[ASC-III] Air Superiority Challenge - King of the Hill (BDArmory 4v4 AI Duels: WW1 Theme) - Now Concluded!

[SpaceplaneAddict]

Addiction Aerospace's Dart is in production, with included guns!

[inigma]

15 minutes ago, SpaceplaneAddict said:

Addiction Aerospace's Dart is in production, with included guns!

If I survive the next several challenges...  heh...   BRING IT ON!

[ScriptKitt3h]

Alright, I'm considering submitting one of these to the challenge- once I do some testing, of course.

I'll likely hold off until I pit it against some of the other contenders here in my own test runs, then modify it to improve its odds of survival. (More missiles may be in the cards.)

[ScriptKitt3h]

Matter of fact, I just did run some tests using two variants of my plane, the ATS-FX04 Talon MKII-B and the customized version, the Razorfang, against the Fighter Papa 1 design (just to see how prepared my fighters would be for this).
In both tests, both fighters were put 1v1 (mainly to see if there was any inherent design-based things I needed to alter), and let loose on full autopilot Dogfight Mode.

Test 01 (Razorfang):




(The tiny puff of smoke in the far distance is the Fighter Papa 1's explosion FX dying down, it got hit nearly at the exact same time as the Razorfang did. AIM-120s are tough customers.)

Test 02 (Talon MKII-B):




Talon got splashed...


And so did the Fighter Papa.

Both tests (Talon v. FP1/Razorfang v. FP1) ended with both fighters being near-simultaneously obliterated by AIM-120 AMRAAMs, as both planes in both tests fired off several at each other before going evasive from the incoming fire. I think that the 2v2 model is pretty good since it allows for more than just point->shoot->both kill each other near-simultaneously.

 

That all being said, I'm submitting my Talon MK-IIB for the challenge. 1 toggles the engines, and 2 toggles afterburners.
Link:https://www.dropbox.com/s/x9281w48jsue5aj/ATS-FX4%20Talon%20MKII-B%20%28BDA%20Competitive%29.craft?dl=0

[Triop]

I'm in

Edited April 6, 2016 by Triop

[inigma]

Anyone know off hand which mod allows one to paint flags on your aircraft?

[inigma]

On 4/5/2016 at 8:47 PM, Kuansenhama said:

Ooh! BDA AI fighter challenge! The great country of Uuuokozetistan must show its prowess at areal combat.

I present to you our magnificent fighter: The Arrowhead MK2. The fighter is 40 something parts stock and BDA only. (Just use two of them)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vv116s4g4e7tkuh/Arrowhead%20V2.craft?dl=0

Whoever does the fight please adorn the planes with our great flag.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wa9y4rzfo0sfjoi/uuuokozetistan.png?dl=0

Anyone know off hand which mod allows one to paint flags on your aircraft?

 

i couldn't get the flag thing to work properly. argh. my fault. anyways, I picked a flag for you...it matched one of your colors. hope it suffices for now. tough match. I was sweating in that third round.

 

You obliterated my planes. I freely admit your planes are on par with mine. I think I just got lucky in the third round.

Edited April 6, 2016 by inigma

[ScriptKitt3h]

Did some more testing^* (doesn't count towards the challenge, as I did not record this as a video), this time pitting my submitted fighter, the Talon MKII-B against the Arrowhead V2.

Standard 2v2 format, with both teams starting at 8000 meters. Both groups fired off multiple AIM-120s before going evasive.

However, the first salvo missed both teams/only hit chaff. The second salvo saw the first Talon get downed, followed by the first Arrowhead.

The remaining Talon then gave chase to the last Arrowhead, and took it out at range with its laser module. (The laser overheated the MK2 2-node engine mount as far as I can tell, and the resulting explosion caused a total breakup of the airframe.)

I'm feeling pretty confident my jets will do well in this challenge.

 

[gag09]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qptdtmn6azibp1u/Corsair%20Krakens%20Maw.craft?dl=0 I enter my corsair into the competition.

[ScriptKitt3h]

5 minutes ago, gag09 said:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qptdtmn6azibp1u/Corsair%20Krakens%20Maw.craft?dl=0 I enter my corsair into the competition.

Looks slick, but don't forget- Hellfires don't work for air-to-air.

[Kuansenhama]

8 hours ago, inigma said:

Anyone know off hand which mod allows one to paint flags on your aircraft?

