Fussing about bugs...

[ZooNamedGames]

31 minutes ago, kmMango said:

For a moment I thought you were referring to my dank meme joke.

Thanks man. You had already said 90% of what I was thinking. I just felt a need to add my two cents.

Well your 2c just make this a dollar.

[Violent Jeb]

7 hours ago, ZooNamedGames said:

One of the biggest issues I've seen is that the community is changing (and I was just discussing this with @sal_vager yesterday).

When KSP first got started, those who came to the game where those who were willing to put up with the issues, and had the ability to solve problems independently. Slowly the game and the community matured. Currently however, the community has changed with new life. You will notice yourself, a lot of new users on the forums (joined anytime after Jan. 2016), and the majority of these complaints come from them. These users are coming to play the game based on nothing more than 1 or 2 youtube videos and are immediately diving into the game head first with no preparation or explanation.

So when they encounter an issue, they immediately reach out and complain, sometimes blaming Squad directly. Often, they're problems are one of 3 causes. 1, it's a problem with their design which with minor fixing would be solved. 2, It's a known bug, and they simply refuse to read up about it and work around it. So the simply complain and rage quit. And 3, it's simply the game not working to their expectations or desires. These players don't want to fail a few times to get to the moon, the "fun in failure" aspect of KSP, does not exist to them. Rather than taking note of their problem, they complain.

Not EVERY new member will be sour. However, it seems the majority of new members, are. I hope this is just a phase of the community and they will come and go. But only time will tell.

This is completely off base. For starters, i've been playing since like .19 and never knew how to "solve problems independently". I have relied, and always relied on a game developer keeping their game at least stable enough to play, if it were presented to people.

If you want to take pot shots at people who bought a game post 1.0, and are upset at save-breaking wheels, unhelpful "senior" forum members, and a general drop in reliability, go ahead, but its not just new people who have problems with this.

For that matter, i've not seen too much "complaining" in general about the release, i've seen lots of posts by frustrated people who want to play a game and have nowhere else to turn. Where are the loads of people "fussing"? They're just trying to figure out why none of it works, and you blame them??

 FWIW, i tried to make an account for the bug tracker - didn't work. I did pay for this.

I agree with the people who say that we have been here since .90, which was one version after .25, saying that it was not time to go to 1.0. Ironically, many of those people left after being completely ignored, but its not because they're "drowned out" by new players; they just moved on.

Like, It's honorable to try and shush people who are complaining but with all do respect this areas of the forum are about discussing development and this is literally what we have to discuss, the state of this game. It is the bugs, that result in the discussion (fussing), about this game.

Let me close this by saying squad have made an exceptional piece of software when taken as a whole, and I try and acknowledge the things that squad have well (of which there are many). Eventually I have faith that this game will be ironed out and 100% pure awesome.

 

 

[ExtremeSquared]

New people are the only ones that have a right to complain. The rest of us signed up as beta testers by buying the game in beta.

Edited April 24, 2016 by ExtremeSquared

[Guest]

Since I've been here I've seen one of my bug reports disappear from the tracker and many of my contributions disappear in forum crashes and restructuring. I see no reason to waste my time any further helping to solve KSP bugs. Hell, I'm still sore over the loss of the spaceport. I still love the game, and hopefully one day when I get time to fix some of the most annoying bugs for myself, maybe I can play and enjoy it again. Until then, I'll be on the sidelines watching as this fiasco continues.

[ZooNamedGames]

9 minutes ago, Violent Jeb said:

This is completely off base. For starters, i've been playing since like .19 and never knew how to "solve problems independently". I have relied, and always relied on a game developer keeping their game at least stable enough to play, if it were presented to people.

If you want to take pot shots at people who bought a game post 1.0, and are upset at save-breaking wheels, unhelpful "senior" forum members, and a general drop in reliability, go ahead, but its not just new people who have problems with this.

For that matter, i've not seen too much "complaining" in general about the release, i've seen lots of posts by frustrated people who want to play a game and have nowhere else to turn. Where are the loads of people "fussing"? They're just trying to figure out why none of it works, and you blame them??

 FWIW, i tried to make an account for the bug tracker - didn't work. I did pay for this.

I agree with the people who say that we have been here since .90, which was one version after .25, saying that it was not time to go to 1.0. Ironically, many of those people left after being completely ignored, but its not because they're "drowned out" by new players; they just moved on.

