PSA: Don't poke the bears.. (Translation: Don't pester the modmakers (for updates))

[Stone Blue]

Flame me if you will...

I see a lot of repeated posts asking for 1.1 updates on a lot of Release threads... Before posting to a thread, just keep in mind that the current 1.1 is just a PRE-release... And it hasnt even been out a full 3 DAYS yet...

Its probably a good idea to actually READ the last few posts on the thread to see if someone else has already requested updates, or if the dev has already posted comments about an update... Also, hover over the dev's name, and check when they were last on the forums... I would imagine anyone who has been on within the last month certainly knows 1.1 has dropped, (or last they knew, was CLOSE to dropping...) So I would imagine there would be no need to start poking I mean asking for updates... If you feel you NEED to make some sort of request or comment, please do so nicely...

Mods, feel free to move or delete, or lock this if needed

 

Edited April 2, 2016 by Stone Blue
Clarified the title.

[Ghosty141]

I don't get it problem most people have. I program in my free time as well and once had a mod for GTA which I maintained too. When there were updates I just either wrote in the thread: "Broken atm, update soon" or I'd reply to the guys that it'll probably take (insert time period) to fix the current issues. If they'd write it in the thread there wouldn't be anyone asking for the 1.1 update, but the lack of information just makes people ask questions, which is totally reasonable. 

And when it comes to the prerelease thing: I haven't seen a single post along the lines of: update now, update or riot. It's mostly just simple questions, especially when the creator hasn't been on the forum for over a week. 

[Kyrt Malthorn]

Devs have lives.  Many have day jobs during the week.  And many don't even have access to the pre-release.

Remember, this is not the finalized new version, it's a mass bug hunt for the STOCK GAME.

Pre-release players, please focus on reporting bugs in stock instead of mods.  The finalized 1.1 may break mods updated to the pre-release, even.  (Which are already labeled compatible with 1.1 .... ooohh boy.)

[Stone Blue]

14 minutes ago, Kyrt Malthorn said:

The finalized 1.1 may break mods updated to the pre-release, even.  (Which are already labeled compatible with 1.1 .... ooohh boy.)

Yupp... lol

Oh, and if possible, and not too much trouble, mod developers, could you mention upon pre-1.1 releases, backward compatibility?... At least with 1.0.5? Thanx!

24 minutes ago, Ghosty141 said:

I don't get it problem most people have. I program in my free time as well and once had a mod for GTA which I maintained too. When there were updates I just either wrote in the thread: "Broken atm, update soon" or I'd reply to the guys that it'll probably take (insert time period) to fix the current issues. If they'd write it in the thread there wouldn't be anyone asking for the 1.1 update, but the lack of information just makes people ask questions, which is totally reasonable. 

And when it comes to the prerelease thing: I haven't seen a single post along the lines of: update now, update or riot. It's mostly just simple questions, especially when the creator hasn't been on the forum for over a week. 

I get what you're saying, and where you're coming from... And yes, there are lots of times where I wish devs were more organized and more forthcoming with info regarding updates & releases... But...??

And all month, I have already seen repeated "where's update for 1.1?"/"will this be updated for 1.1?" posts, all WITHIN a couple posts of each other, on release threads... Its like, Dang!, you cant scroll up even a couple posts to see someone already poked the bear, before you go and do the exact same??...AND this was EVEN BEFORE 1.1 pre-release even dropped!!... so yeah, it IS happening...

And if ANYONE riots, I would expect it to be the Bears Devs... LOL ... Which would be bad for ALL of us...

Edited April 1, 2016 by Stone Blue

[Manwith Noname]

I see both sides. It's not a problem to ask nicely..."Do you plan to do any updates for the 1.1 pre release?". The issue is the constant one line "Update for 1.1 please" and the repetition of the same comments when they are in the post or two above.

[sgiffy]

As far as I'm concerned they can take as much time as they want to update. I'm not paying them any more so I got no right to gripe. 

But, it is nice when they give an update with an expected ETA or range. That way I know if I should be checking frequently or should forget about it for a while. 

[HebaruSan]

Is there a forum rule against posts that are completely redundant with ones that have already been answered? It would be nice if the modder or anyone else on the thread could just report such posts to have them deleted.

[Manwith Noname]

It would be nicer if every time someone committed the offence their computer slapped them round the face. I just checked out a profile for someone who simply wrote, "1.1 compatibility?" in a thread. The entire page was near enough the same short one line comment from multiple threads. I facepalmed so hard I am now bruised.

