[1.3.x] Kerbin Side GAP

[drhay53]

1 hour ago, Keniamin said:

Really there must not be 6. I set global restriction to 5 (or this is a bug in the Contract Configurator, though I don't think this is that case). I don't know easy way to reduce it, but you can edit file GameData/ContractPacks/KerbinSideGAP/Groups.cfg and change value of maxSimultaneous = 5 (line 8) to everything you want. Note, however, that this is local solution (if you reinstall/upgrade mod via CKAN or manually, value will be reset to default).
 

I think I was confusing some of the Kerbin Side Jobs contracts with KSGAP contracts. I filtered out the KSJ contracts through the contract filter addon and then lowered that number you mentioned and have been getting a number of contracts from KSGAP more to my liking. thanks!

[Doc Shaftoe]

3 hours ago, Keniamin said:

Oh, beautiful. Yep, I'm interested  Would you mind if I'll add your KCJ and BlueSky logos to the main Kerbin Side GAP repo (and next release of mod, of course)?

Sure! If you ever need help with logos in the future, let me know. I'd be happy to help out.

[theonegalen]

@Keniamin, Kerbal Konstructs and Contract Configurator are both updated for 1.2.2. Do you expect you will update KerbinSide GAP to match the new CC?

[Keniamin]

23 minutes ago, theonegalen said:

@Keniamin, Kerbal Konstructs and Contract Configurator are both updated for 1.2.2. Do you expect you will update KerbinSide GAP to match the new CC?

Unfortunately, Kerbin Side GAP requires not only KK and CC, but also Kerbin Side Jobs (namely, a module from it that checks if certain base exists). When I looked for it last time, it was not available for 1.2.*. May be I better remove dependency on Kerbin Side Jobs and return to old scheme (that does not work with Kerbin Side Skyways, but with complete Kerbin Side must be ok). I'll try to found some time in the coming days to recheck what is the current state.

[theonegalen]

Ah, I see. Thank you for the response.

[BureauJaeger]

2 hours ago, Keniamin said:

Unfortunately, Kerbin Side GAP requires not only KK and CC, but also Kerbin Side Jobs (namely, a module from it that checks if certain base exists). When I looked for it last time, it was not available for 1.2.*. May be I better remove dependency on Kerbin Side Jobs and return to old scheme (that does not work with Kerbin Side Skyways, but with complete Kerbin Side must be ok). I'll try to found some time in the coming days to recheck what is the current state.

I've had this installed for a while and I did fly a couple of missions without any issues. Still, I'd like to see this properly updated. It's so nice to have more reasonable stuff to do with lower tech planes.

I feel the rewards could use some tweaking, well, increasing mainly. If I have understood correctly the Kerbin Side bases have a recovery value associated with them, so you often get only half or so of the price of the plane back. I haven't really looked closely at the numbers but it seems the profits are quite low if you run the missions with more complex builds.

I also have Strategia installed with pilot focus currently active and it boosts the rewards of the regular GAP but doesn't seem to touch the rewards on this mod. Having these be compatible would be great but I think it would have to be done on the contract side of things rather than Strategia itself. Perhaps something you could look into as well?

[Ger_space]

On 9.1.2017 at 9:41 PM, Keniamin said:

Unfortunately, Kerbin Side GAP requires not only KK and CC, but also Kerbin Side Jobs (namely, a module from it that checks if certain base exists). When I looked for it last time, it was not available for 1.2.*. May be I better remove dependency on Kerbin Side Jobs and return to old scheme (that does not work with Kerbin Side Skyways, but with complete Kerbin Side must be ok). I'll try to found some time in the coming days to recheck what is the current state.

 

On 9.1.2017 at 10:26 PM, theonegalen said:

Ah, I see. Thank you for the response.

the module from Kerbin Side Jobs has been integrated into ContractConfigurator some releases ago, so Kerbin Side GAP should be able to run without Kerbin Side Jobs.

[Keniamin]

On ‎09‎.‎01‎.‎2017 at 11:17 PM, theonegalen said:

@Keniamin, Kerbal Konstructs and Contract Configurator are both updated for 1.2.2. Do you expect you will update KerbinSide GAP to match the new CC?

