problems, mp is at least a decade out at earliest.

Except there are numerous games that have multiplayer done by smaller studios with less coding experience. DMP as a mod is not required to be updated. You would be asking Godarklight to maintain mp for a company for free? As for MP, they simply have to provide a workable code to allow mp and a rule set for admins to manage it, then, just maintain it. We are not talking a whole new game type like COD. That would be overboard. 

[razark]

Here's the bottom line:
All our complaints of "I want KSP to be exactly what I think it should be, no more or less." are meaningless.  There's not a single one of use that is going to get exactly what we want.

Yes, we can make suggestions.  The thing about suggestions is that they can be rejected or ignored.  Once your suggestion has been suggested, screaming and whining about it is not going to make it anything more of a demand.  Multiplayer has been decided as something Squad wants to add to the game.  Get used to the idea.  Go forth and unwad thy panties.  Good or bad, we're getting multiplayer.

 

Now, can we move on and discuss/make suggestions about how we think the multiplayer we're going to get should work?

 

BRB.  Just saw the horse run by.  Need to go close the barn door now.

Edited August 5, 2016 by razark

[DaMachinator]

14 minutes ago, Jatwaa said:

Except there are numerous games that have multiplayer done by smaller studios with less coding experience. DMP as a mod is not required to be updated. You would be asking Godarklight to maintain mp for a company for free? As for MP, they simply have to provide a workable code to allow mp and a rule set for admins to manage it, then, just maintain it. We are not talking a whole new game type like COD. That would be overboard. 

The biggest technical issue is how to do time warp, in my opinion. I like the way DMP does it, but it feels unpolished. 

The second biggest technical detail is how MP is handled in the background and how to deal with latency.  

Client-server setup? You can offload some processing onto the server, and one person with bad latency doesn't bog down everyone else. However, you can get issues like rubberbanding and time jumps/fast forward. (Anyone who's played one of the several.io games should know what I mean by fast forward)

Peer to peer? No dedicated server required, but every peer must process everything. One player with bad latency or a slow computer slows everyone down. Best suited for LAN games where all players have similar hardware. 

Edited August 5, 2016 by DaMachinator

[Alshain]

37 minutes ago, kiwi1960 said:

You statement @Alshain .... about NASA doesn't apply at all... you DO know NASA is real life, right? You do know KSP is just a game.... right?

You said you wanted an "MP realistic game" and now you complain when I reference real life? 

Perhaps you should take a look here

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/realism

31 minutes ago, AlamoVampire said:

 

@kiwi1960 If they take proper time to fix the game into a stable state, which I think with unity and its problems, mp is at least a decade out at earliest.

A decade?  Really, you think they are going to be developing KSP for a decade more?  I think Multiplayer is probably going to show up within the next year, maybe 2... even that is a stretch though.

[AlamoVampire]

@Jatwaa Multiplayer is simply a BAD idea for KSP, and here is for example why:

Time Warp. If I want to for example, go to say Eeloo, OR BEYOND Eeloo and have lifted off of Kerbin for example, and you for example want to go to Moho. I launch first, and begin warping, by all rights my warp just tanked YOUR launch window. How do you cope with that?

Mods. I personally run: KIS/KAS, MechJeb, Proc Fairings and Novapunch, Cacteye, Reentry Particle Effects and Chatterer. Lets say you run some of the mods I do, but, you do not run say Novapunch. Lets then say, I have a station built with NovaPunch and KIS/KAS. Does my station show up? If so, CAN you dock with it? I doubt it. How do you handle this?

Debris. What if I have max debris set to max, and you have it set to 0? How does this work? Is my debris impactless to you? Is it invisible man?

Trolls. Cant plan for everything they do.

Quick Saves/Reloads. 

I could go on, but, wont.

[Jatwaa]

8 minutes ago, DaMachinator said:

The biggest technical issue is how to do time warp, in my opinion. I like the way DMP does it, but it feels unpolished. 

The second biggest technical detail is how MP is handled in the background and how to deal with latency.  

Client-server setup? You can offload some processing onto the server, and one person with bad latency doesn't bog down everyone else. However, you can get issues like rubberbanding and time jumps/fast forward. (Anyone who's played one of the several.io games should know what I mean by fast forward)

Peer to peer? No dedicated server required, but every peer must process everything. One player with bad latency or a slow computer slows everyone down. Best suited for LAN games where all players have similar hardware. 