 

i couldn't get the flag thing to work properly. argh. my fault. anyways, I picked a flag for you...it matched one of your colors. hope it suffices for now. tough match. I was sweating in that third round.

 

You obliterated my planes. I freely admit your planes are on par with mine. I think I just got lucky in the third round.

You didn't get lucky. Jeb was flying that plane in that final 1v1 of the last round... That's why you won.

I'll be back soon enough with a new design...

Edited April 6, 2016 by Kuansenhama

[gag09]

I know hell-fires don't work XD i was too lazy to open ksp and change them.

Edited April 6, 2016 by gag09

[inigma]

36 minutes ago, Kuansenhama said:

You didn't get lucky. Jeb was flying that plane in that final 1v1 of the last round... That's why you won.

I'll be back soon enough with a new design...

Heh. Ya, I guess the King gets first pick of his pilots. To the current title defender goes the advantage...

In my install I've only hired pilots in case anyone is wondering, so everyone gets a skilled pilot.

Great match!

[gag09]

Submitting something less sleek more competitive. https://www.dropbox.com/s/mx2e8ycve3809le/P-1%20Wyvern%20Tourney.craft?dl=0 \

 

I guess this is my official submission for the competition then.

Edited April 6, 2016 by gag09

[Redshift OTF]

Would turreted weapons be allowed? I think they would be a bit OP imo. 4 x 0.50 cal turrets kind of negate the need for a plane to turn.

[drtricky]

I have a fighter that has a 30mm Goalkeeper CIWS. If you (the OP) want to ban turrets, I can provide a version without the turret.

Edited April 6, 2016 by drtricky

[inigma]

47 minutes ago, Redshift OTF said:

Would turreted weapons be allowed? I think they would be a bit OP imo. 4 x 0.50 cal turrets kind of negate the need for a plane to turn.

There are no limits at the moment. The idea is to test the limits of BDA designs no matter how unconventional. The goal is to create a deadly aerial target for my GAP contract pack. 

 

My concern for ASC is Can the AI dodge turret fire? I read somewhere it can't. Can someone confirm if the AI can?  I guess once someone's design becomes unbeatable, we could reevaluate a reset and change to the ASC rules.

Thoughts?

19 minutes ago, drtricky said:

I have a fighter that has a 30mm Goalkeeper CIWS. If you want to ban turrets, I can provide a version without the turret.

A flying goalkeeper? Submit it. Lets see how it fares.

[drtricky]

9 minutes ago, inigma said:

My concern for ASC is Can the AI dodge turret fire? I read somewhere it can't. Can someone confirm if the AI can?  I guess once someone's design becomes unbeatable, we could reevaluate a reset and change to the ASC rules.

Thoughts?

From testing the Goalkeeper mounted on my own fighter against another fighter, the AI can dodge gunfire at distances of 1+ km, depending on the muzzle velocity of the bullet (30mm rounds travel faster than 20mm vulcan rounds, for example. I'm not sure about the muzzle velocity of .50 BMG rounds in BDA), and the plane's own velocity and handling. Any closer and the AI generally has too little time to react.

 

A bigger issue I've observed, however, is that the behavior the AI takes to dodge gunfire from a turret disrupts its ability to aim and fire missiles, and correspondingly, any fixed guns. So even if a plane is able to dodge gunfire from a turret, it can't fire back at the enemy reliably. I have observed this video where a Goalkeeper had a hard time reliably hitting a fighter due to its tiny size, but as you can see, none of the fighters submitted so far are that tiny

 

Yeah, so even though I have a plane with a Goalkeeper CIWS, I would personally recommend banning turrets. They'd just be too powerful.

Edited April 6, 2016 by drtricky

[inigma]

5 minutes ago, drtricky said:

The AI can dodge gunfire at distances of 1+ km, depending on the muzzle velocity of the bullet (30mm rounds from a Goalkeeper CIWS travel faster than 20mm vulcan rounds, for example. I'm not sure about the muzzle velocity of .50 BMG rounds in BDA), and the plane's own velocity and handling. Any closer and fighters have simply too little time to react.

 

A bigger issue I've observed, however, is that the behavior the AI takes to dodge gunfire from a turret disrupts its ability to aim and fire missiles, and correspondingly, any fixed guns. So even if a plane is able to dodge gunfire from a turret, it can't fire back at the enemy reliably.