 

4 hours ago, Ger_space said:

the module from Kerbin Side Jobs has been integrated into ContractConfigurator some releases ago, so Kerbin Side GAP should be able to run without Kerbin Side Jobs.

 

Yes, that's true. Great thanks, @nightingale!

I've just released v2.0, natively supporting new ContractConfigurator and KSP v1.2.2. Version will appear in CKAN in a few hours. Unfortunately, there is no actual version of Kerbin Side in CKAN, so anyone have to download and install it manually. But KerbalKonstructs will be a dependency, so need only for Kerbin Side. And also this allows you to select any Kerbin Side package you want, since CC provides bases checks now.

[Ger_space]

14 hours ago, Keniamin said:

 

 

Yes, that's true. Great thanks, @nightingale!

I've just released v2.0, natively supporting new ContractConfigurator and KSP v1.2.2. Version will appear in CKAN in a few hours. Unfortunately, there is no actual version of Kerbin Side in CKAN, so anyone have to download and install it manually. But KerbalKonstructs will be a dependency, so need only for Kerbin Side. And also this allows you to select any Kerbin Side package you want, since CC provides bases checks now.

The next version of Kerbin-Side will show up in CKAN. But no ETA yet, as I need some updates to Kerbal-Konstructs first.

[Keniamin]

On ‎10‎.‎01‎.‎2017 at 3:05 AM, BureauJaeger said:

I've had this installed for a while and I did fly a couple of missions without any issues. Still, I'd like to see this properly updated. It's so nice to have more reasonable stuff to do with lower tech planes.

I feel the rewards could use some tweaking, well, increasing mainly. If I have understood correctly the Kerbin Side bases have a recovery value associated with them, so you often get only half or so of the price of the plane back. I haven't really looked closely at the numbers but it seems the profits are quite low if you run the missions with more complex builds.

I also have Strategia installed with pilot focus currently active and it boosts the rewards of the regular GAP but doesn't seem to touch the rewards on this mod. Having these be compatible would be great but I think it would have to be done on the contract side of things rather than Strategia itself. Perhaps something you could look into as well?

Thank you for your feedback and sorry that I'm answering after too much time. I tried to upgrade mod for new CC as soon as possible, so didn't want to be distracted by other things.

I know about problem with recovering. Actually, there is some correction for this, I added "R * C" to reward of every contract. The problem is that both this values are constants now.

Variable R is for recovering coefficient. Ideally it must be (1 - <launch base refund percent> - <target base recovery percent>). When I introduced this correction, I looked through the bases and put R = 0,2. But really there is a large scatter. When launch refund is 0,2 and recovery factor is 0,75 formula gives 0,05 (you'll get back 95% of aircraft cost for such contract, so I have to return you in reward only the last 5%). But then launch refund is 0,05 and recovery factor is 0,6 formula gives 0,35 (I must return 35%). Average is really 0.2, but in money 5% and 35% is a huge difference. Fix for this is obvious: I may take not single average value, but real refund and recovery factors from Kerbin Side config. Simple idea, but requires a bit of routine work to grab all this values and put them to my code. I'm planning to include this in the next release.

Variable C is for launch cost, and this one is more complex. The problem is that reward must be known when contract is offered, so I have no chance to know real cost of your launch from the future. I just built some vehicles for every type of contract, which must be enough to complete contracts of this type, and use their average cost as approximate launch cost for all contracts from this type. So it's a kind of expert assessment, that may be wrong. It's better to use some real statistics. If you have such statistics (for example, .craft files of vehicles that you actually used to complete Kerbin Side GAP contracts), please share it with me and I'll try to correct my suppositions about launch cost.

And what about Strategia: I've never heard about this mod before your post, so I don't know how to integrate with it. But I also think it must be done on my side (if possible). I'll try to take a look what can be done here. However, I don't think I have enough time to do this right now. May be I'll have some after a couple of weeks.

