Numbers vs tech?

[InterCity]

Hello, guys.

I know that this question has been asked elsewhere countless times, but I haven't seen it (yet) on these forums. I just feel this could be something you could be interested in, so I ask this anyway.

Basically:

Let's suppose that somewhere (in a galaxy, far far away  ), there is a lonely planet. It's inhabited by, of all things, elves. Or some race that is sentient, has just moved past the tribal stage, is very religious and fully devoted to living in harmony with nature. They might live in wooden shacks, but they never take more than they need. Their deity has a place in everything they do, the high priest (or priestess) being the head member of their society. Although they pose like they value justice and love above all, they act like your average medieval government, with the nobility being rich and lavish, all titles being hereditary, and the commoners having an extremely hard life.

But they're not alone in the universe.

Another race has developed FTL travel, and by the time of the events, they're boldly venturing to the edges of their travel range. Their main concern is expanding their empire over everything they can, much like post-1492 european powers, but not necessarily destroying everything in the process. They do not strive to eradicate their subjects' culture, they only want them to recognise their supremacy. One particularly intrepid group of explorers has started an outpost of the elves' planet, failing to detect the natives at long range (No radio tech), and not noticing the fields until it's too late. They didn't bring along the "Big guns", only small reconnaissance aircraft, personnel transporters and personal (beam) weapons, as well as a plethora of mining equipment, habitation containers and other colony stuff. Inevitably, the two groups meet. They don't share a language, their belief system is different, the second race values the good of space above individual good (e.g. "It's OK to destroy anything, as long as it allows to create an equal or greater value of something else"). However, their bodies are remarkably fragile and prone to diseases. They always wear suits with controlled environment, except when aboard their ships or their vehicles. 

As you have probably noticed, It's very similar to Avatar in many regards. The differences are that the elves (Na'vi) are way more numerous than they ever were in the original Avatar, they're capable tactical planners. All in all, even though they probably cannot tackle the invaders head-on on a tribal scale, they're more than able to "Zerg" them if allied with others. The invaders don't know it yet, but they're not bloodthirsty and will not attack until being attacked themselves. It's not Avatar because neither side has purely good or evil intentions, no one aims to destroy the other (at first), it's basically a vast, but primitive population versus a tiny, but advanced one. 

The question is: What would happen, starting from the moment of touchdown of the first invaders' recon shuttle.

To make things more interesting, you can throw magic (Let's set the rules as in "The Lord of the Rings", with only privileged few able to control it) into the fray under the elves' control, with or without answering the original scenario.

 

TL; DR: Elves vs. Terran. Who wins? 

Edited March 15, 2016 by InterCity
Typo

[Spaceception]

Just now, InterCity said:

Hello, guys.

I know that this question has been asked elsewhere countless times, but I haven't seen it (yet) on these forums. I just feel this could be something you could be interested in, so I ask this anyway.

Basically:

Let's suppose that somewhere (in a galaxy, far far away  ), there is a lonely planet. It's inhabited by, of all things, elves. Or some race that is sentient, has just moved past the tribal stage, is very religious and fully devoted to living in harmony with nature. They might live in wooden shacks, but they never take more than they need. Their deity has a place in everything they do, the high priest (or priestess) being the head member of their society. Although they pose like they value justice and love above all, they act like your average medieval government, with the nobility being rich and lavish, all titles being hereditary, and the commoners having an extremely hard life.

But they're not alone in the universe.

Another race has developed FTL travel, and by the time of the events, they're boldly venturing to the edges of their travel range. Their main concern is expanding their empire over everything they can, much like post-1492 european powers, but not necessarily destroying everything in the process. They do not strive to eradicate their subjects' culture, they only want them to recognise their supremacy. One particularly intrepid group of explorers has started an outpost of the elves' planet, failing to detect the natives at long range (No radio tech), and not noticing the fields until it's too late. They didn't bring along the "Big guns", only small reconnaissance aircraft, personnel transporters and personal (beam) weapons, as well as a plethora of mining equipment, habitation containers and other colony stuff. Inevitably, the two groups meet. They don't share a language, their belief system is different, the second race values the good of space above individual good (e.g. "It's OK to destroy anything, as long as it allows to create an equal or greater value of something else"). However, their bodies are remarkably fragile and prone to diseases. They always wear suits with controlled environment, except when aboard their ships or their vehicles. 