Aye peer to peer would be a bit troublesome off a lan. Dedicated server would be the way to go. Rubberbanding does suck. Me personally, I would pay for a host site and run a dedicated from there

[Alshain]

1 minute ago, Jatwaa said:

Aye peer to peer would be a bit troublesome off a lan. Dedicated server would be the way to go. Rubberbanding does suck. Me personally, I would pay for a host site and run a dedicated from there

I agree there.  Having a hosted dedicated server is going to be very important, otherwise you have clients fighting with each other on what should be where due to floating point errors.  The server could utilize the client machines for offsite physics processing, but ultimately the server needs to decide and the clients need to obey.

[Jatwaa]

3 minutes ago, AlamoVampire said:

@Jatwaa Multiplayer is simply a BAD idea for KSP, and here is for example why:

Time Warp. If I want to for example, go to say Eeloo, OR BEYOND Eeloo and have lifted off of Kerbin for example, and you for example want to go to Moho. I launch first, and begin warping, by all rights my warp just tanked YOUR launch window. How do you cope with that?

Mods. I personally run: KIS/KAS, MechJeb, Proc Fairings and Novapunch, Cacteye, Reentry Particle Effects and Chatterer. Lets say you run some of the mods I do, but, you do not run say Novapunch. Lets then say, I have a station built with NovaPunch and KIS/KAS. Does my station show up? If so, CAN you dock with it? I doubt it. How do you handle this?

Debris. What if I have max debris set to max, and you have it set to 0? How does this work? Is my debris impactless to you? Is it invisible man?

Trolls. Cant plan for everything they do.

Quick Saves/Reloads. 

I could go on, but, wont.

Actually its pretty simple, then again some would not like the idea. 

The host or dediated server admin sets the rules. Permitted mods etc.

1. Warping should be all or none. All agree to warp or there is a long wait. No reverts. Hardcore...may suck but. Is what it is. But leave that rule up to the server admin as an option.

2. Mod checker, not difficult.

3. Trolls...eh can't be helped. Password protect your instance if playing in MP and backup the main save in increments.

4. Quick Save and reloads are up to the Admin/Host. 

Alot of the problems with the rules are not up to Squad but the local admins hosting the server. Keeps Squads hands clean. Best example...unfortunately, is Minecraft. Rules can be set by the admin...i used to run a Spigot server. From there people join and have fun, troll or mine. 

[AlamoVampire]

18 minutes ago, Jatwaa said:

Actually its pretty simple, then again some would not like the idea. 

The host or dediated server admin sets the rules. Permitted mods etc.

1. Warping should be all or none. All agree to warp or there is a long wait. No reverts. Hardcore...may suck but. Is what it is. But leave that rule up to the server admin as an option.

2. Mod checker, not difficult.

3. Trolls...eh can't be helped. Password protect your instance if playing in MP and backup the main save in increments.

4. Quick Save and reloads are up to the Admin/Host. 

Alot of the problems with the rules are not up to Squad but the local admins hosting the server. Keeps Squads hands clean. Best example...unfortunately, is Minecraft. Rules can be set by the admin...i used to run a Spigot server. From there people join and have fun, troll or mine. 

1. Should be NONE, then that removes going beyond Low Kerbin Orbit. What fun is that? NONE. Strike 1 against MP.

2. Adds maintain costs in time spent checking code. Strike 2.

3. No password is 100% secure. I want to tell a quick story of a friend, who, had his account hacked on WoW. His account was password protected AND had one of those devices that generates a single use password in addition. Still lost all his gear and gold to a hacker. Strike 3.

4. And if the host says NO to quicksaves/loads then, what becomes of the hours spent in VAB or SPH tweaking that ship as it goes BOOM on the pad?

Servers cost money and is it really worth that kinda cost when again, there is a MOD that does MP? not really.

Edited August 5, 2016 by AlamoVampire

[TheCanadianVendingMachine]

19 minutes ago, AlamoVampire said:

1. Should be NONE, then that removes going beyond Low Kerbin Orbit. What fun is that? NONE. Strike 1 against MP.

2. Adds maintain costs in time spent checking code. Strike 2.

3. No password is 100% secure. I want to tell a quick story of a friend, who, had his account hacked on WoW. His account was password protected AND had one of those devices that generates a single use password in addition. Still lost all his gear and gold to a hacker. Strike 3.

4. And if the host says NO to quicksaves/loads then, what becomes of the hours spent in VAB or SPH tweaking that ship as it goes BOOM on the pad?

Servers cost money and is it really worth that kinda cost when again, there is a MOD that does MP? not really.

Why do you care about MP being added to KSP if it doesn't affect you at all? Give 1 reason

[DaMachinator]

58 minutes ago, Jatwaa said:

Actually its pretty simple, then again some would not like the idea. 