[Thetaobera]

The mod isn't working for me. Have landed at the waypoint. It says the passenger is on board, but won't recognize being at the waypoint and not sure how to disembark any passengers as the kerbal for the mission is listed as on board by CC but not physically there .

http://imgur.com/jzJUhGz

 

[Keniamin]

11 hours ago, Thetaobera said:

The mod isn't working for me. Have landed at the waypoint. It says the passenger is on board, but won't recognize being at the waypoint and not sure how to disembark any passengers as the kerbal for the mission is listed as on board by CC but not physically there .

http://imgur.com/jzJUhGz

 

When the passengers are really aboard the whole block "Have all passengers aboard" must be green and collapsed (with no list of passengers under it). So CC really does not recognize passengers aboard, but highlighting as if it was true. Looks strange indeed. May be a bug in CC or in my contracts. Do you have a save game at this moment? May be you can send me .sfs file somehow, I'll try to load it and check the situation in all details?

UPD:
Checked it by myself, really looks like a bug in CC. @nightingale, can you take a look on this, please? http://imgur.com/a/sM2wE

Edited January 21, 2017 by Keniamin

[Thetaobera]

Thanks for looking. Your screenshot gave me a laugh.

[BureauJaeger]

On 18.1.2017 at 11:54 PM, Keniamin said:

Thank you for your feedback and sorry that I'm answering after too much time. I tried to upgrade mod for new CC as soon as possible, so didn't want to be distracted by other things.

I know about problem with recovering. Actually, there is some correction for this, I added "R * C" to reward of every contract. The problem is that both this values are constants now.

Variable R is for recovering coefficient. Ideally it must be (1 - <launch base refund percent> - <target base recovery percent>). When I introduced this correction, I looked through the bases and put R = 0,2. But really there is a large scatter. When launch refund is 0,2 and recovery factor is 0,75 formula gives 0,05 (you'll get back 95% of aircraft cost for such contract, so I have to return you in reward only the last 5%). But then launch refund is 0,05 and recovery factor is 0,6 formula gives 0,35 (I must return 35%). Average is really 0.2, but in money 5% and 35% is a huge difference. Fix for this is obvious: I may take not single average value, but real refund and recovery factors from Kerbin Side config. Simple idea, but requires a bit of routine work to grab all this values and put them to my code. I'm planning to include this in the next release.

Variable C is for launch cost, and this one is more complex. The problem is that reward must be known when contract is offered, so I have no chance to know real cost of your launch from the future. I just built some vehicles for every type of contract, which must be enough to complete contracts of this type, and use their average cost as approximate launch cost for all contracts from this type. So it's a kind of expert assessment, that may be wrong. It's better to use some real statistics. If you have such statistics (for example, .craft files of vehicles that you actually used to complete Kerbin Side GAP contracts), please share it with me and I'll try to correct my suppositions about launch cost.

And what about Strategia: I've never heard about this mod before your post, so I don't know how to integrate with it. But I also think it must be done on my side (if possible). I'll try to take a look what can be done here. However, I don't think I have enough time to do this right now. May be I'll have some after a couple of weeks.

I totally forgot to reply to this earlier, sorry! Thanks for the explanation, that's an interesting system then. And I can see how the biggest variable comes from the launch cost, since the part costs in different mods can vary quite wildly. I can't say I have a huge amount of data about the typical costs though, I've only done some of the shorter routes with a few tourists so far, and the small passenger planes and one sort of multipurpose helicopter I've used in the contracts cost around 20000 funds each. I haven't built any bigger passenger planes in the current career yet, but some of the my science-laden bomber types vary from about 40000 to 90000 funds if I remember correctly, so I'd imagine passenger liners with generally fewer but more costly parts stay in that kind of price range too. From what I've seen in the offered contracts the rewards for the bigger hauls seem to be better in line with the costs, but say a short trip to Jeb's Island Resort with only a pair of tourists and with an expensive helo might even go in the red. But I'll see if I can give a better assessment once I start noodling around with some jet airliners.

With the big amount of mods I have installed I doubt craft files will be of much use, but here's a picture of a pair of my go-to island hoppers for the early game tourist flights. These aren't super complex builds but I do use more parts than functionally needed of course. Then again players who enjoy these contracts probably like to stitch together more part-heavy aircraft in general.

[Keniamin]

22 hours ago, BureauJaeger said:

With the big amount of mods I have installed I doubt craft files will be of much use, but here's a picture of a pair of my go-to island hoppers for the early game tourist flights. These aren't super complex builds but I do use more parts than functionally needed of course. Then again players who enjoy these contracts probably like to stitch together more part-heavy aircraft in general.