As you have probably noticed, It's very similar to Avatar in many regards. The differences are that the elves (Na'vi) are way more numerous than they ever were in the original Avatar, they're capable tactical planners. All in all, even though they probably cannot tackle the invaders head-on on a tribal scale, they're more than able to "Zerg" them if allied with others. The invaders don't know it yet, but they're not bloodthirsty and will not attack until being attacked themselves. It's not Avatar because neither side has purely good or evil intentions, no one aims to destroy the other (at first), it's basically a vast, but primitive population versus a tiny, but advanced one. 

The question is: What would happen, starting from the moment of touchdown of the first invaders' recon shuttle.

To make things more interesting, you can throw magic (Let's set the rules as in "The Lord of the Rings", with only privileged few able to control it) into the fray under the elves' control, with or without answering the original scenario.

 

TL; DR: Elves vs. Terran. Who wins? 

I see 2 scenarios,

1 The FTL race could leave the planet, and protect it until they're advanced enough to join their ranks

2 The FTL race teaches the elf race their culture, and within a 100 years the elves are capable of traveling across their solar system by themselves, and across interstellar space with the FTL race

[RainDreamer]

Magic? I am sure the advanced race will research that extensively, and likely will contact in peace merely to learn about it. Whatever the planet inhabitants do is not going to be their concerns.

[GeneralVeers]

Along with advanced technology, generally, comes advanced knowledge in the art of war. The FTL race is likely to be familiar with "sheer numbers" tactics, and will know how to defeat said tactics.

The FTL race as described in the OP has two other key advantages: better recon, and faster movement of troops. The race may not always be to the swift nor the battle to the strong, but the swift and strong are the ones you want to bet on.

So I would say the FTL race is imba. GG!

[Bill Phil]

Depends. 

If you have FTL, I'm going to assume that you also have ftl communications. Aliens call in reinforcements. They win.

[Hary R]

If war is unavoidable then:

The FTL one will win:

1-  they have better communication device and can travel long distance in time that the native one can't even imagine (aircraft).

2- They certainly know that they are outnumbered so they will not engage in a frontal confrontation, they will use a guerrilla strategy. Do they have air personnel transport? If so then they can strike far beyond front line and return in the security of the sky, unless the native have some kind of aerial vehicle.

3- They can send a message home to call for reinforcement.

 

 

Edited March 16, 2016 by Hary R

[RainDreamer]

The FTL race can also just launch asteroid at FTL speed from space. The planet wouldn't stand a chance. But they have no reason to do that.

[razark]

The less advanced race just needs to make the war as expensive as possible for the invader, then wait for the anti-war protests to collapse the political will of the invaders to continue the war.

[InterCity]

5 hours ago, Bill Phil said:

Depends. 

If you have FTL, I'm going to assume that you also have ftl communications. Aliens call in reinforcements. They win.

Oh, I forgot to mention. They do have FTL comms, but slow FTL. Any help would be about two years away - too far away to reinforce the current outpost.

[Hary R]

10 minutes ago, InterCity said:

Oh, I forgot to mention. They do have FTL comms, but slow FTL. Any help would be about two years away - too far away to reinforce the current outpost.

Well, outnumber, without reinforcement before years that also mean no resupply before  two years. This is a game changer, the FTL guy are here for a tough fight.

If they still have a space ship, they can have a safe mobile base in orbit and lunch military operation from there and have a chance do do a lot of damage and may be enough to break the locals moral. But if all they have is a ground base, soon or later it will be overwhelmed. Holding it for two year is impossible even against sward/bow and arrow army.

[RainDreamer]

Well, I don't know why they have to fight each other in the first place, considering that the advanced civilization, if needed can hide themselves using technology, either scare people away or locate themselves in virtually unreachable location (top of mountains, for example, where they can simply ascend with something like a helicopter/teleporter instead of scaling up. It is one thing to be an invader, where you tread on unfamiliar territory while the enemies ambush you with guerilla tactics - this is how many disadvantaged armies managed to win unfavourable battles. But it is another thing when the FTL only need to hold themselves there for 2 years before reinforcement comes. They would hunker down in a far off area, surviving with their tech (terraforming, or simply more advanced agricultural knowledge), and defend themselves. Considering that the civilizations on the world is still on the monarchy period, the introduction of a passive faction isn't going to trigger a worldwide aggression anyway. Even if one of the kingdom has a reason to attack the FTL race, they would need to move a considerable force to try to overwhelm them, while leaving their borders open for other kingdoms to attack. It will just be a bunch of kingdom watching, carefully, what the weird people out of nowhere up in that mountain are doing, and if they do nothing looking threatening, then I don't think they would send an army for no reason.