 

Yeah, so even though I have a plane with a Goalkeeper CIWS, I would personally recommend banning turrets. They'd just be too powerful.

@BahamutoD thoughts?  Knowing what you know of AI behaviour, would you recommend banning turrets in AI fights for now?

[ScriptKitt3h]

1 hour ago, Redshift OTF said:

Would turreted weapons be allowed? I think they would be a bit OP imo. 4 x 0.50 cal turrets kind of negate the need for a plane to turn.

 

12 minutes ago, inigma said:

There are no limits at the moment. The idea is to test the limits of BDA designs no matter how unconventional. The goal is to create a deadly aerial target for my GAP contract pack. 

My concern for ASC is Can the AI dodge turret fire? I read somewhere it can't. Can someone confirm if the AI can?  I guess once someone's design becomes unbeatable, we could reevaluate a reset and change to the ASC rules.

Thoughts?

A flying goalkeeper? Submit it. Lets see how it fares.

AFAIK it really somewhat depends on the turret. For example, the laser functions as a turret, but has diminishing returns in terms of DPS over range, and is somewhat limited in terms of tracking range/radius, plus the AI rarely decides to actually use it a lot (from my personal experience).

However, with things like the Goalkeeper/Turret Vulcans/etc. they might be a bit tougher. I'd be somewhat ok with .50 cals though, with a soft limit of 1 per aircraft. 

[Redshift OTF]

Maybe force them to be fixed forward. They might be used by the AI to shoot down missiles as well. I might test this.

[ScriptKitt3h]

10 minutes ago, drtricky said:

I'm not sure about the muzzle velocity of .50 BMG rounds in BDA

Compared to the 20mm and 30mm, they seem relatively slow... though just like with the other two, a shower of full-auto fire makes up for that in CQB. It's really up to the speed and handling of the fighter and how BD AI pilots use it.

1 minute ago, Redshift OTF said:

Maybe force them to be fixed forward. They might be used by the AI to shoot down missiles as well. I might test this.

I've tried doing that, but it seems the guard mode only will set to missiles or vessels for targets- not both.

[inigma]

10 minutes ago, ScriptKitt3h said:

Compared to the 20mm and 30mm, they seem relatively slow... though just like with the other two, a shower of full-auto fire makes up for that in CQB. It's really up to the speed and handling of the fighter and how BD AI pilots use it.

I've tried doing that, but it seems the guard mode only will set to missiles or vessels for targets- not both.

Correct. So for now I say lets allow turrets unless it becomes a problem no one can defeat. At least in ASC we will find out what works, what doesn't,  and whats really OP so we can provide feedback to @BahamutoD.

Edited April 6, 2016 by inigma

[Matuchkin]

Just now, drtricky said:

I have a fighter that has a 30mm Goalkeeper CIWS. If you (the OP) want to ban turrets, I can provide a version without the turret.

Oh, a small turret- WAIT, what? A goalkeep- I want to see it now! 

Edited April 6, 2016 by Matuchkin

[drtricky]

20 minutes ago, ScriptKitt3h said:

Compared to the 20mm and 30mm, they seem relatively slow... though just like with the other two, a shower of full-auto fire makes up for that in CQB. It's really up to the speed and handling of the fighter and how BD AI pilots use it.

I've observed that the AI on my fighter always engages with the Goalkeeper CIWS if an enemy is within 2.5 km, even if it has sidewinder missiles that could be used at such a range. From testing I've done, there seems to be some sort of algorithm for what weapon the AI will use dependent on its perceived power of a weapon. 

I've mounted various guns on another variant of my fighter for ground attack purposes, and I've noticed that the AI will not use a Vulcan turret unless a ground target is within ~2 km of the aircraft, regardless of the weapon manager's set gun range. On the other hand, I've observed that it will engage with a Goalkeeper from ~3.8 km away, even though Goalkeeper rounds have a fuse set for 3.5 km max. I've observed that the AI will engage with Oerlikon Millennium gun at ~3.8 km too, even though the fuses were set for ~1.5 km (Altering the fuse settings on the turret does not seem to work). And when I mounted an M1 Abrams turret, I observed the AI firing from ~4.5 km away! 

And it used these guns at these ranges even though it could have used the TOW missiles I mounted on it more effectively because to be honest, the gunfire from all these guns was not very accurate beyond 2 km. Weird stuff.

Edited April 6, 2016 by drtricky