[Stone Blue]

8 minutes ago, HebaruSan said:

Is there a forum rule against posts that are completely redundant with ones that have already been answered? It would be nice if the modder or anyone else on the thread could just report such posts to have them deleted.

I sometimes find myself wishing there were a "Dis-like" button...

[Vanamonde]

As a moderator, I can tell you that this is a serious problem. Even a polite request for an update can start to feel like harassment if it's the umpteenth one the mod-maker has received. While encouragement is nice, it would be better to take the form of "I really like this mod" rather than many repeats of "please update this mod." You can trust that mod-makers want to update, and they will, when they have the time. They are, after all, unpaid volunteers with other claims on their time, such as jobs and families. 

If it gets bad, mod-makers can and have reported such posts as harassment, and if it gets really bad, we can and have deleted and infracted posts about it. 

[Snark]

I wholeheartedly support the sentiment expressed in this OP.

1.1 is a major change, not just for the Unity engine but for a large amount of internal rearranging that Squad did for the API that mod authors have to work with.  Virtually any plug-in that has actual code in it is going to need an update to work in 1.1.  Mod authors know this, and they know that they will have to do some work in order to make their stuff functional in 1.1.  How long it will take will depend on the mod (some will be easier to update than others) and on the mod author's schedule (they're doing this for free, in their spare time, to give you this cool stuff out of the goodness of their hearts, and the author may or may not have time to drop everything and update the mod right away).

So if you have any questions around any mod with respect to 1.1, here's a handy FAQ:

• "Does the 1.0.5 version of <mod> work in 1.1?"  Probably not.
• "When will a 1.1-compatible version of <mod> be ready?"  It'll be ready whenever the mod author has the time and inclination to update it.
• "So how will I know when it's ready?"  When the mod author tells you that it is (for example, by posting an announcement in the mod's thread).

In other words... just take it easy, please?  Mod threads are great places for giving feedback (about how much you love the mod, or what features you'd like to see, or whatever), or for asking questions about how to use the mod.  However, asking for updates is typically not helpful.

 

...All of that said, this isn't really about an add-on release per se, so moving the thread to Add-on Discussions.

[goldenpsp]

3 hours ago, Ghosty141 said:

I don't get it problem most people have. I program in my free time as well and once had a mod for GTA which I maintained too. When there were updates I just either wrote in the thread: "Broken atm, update soon" or I'd reply to the guys that it'll probably take (insert time period) to fix the current issues. If they'd write it in the thread there wouldn't be anyone asking for the 1.1 update, but the lack of information just makes people ask questions, which is totally reasonable. 

And when it comes to the prerelease thing: I haven't seen a single post along the lines of: update now, update or riot. It's mostly just simple questions, especially when the creator hasn't been on the forum for over a week. 

For a normal release I don't necessarily disagree.  But when even polite requests drop  days, or even in some cases hours after the Pre-release comes out goes a bit far.  It is completely reasonable for modders to wait for the official release, especially if their modding time is limited.

[RoverDude]

Yep, be nice to the modders - a lot of them are busy.

Regarding compatibility - for my stuff at least, it was enough of a difference that almost everything is not backwards compatible (definitely not anything with wheels, and other bits changed).  And it's good to get the kinks worked out with my own set of pre-releases, since I figured waiting till the official 1.1 release date would mean getting a ton more bug reports for my mods on day zero (naturally your mileage may vary).  It's also exposing some interesting issues with things like CKAN, Curse, etc. along the way.

[Kerbart]

11 hours ago, Snark said:

1.1 is a major change, not just for the Unity engine but for a large amount of internal rearranging that Squad did for the API that mod authors have to work with.  Virtually any plug-in that has actual code in it is going to need an update to work in 1.1. 

Exactly! Aside from the occasional lunatic* who has already released a 1.1 version of their mod I don't expect serious work to be started until the final version has been released. No good deed goes unpunished and if the final release breaks the prelease 1.1 mod there will only be more pitchforks and torches.

Let's all be reasonable and have some patience.

* Yes, of course I'm more than happy to have Better Burntime in the 1.1. pre-release

 

[steve_v]

Is it just me or is this thread (or an official version thereof, from the scariest moderator around) a prime candidate for a sticky?

[Stone Blue]

Another thing I've been seeing, is lots of mods that havent been updated since 1.0.2 or so, AND the authors havent been on the forums in as much as several months, are starting to pop back into the forums...

The point is, once talk of 1.1 was released, it was known BIG changes were coming, meaning mod breaking changes... I bet lots of devs decided not to bother updating for 1.0.4/.5, and to just wait for 1.1... Who knows, many probably just needed breaks from modding...