[InterCity]

1 hour ago, RainDreamer said:

Well, I don't know why they have to fight each other in the first place...

They don't have to. I never thought a war was inevitable, it's the last resort for everyone involved. I thought more about their interaction: what will they do when they discover each other? Will they collide and clash? If so, how? How will this introduction of foreign tech/magic change them?

[StrandedonEarth]

On 3/15/2016 at 11:40 AM, InterCity said:

but they never take more than they need.

with the nobility being rich and lavish

These two lines are contradictory. A lavish lifestyle would by definition be taking more than they need. The main question is how violent are these elves? How do they react to strangers?

[GeneralVeers]

16 hours ago, razark said:

The less advanced race just needs to make the war as expensive as possible for the invader, then wait for the anti-war protests to collapse the political will of the invaders to continue the war.

This is dependent on the "invader" having a society in which such protests even exist.

Right here on Earth, there are many cultures in which they don't. Take a casual stroll into the realm of sci-fi, and such protests exist pretty much nowhere. They're basically impossible, because they would make for extremely short movies with no box office take. (now you've got me imagining Independence Day 2 ending with the aliens cancelling the second invasion due to a protest.......)

[Hary R]

14 hours ago, InterCity said:

They don't have to. I never thought a war was inevitable, it's the last resort for everyone involved. I thought more about their interaction: what will they do when they discover each other? Will they collide and clash? If so, how? How will this introduction of foreign tech/magic change them?

Our own history have shown some possible scenario,

1- The FTL on are like the European of the colonial time i.e. "we are here to claim this land as our. What! You were here before us, we don't care". This will lead to a war. Think of the spanish conquistadores.

2- If they are more like us now days, I remember about the "sentinel island", we just observe them from afar and try to not interact with them. They can do that to, observe the elves from a far hidden behind their technology study them and maybe try to communicate after a while (they are also not willing to bring or be infected by some nasty virus i guess).

This is two of the many possible scenario i can think of if the FTL one detect the elves first.

For the other way around. I guess all those magical technology will freak out the first to see the aliens. Then again, it depend on how the lord of the elves will react, how their beliefs thought them to react. Again our own history shown us some example, some will just try to destroy the magical beast at all coast while will just try to understand what are those weird creature in their strange outfit.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Hary R

[kerbiloid]

Terrans will help the good elves against the bad elves, to defeat and enslave them.
Then terrans will struggle for the rights of the defeated ones to control the winners.

Edited March 17, 2016 by kerbiloid

[Nuke]

i figure it would play out a lot like the film "zulu dawn"

Edited March 17, 2016 by Nuke

[RainDreamer]

For those who are interested, we have a manga with similar premise called Gate:  http://mangafox.me/manga/gate_jietai_kare_no_chi_nite_kaku_tatakeri/

Just that instead of a visitor from space, the meeting was with the current day Japan and its self defense force, JSDF. One day a magical portal open up in Japan and an empire, similar to the roman empire just with magic and mystical creatures, attack them in an attempt to conquer new lands, however the JSDF with the vastly superior military technology and knowledge, push them back, through the gate, occupied the gate and becomes an active force influencing the world there.

They bring attack jets to fight with dragons...

*Disclaimer* The manga is a seinen manga aimed at mature audience, and thus deal with various ugly sides of war too, especially war in middle age culture. You have been warned.

Edited March 22, 2016 by RainDreamer

[Hary R]

21 hours ago, RainDreamer said:

For those who are interested, we have a manga with similar premise called Gate:  http://mangafox.me/manga/gate_jietai_kare_no_chi_nite_kaku_tatakeri/

Just that instead of a visitor from space, the meeting was with the current day Japan and its self defense force, JSDF. One day a magical portal open up in Japan and an empire, similar to the roman empire just with magic and mystical creatures, attack them in an attempt to conquer new lands, however with the vastly superior military technology and knowledge, push them back, through the gate, occupied the gate and becomes an active force influencing the world there.

They bring attack jets to fight with dragons...

*Disclaimer* The manga is a seinen manga aimed at mature audience, and thus deal with various ugly sides of war too, especially war in middle age culture. You have been warned.

Nice one, I like the premise.

But a well equipped modern army (Ok JSDF is not exactly an army but that's beside the point) with a lot of supply will crush any medieval army easily no matter the number difference. The scenarios here is different in that that they are ill equipped and don't get resupply or reinforcement, their technological advance will still give them an edge but when they will run out of bullet, thing will get bad (if a war occur of course)