The host or dediated server admin sets the rules. Permitted mods etc.

1. Warping should be all or none. All agree to warp or there is a long wait. No reverts. Hardcore...may suck but. Is what it is. But leave that rule up to the server admin as an option.

2. Mod checker, not difficult.

3. Trolls...eh can't be helped. Password protect your instance if playing in MP and backup the main save in increments.

4. Quick Save and reloads are up to the Admin/Host. 

Alot of the problems with the rules are not up to Squad but the local admins hosting the server. Keeps Squads hands clean. Best example...unfortunately, is Minecraft. Rules can be set by the admin...i used to run a Spigot server. From there people join and have fun, troll or mine. 

 

1 hour ago, AlamoVampire said:

@Jatwaa Multiplayer is simply a BAD idea for KSP, and here is for example why:

Time Warp. If I want to for example, go to say Eeloo, OR BEYOND Eeloo and have lifted off of Kerbin for example, and you for example want to go to Moho. I launch first, and begin warping, by all rights my warp just tanked YOUR launch window. How do you cope with that?

Mods. I personally run: KIS/KAS, MechJeb, Proc Fairings and Novapunch, Cacteye, Reentry Particle Effects and Chatterer. Lets say you run some of the mods I do, but, you do not run say Novapunch. Lets then say, I have a station built with NovaPunch and KIS/KAS. Does my station show up? If so, CAN you dock with it? I doubt it. How do you handle this?

Debris. What if I have max debris set to max, and you have it set to 0? How does this work? Is my debris impactless to you? Is it invisible man?

Trolls. Cant plan for everything they do.

Quick Saves/Reloads. 

I could go on, but, wont.

Most of these can be handled by a client-server setup where all these settings (debris count, etc) are set by the server and the clients use these settings. 

As for trolls, good multiplayer servers come with proper admin software and the ability to have a whitelist or blacklist. 

Mods are already handled by stock. If your game doesn't recognize a part on a vessel, it doesn't load. Also, joining a server without ensuring that you have the right mods is a great way to make yourself look like an idiot. 

Warping, quicksaves/reloads, and reverts: DarkMultiPlayer handles this well, albeit in an unpolished manner. The time frame implementation would hopefully calculate resource usage and provide an option to lock your time frame to that of another player in a finished product. 

 

What I'm secretly hoping for is a way to do IVA missions with RPM with another player as copilot. Also first person camera for kerbals on EVA. 

[AlamoVampire]

@DaMachinator look, the long and short of it is as @kiwi1960 KSP isnt KSP with multiplayer.

[Alshain]

KSP is whatever Squad says it is, not any of us in this thread.  Squad said they are doing multiplayer so KSP with multiplayer is KSP.

[AlamoVampire]

this game is too buggy and unpolished for multiplayer. period. in 10 years, it MAY be do able. not this year or next or even in 5 years. so many other things should be and MUST be prioritized before multiplayer.

Edited August 5, 2016 by AlamoVampire

[TheCanadianVendingMachine]

2 hours ago, AlamoVampire said:

this game is too buggy and unpolished for multiplayer. period. in 10 years, it MAY be do able. not this year or next or even in 5 years. so many other things should be and MUST be prioritized before multiplayer.

Why do you care about MP being added to KSP if it doesn't affect you at all? Give 1 reason

[kiwi1960]

5 hours ago, Alshain said:

You said you wanted an "MP realistic game" and now you complain when I reference real life? 

Perhaps you should take a look here

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/realism

Sir, real life is real life... NASA isn't multi player, its how things as complicated as they do actually are... no one person can do what NASA does.... seriously... you offer that as an example as to what multi player means? Seriously? Are you suggesting NASA is a multi player game?

I reality, its a co-operative venture.... that doesn't make it "multi player" in the sense we are discussing. Come on.... give up on it.

And I was playing multi player games... well ... one... long before there was a 'multi player' option in any game.... in actual fact, it was an ultra slow sub hunter game hooked up with two wires between two ZX QL's.... anyhow... I digress...

...I still make the point that KSP will not be KSP with multi player added.... for the multi player version, note... 'version".... they will probably strip some features (warp included) from the game and call it "KSP UNLEASHED" .... meaning its KSP but definitely not the KSP we are talking about.... 

[Red Iron Crown]

I really don't think it's practical to remove warp altogether from multiplayer, that would mean you wouldn't even be able to go to the Mun in a reasonable length play session, and interplanetary stuff would be right out. There's no perfect answer for multiplayer timewarp (essentially any solution involves either waiting or sync issues), but that doesn't mean that no timewarp is better. DMP's approach is likely the least bad compromise.