But with 1.1 now starting to actually make an appearance, I bet you will see many come back from these long hiatuses... So yeah, dont assume just because an author hasnt been on since last summer, that a mod is dead...

And as others have pointed out, the 1.1 pre-release is meant as a chance for users to find and give input on bugs, IN THE STOCK GAME... So dont expect miracles from authors... If stock is buggy, then mods will likely still be buggy until well after the full 1.1 release drops...

Edited April 1, 2016 by Stone Blue

[RoverDude]

2 hours ago, Kerbart said:

Exactly! Aside from the occasional lunatic* who has already released a 1.1 version of their mod I don't expect serious work to be started until the final version has been released. No good deed goes unpunished and if the final release breaks the prelease 1.1 mod there will only be more pitchforks and torches.

Let's all be reasonable and have some patience.

* Yes, of course I'm more than happy to have Better Burntime in the 1.1. pre-release

 

Nah, not really lunacy   We need stuff checked with 1.1 as well, and I (for one) have no issue reacting to any fixed issues in the pre-release that mess with my mod fixes.  Tho I do agree that 1.1 stock testing should be the main priority, and a lot of folks are waiting for 1.1 to stabilize - so this time we'll likely have two waves of updates.  Good times...

[Snark]

4 hours ago, Kerbart said:

Exactly! Aside from the occasional lunatic* who has already released a 1.1 version of their mod I don't expect serious work to be started until the final version has been released. No good deed goes unpunished and if the final release breaks the prelease 1.1 mod there will only be more pitchforks and torches.

For the most part I agree with you.  There's also the fact that the real purpose of the pre-release is to flush bugs out of the stock game, and if players are playing heavily modded KSP, the value of their feedback and bug reports goes down.  So I actually considered deliberately not updating BetterBurnTime and my other mods until official 1.1 came out.

On the other hand... moddability bugs in the stock game are bugs, too.  By forcing myself to update my mods early, I stubbed my toe on some stuff that made my job (as a modder) harder than it should be.  And by reporting those issues, I was able to give Squad the feedback they needed to fix those problems with their APIs.  (Squad devs are awesome, BTW.  I never cease to be amazed at how responsive they are.)

These are problems which have no impact on the stock game experience at all (so regular testing by game players wouldn't uncover them), but would affect anybody trying to write a mod, and would make their lives more difficult.

So there's some value in trying out mods in the pre-release, within reason, though I hope (probably in vain) that most KSP folks playing the pre-release aren't modding it too heavily.

[Vanamonde]

6 hours ago, steve_v said:

Is it just me or is this thread (or an official version thereof, from the scariest moderator around) a prime candidate for a sticky?

Agreed. Can't vouch for my scariness, but it's done. 

[Svm420]

1 minute ago, Vanamonde said:

Agreed. Can't vouch for my scariness, but it's done. 

But your posting from somewhere inside my house . Thanks for the sticky!

[Polnoch]

Please update rules, and add ban of any questions about time of update. Current rules can be used ambiguously: 

Any user, who wants to tell about loving any mod, and looking forward to update (but not ask "could you please update it?" or ""Hey, slave! Yes, you! work! Listen your master: Work faster!"  Just update it today!"), when getting moderators sanctions in this case, will feel fear in future, when this user want to send positive feedback about any mode.   

I believe - telling about love to one or another mod and about plans to use it in future (including next version of game)  can't be harassment. Yes, it can be not fine to all developers:

 

But our life, in fact, big tree of responsibilities and promises.  And every day we feel pressure in work, in family, from our friends, etc. This pressure can be harassment only in one case: if person of producing harassment understand it is real harassment, or produce it more one times. Anybody, who asking something, by default, I believe, must presume as has good intentions. 

When you chef asking about update your code in work :)) You can hate this code, work, etc. And yes, you can let you go from this work. But you chef not harassmenter :)) He just ask you about update, because he really want to get it. 

To exclude repressions to users, with good intentions, community IMHO must change rules.

I think, community must has not-ambiguously rules, for example(in bold my changes):

2.3 Forbidden messages:

e.Messages that inquire about release dates for future versions of KSP or any mods.

 

Or: "2.2.k. Please note: Any asking of update mods is harassment. Please see 2.2.d!"

Edited April 2, 2016 by Polnoch

[Stone Blue]

3 hours ago, Vanamonde said:

Agreed. Can't vouch for my scariness, but it's done. 

Thank You Vanamonde!