Like, It's honorable to try and shush people who are complaining but with all do respect this areas of the forum are about discussing development and this is literally what we have to discuss, the state of this game. It is the bugs, that result in the discussion (fussing), about this game.

Let me close this by saying squad have made an exceptional piece of software when taken as a whole, and I try and acknowledge the things that squad have well (of which there are many). Eventually I have faith that this game will be ironed out and 100% pure awesome.

 

 

This is a game which has spent nearly 3 years in development and is still heavily changing. There is nothing sound about this game. As to its stability, every game has bugs, especially one that's constantly changing.

The "senior" community loves to help, I have repeatedly stopped in and provided players with aid, in fact most of the older members do.

Why didn't you report your fault? The support team here is outstanding as far as helping you through problems. Not asking for help is proving my point!

Moving on is a players choice. Every voice is heard but every suggestion is weighed. The game was ready, it was filled with the content the developers wanted. It was not finished, but it was content full as far as they saw. Even with its "release" like any game it will change and have bugs.

KSP General Discussion is not for complaints or development discussion, that's for the Suggestion and Gameplay section or the Technical Support sections, and even then rants and rampant complaints belong in no section. If your goal is not to help improve the game (which these posts are not), they should not be posted.

It is awesome, and my work with RSP is proof to this. 

Besides my comment was to the recent spread of complaints and was speaking from my experience of over 2 years, and especially having to have people come ask to join my various groups. Such as my rocket company or now RSP.

[g00bd0g]

Totally agree with trying to be constructive and productive with bug reporting.

HOWEVER

I love SQUAD, but it is time for some tough love. The QA on this last build is literally the worst I've seen since .23. There should be less game-breaking issues, not more. I am genuinely concerned that this is starting to get away from the original dev crew and we may just get a buggy lump of crap which they call a "finished" product. IMHO .95 was the most "solid" release to date. Every release since has resolved some issues while introducing others. The latest 1.1 release is SO BAD IT IS LITERALLY GAME-BREAKING. 

I would have much preferred SQUAD to squash all these severe bugs before releasing it as a "finished" game. They have beta testing for a reason. They don't need to release beta quality updates as "finished". It is extremely unprofessional. How did issues of this magnitude slip through?

Squad needs to do an update where they introduce no new features, and simply fix everything that is currently broken.

Edited April 25, 2016 by g00bd0g

[kmMango]

Agreed. 1.2 needs to be simply "The Bug Fix Update."

[Jarin]

8 hours ago, ExtremeSquared said:

People don't realize this is still a de facto Early Access game. There will be bugs and they will be fixed. It's being run just fine for an Early Access project.

So you agree that we should be on release version 0.3 or 0.4 right now. Not 1.1. No storefront currently has the words "Early Access" anywhere. New players absolutely have a right to complain. 

Edited April 25, 2016 by Jarin

[ZooNamedGames]

1 minute ago, Jarin said:

So you agree that we should be on release version 0.3 or 0.4 right now. Not 1.1. No storefront currently has the words "Early Access" anywhere. New players absolutely have a right to complain. 

KSP is no different than Minecraft. It's heavily in development and bugs are expected, especially as updates are released.

If you want to complain about buggy games that are "released", go play "Big Rigs: Over The Roads Racing".

[ExtremeSquared]

4 minutes ago, Jarin said:

So you agree that we should be on release version 0.3 or 0.4 right now. Not 1.1. No storefront currently has the words "Early Access" anywhere. New players absolutely have a right to complain. 

Of course. Polls were taken on here during the 1.0 release. The vast majority of this forum agreed the 1.0 release was a very silly thing. I don't think this is very controversial.

[ZooNamedGames]

2 minutes ago, ExtremeSquared said:

Of course. Polls were taken on here during the 1.0 release. The vast majority of this forum agreed the 1.0 release was a very silly thing. I don't think this is very controversial.

It isn't the forums decision, it's Squad. It's their game and their vision.

[Superfluous J]

Don't you know release numbers don't mean anything?

(other side of face)

Yaaaay 1.0 we're released woo hoo release 1.0 yaaaaay!

(back to other side)

I don't know what you're talking about. We've always been at war with Oceania in Early Access.

[regex]

2 hours ago, HebaruSan said:

What shocked me was the decision to go to full 1.1 release given the known bugs.