OH! It's absolutely awesome, I think  And yes, I see that you have some mods. I can determine KAX, of course, but not only. For example, these interesting blue parts is not from KAX, am I right? And the cabin of the first plane, apparently.
I would be glad to see your list of mods, at least approximate. To setup some of them for me, firstly And to assess launch cost better, as an addition.
And if you have screenshot of your helicopter I would be glad to see it too, not to improve my mod, just for me. Helicopters is my weak side, I tried to build some, but most of them were quite... let say "unusable".

[Beetlecat]

47 minutes ago, Keniamin said:

OH! It's absolutely awesome, I think  And yes, I see that you have some mods. I can determine KAX, of course, but not only. For example, these interesting blue parts is not from KAX, am I right? And the cabin of the first plane, apparently.
I would be glad to see your list of mods, at least approximate. To setup some of them for me, firstly And to assess launch cost better, as an addition.
And if you have screenshot of your helicopter I would be glad to see it too, not to improve my mod, just for me. Helicopters is my weak side, I tried to build some, but most of them were quite... let say "unusable".

Guessing the blue sections are rendered procedural parts? @BureauJaeger can confirm?

[BureauJaeger]

Some mods indeed. But not KAX actually, might have to add that too. Here's a quick screenie of the mod folder. It keeps evolving almost daily though.

The plane/helo building essentials for me at the moment are SXT (most of the first plane in the previous pic), AirplanePlus (much of that second plane), KRX for additional helo engines, B9 parts and wings, PWings and especially Procedural Parts for the smoother fuselage pieces (the blue parts of those planes as @Beetlecat said). Lots and lots of other mods too. And a few additional Tweakscale patches on top of those.

I showed this one in the KRX thread a while back but here's the helo I've spent way too many hours tweaking. I've probably changed something after taking this screenshot as well. It's amphibious for all those crash landings coast guard rescue missions, and the 6 Kerbal capacity is useful for the tourist contracts too.

Center of mass is the critical thing with helos I've found, it has to sit nicely below the thrust of the main engine and as low as possible for any kind of predictable behaviour. In practice that means clipping the main fuel tank(s) inside the fuselage (or cockpit in that one). RCS Build Aid is helpful in placing the wet and dry CoM on the same spot and keeping any unwanted torque minimal.

[Thetaobera]

Ok I found the problem. The passenger for the flight is spawning at the destination rather than KSC.http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198050235870/screenshots/

 

Edit: Wow user error on my part. Did not read contract... pick up was at that airport. The kerbal was in the control tower.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Thetaobera
user error

[Keniamin]

Kerbin Side GAP 2.1 released. Main changes: more honest calculation of amount of funds that player loose during the launch/recovery procedure (better reward when bases have small recovery factor); integration with Strategia.
@BureauJaeger hope you'll like it

[BureauJaeger]

1 hour ago, Keniamin said:

Kerbin Side GAP 2.1 released. Main changes: more honest calculation of amount of funds that player loose during the launch/recovery procedure (better reward when bases have small recovery factor); integration with Strategia.
@BureauJaeger hope you'll like it

That's awesome news, thank you for the update! Been a bit busy lately IRL but I'm gonna try the new version out as soon as possible.

[Daniel Prates]

@Keniamin, CKAN exibiths only a 1.1.3 version of this mod as the most current. Is it all the same, or should I necessarilly get it elsewhere to have good results? With the CKAN download I experienced some weirdnesses: a contract was impossible to fullfill because it gave me less tourists to carry than missions specifications, for instance. In another time, a contract required me to carry this specific kerbal, but not only he was not available in the SPH to be loaded in, but also when I launched the craft, he appeared... falling from the sky! 

So I ask wether I absolutelly have to use some other version of this mod, other than the CKAN-available. Also any other guidelines would be appreciated!

Edited February 26, 2017 by Daniel Prates

[Keniamin]

8 hours ago, Daniel Prates said:

CKAN exibiths only a 1.1.3 version of this mod as the most current.