[Snark]

30 minutes ago, Polnoch said:

Please update rules, and add ban of any questions about time of update. Current rules can be used ambiguously: 

Any user, who wants to tell about loving any mod, and looking forward to update (but not ask "could you please update it?" or ""Hey, slave! Yes, you! work! Listen your master: Work faster!"  Just update it today!"), when getting moderators sanctions in this case, will feel fear in future, when this user want to send positive feedback about any mode.

Hi Polnoch,

The issue here is not about rules, i.e. things that are actually "forbidden"-- it's about being polite and considerate to mod authors.  Just like there's not a law that you should wipe your feet before walking into someone's house, but it's the decent thing to do. 

I know that when you really love a mod, and KSP breaks it because of an update, of course you're eager to see a new version!  Chances are, a lot of your fellow users are, too.  However, if you've never written a mod yourself, it may not be so obvious to you what it's like from the mod author's point of view.

Obviously I can't speak for all mod authors, and some authors are going to have different ideas of what bothers them.  But speaking as a modder myself, and for a fair number of other modders that I've spoken with, I've got a pretty good general picture of what type of activity people tend to find intrusive.

So, here's Snark's Guide To Mod-Thread-Posting Etiquette:

• Do post in a mod thread with questions about how to use or install it, if you're having trouble figuring it out
• Do post in a mod thread with feedback about how much you love the mod
• Don't post in a thread asking "please update", ever
• Don't post in a thread asking "when will an update be available", ever
• It can be okay to include a comment like "looking forward to the next update!" in your post (but that shouldn't be the only reason for your post)

Hope this helps!

[John FX]

To my mind there are three possible ways a mod maker approaches an update. Either they plan to update anyway, they are not sure if they still want the hassle of updating a mod, or they will not be updating their mod.

If they plan to update then constantly replying to posts in their thread will distract them from getting their mod out. It does not give them extra hours in the day so it for sure won`t speed things up.

If they are not sure then loads of posts asking `is it ready yet? When will it come out?` might move them to the category of not updating their mod, it would mean less hassle after all.

If they are not updating their mod then out of courtesy they should let people know but sometimes they just leave the forum.

Note there is not one of the scenarios where hassling the mod maker gets the mod out quicker...

[Divstator]

On 4/10/2016 at 5:22 AM, emerald said:

Please remove my version, I've deleted the repository.

I will refrain from doing anything for KSP mods anymore.

(boldness by me btw) Is this the result you are looking for?

This is my first post and normally I wouldn't post. I lurk. I follow the dev threads and the modder's threads to check on the state of things. Not only am I very thankful to both SQUAD and the the modders, I am in awe of them. I'm a pilot(not a jet pilot, single engine land weekend) and I really like how FAR recreates "ground effect" when I am trying to land, it's impressive. I have also wrote mods in the past, mostly assisted on mods for Elder Scrolls stuff. That said, my opinion as an outsider and relatively new player(1100 hours) is this:

Modders as well as devs words carry weight. (btw  nice job KasperVld, he does his job well I think.) While the devs have KasperVld the modders don't really have a dedicated spokes person that I can see. On the mods that I worked on, thankfully we had a pr person that allowed us to work on coding without being hassled.

On 4/2/2016 at 8:32 PM, Snark said:

So, here's Snark's Guide To Mod-Thread-Posting Etiquette:

• Do post in a mod thread with questions about how to use or install it, if you're having trouble figuring it out
• Do post in a mod thread with feedback about how much you love the mod
• Don't post in a thread asking "please update", ever
• Don't post in a thread asking "when will an update be available", ever
• It can be okay to include a comment like "looking forward to the next update!" in your post (but that shouldn't be the only reason for your post)

Hope this helps!

This, I think is the best approach to fix that. But maybe a little better fleshed out? A little less "commanding"? Because to me y'all are sounding exclusionary, which seems out of character. New players and new modders are going to be ignorant, everyone starts out that way. Best way to fix that is with guidance. Perhaps if you have to school someone, maybe do it through PM first? Giving someone a public thrashing is not really... inspiring? Also if you had a community guide on how to communicate with modders then when someone went astray they could just be directed to the guide without the modder coming off as the heavy, because that's not really fair to somebody who gives so much for very little return.

I think a lot of this is growing pains as well.

In closing I would like to say that I really admire Ferram, the amount of patience he exhibited for the whole lift debate thread was impressive. However, him trolling his own thread was what got me to press the little yellow button(on a side note, Does the "donate" button have, like an auto "Thanks" mechanism? Might be handy.). That was really funny.