What version of CKAN do you have and what version of KSP is installed? Are the CKAN bases fresh?
I use CKAN v1.22.1 with KSP v1.2.2 and immediately after "Refresh" I can see Kerbin Side GAP of version 2.1 in my mod list.

What about a kerbal from the sky. It's okay that kerbal is not available in SPH, because business and service flights implies actually picking up kerbals in place (somewhere in the world). After accepting a contract, you can see location of specified kerbals in Tracking Center (though can not get control of them until one of your vessels became close enough to their position, absolutely like in "Rescue kerbal from the surface" stock contracts). For service flight this position are close to runway, for business flights it may be somewhere more or less far from departure base.
And, of course, they must no fall from the sky. But it is a common bug, rather than yours. I tried to make them staying on the surface, and it was so in older KSP. With 1.2 release there appeared a bug (or a feature?), that makes kerbals spawn high above the surface and fall. I tried to fix it via selecting another starting altitude, but suffered a crushing defeat :) Well, actually, I know a way to avoid falling, but then some other bugs appear, that are more annoying from my point of view. So I selected less badness and decided to let this falling be.

[Daniel Prates]

1 hour ago, Keniamin said:

What version of CKAN do you have and what version of KSP is installed? Are the CKAN bases fresh?
I use CKAN v1.22.1 with KSP v1.2.2 and immediately after "Refresh" I can see Kerbin Side GAP of version 2.1 in my mod list.

What about a kerbal from the sky. It's okay that kerbal is not available in SPH, because business and service flights implies actually picking up kerbals in place (somewhere in the world). After accepting a contract, you can see location of specified kerbals in Tracking Center (though can not get control of them until one of your vessels became close enough to their position, absolutely like in "Rescue kerbal from the surface" stock contracts). For service flight this position are close to runway, for business flights it may be somewhere more or less far from departure base.
And, of course, they must no fall from the sky. But it is a common bug, rather than yours. I tried to make them staying on the surface, and it was so in older KSP. With 1.2 release there appeared a bug (or a feature?), that makes kerbals spawn high above the surface and fall. I tried to fix it via selecting another starting altitude, but suffered a crushing defeat :) Well, actually, I know a way to avoid falling, but then some other bugs appear, that are more annoying from my point of view. So I selected less badness and decided to let this falling be.

Hahaha! Laughing hard here. Its a good thing I have "eva parachutes". Good for the kerbal, that is! 

Ok, I understood. The other bug is not normal then? The charter mission was to carry 39 nameless tourists. There were 38 at the SPH, making it impossible to fullfill it. 

However clearly I am using a troublesome version of the mod. Sorry my asking, its just that apparently some mods stopped being updated since 1.1.3 as apparently it remains current. Since no newer version appears in CKAN I assumed it was the case. It never occured me that my CKAN version could be old! I'll check. Thanks for the tip! And kudos on the great work.

Finally, a tip of my own: can't there be a configurable slider somewhere so that the contracts rewards are tweaked a bit?

[Keniamin]

54 minutes ago, Daniel Prates said:

However clearly I am using a troublesome version of the mod. Sorry my asking, its just that apparently some mods stopped being updated since 1.1.3 as apparently it remains current.

Well, actually my mod depends strongly on ContractConfigurator only, all other dependencies are optional. So if you use CC v1.16 or more you can install latest release of Kerbin Side GAP (2.1 at the moment) from here and it is expected to work fine.

54 minutes ago, Daniel Prates said:

The other bug is not normal then? The charter mission was to carry 39 nameless tourists. There were 38 at the SPH, making it impossible to fullfill it. Yes.

Yes, not normal. But I've never seen something like this before, so no ideas. If you'll reproduce it with latest version of mod – please, make a save game and send it to me. I'll try to find out what is going on.

55 minutes ago, Daniel Prates said:

Finally, a tip of my own: can't there be a configurable slider somewhere so that the contracts rewards are tweaked a bit?

It is not a tip for me, actually, because all basic features (particularly, whole GUI) are from ContractConfigurator. My mod provides only contracts themselves. But if you want to make some rewards more acceptable, again, look at the latest version of my mod. I've revised some aspects of reward calculations there to make them more stable. And also added an integration with Strategia (see discussion higher in this forum thread).

[Daniel Prates]

Ok, great! Many thanks!