 

They flew a well-known KSP streamer out for a "release party" and Turkey was on his way out.  Once I put those facts together the 1.1 release date made perfect sense.

Just waiting for 1.1.1 now...

[kmMango]

6 minutes ago, regex said:

They flew a well-known KSP streamer out for a "release party" and Turkey was on his way out.  Once I put those facts together the 1.1 release date made perfect sense.

Just waiting for 1.1.1 now...

Cynical Regex is cynical, but correct.

I'm not here to complain, but I will say that Squad seems to be following the same development model as the F-35. 

We need bugfixes, yesterday.

[HebaruSan]

2 minutes ago, regex said:

They flew a well-known KSP streamer out for a "release party" and Turkey was on his way out.  Once I put those facts together the 1.1 release date made perfect sense.

I get that the wheels were in motion, but given a choice between "release something that will embarrass me forever" and "inconvenience a streamer temporarily," I would not have made this choice. It's not like they have to kowtow to that guy because he's the only high profile content producer playing this game.

[regex]

14 minutes ago, HebaruSan said:

I get that the wheels were in motion, but given a choice between "release something that will embarrass me forever" and "inconvenience a streamer temporarily," I would not have made this choice. It's not like they have to kowtow to that guy because he's the only high profile content producer playing this game.

vOv

Likely had to do with a lot of different things but even knowing that the software wasn't ready they flew Daz out and had Turkey, a man on his way back home to family, on the couch with him.  Given I know precisely zero about the circumstances behind the release and the decisions made about said release I'm going with the visible reasons.

Edited April 25, 2016 by regex

[Ignath]

11 minutes ago, regex said:

vOv

Likely had to do with a lot of different things but even knowing that the software wasn't ready they flew Daz out and had Turkey, a man on his way back home to family, on the couch with him.  Given I know precisely zero about the circumstances behind the release and the decisions made about said release I'm going with the visible reasons.

Not only that @regex but they had a sale scheduled for 1.1 release on STEAM as well.  Couldn't push that back after it was set in stone I'd assume.

[Corw]

8 hours ago, Majorjim said:

They are, their first ever. I really think it became much bigger than any of them expected. We should really cut them some slack. 

 I too am guilty of moaning about the state of the game and will try in future to tone it down and channel my passion for the game into bug reporting and helping squad make the game perfect. 

So they have been developing for quite few years now but they are not developers? Oh. I guess same applies to Mark Zuckenberg cause only thing he ever worked on was Facebook

[ExtremeSquared]

What we need is competition. EA Games... EA Sports... EA Space?

[WinkAllKerb'']

hehe extreme squared ; ) as someone who not played mass effect 1 and mass effect 2 ; i gave a try  at mass effect 3 i especially appreciated the writing it was kinda like doing that:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamebook

Edited April 25, 2016 by WinkAllKerb''

[RW-1]

Hmmmmm ....

I'm too busy enjoying 1.1 to fuss ...

It has it's moments, and I to look forward to the next patch.

I hate to say this but it's only my opinion, those who feel they are owed something because they paid for it... I've gotten more out of this game since I first got it a couple of years ago (and I play stock, no mods as of yet) than what I DID pay for it, so no complaining you'll hear from me.

Of course, those same people are complaining about win 10 when they got that for free, so .....

They released it, and now we as users will deal with it (or go back to 1.0.5) while they iron it out, it's not like they have released it and abandoned all of us.

[NikkyD]

I just deleted 20 lines of text because i can sum it up.

I am a customer who has been and still is waiting for features /tweaks that will most likely never come. Instead the game is "enriched" with features i dont need and bugs that make it less playable every single time. Why not complain about it ? Hopping on the Squad-Fan-Bus does not give me anything and it wont make the game better.

All the new stuff is just "bling bling" and the true issues are only mended by mods... mods... you need so many mods for this to be playable because the devs cant deliver anything but bugs!

[HebaruSan]

28 minutes ago, NikkyD said:

All the new stuff is just "bling bling" and the true issues are only mended by mods... mods... you need so many mods for this to be playable because the devs cant deliver anything but bugs!

On the other hand, lifting the 4 GB memory limit on Windows and dramatically improving performance will enable you to use mods that much better (once the crash bugs are ironed out), and that's something no mod could have done.

I definitely don't fault SQUAD for relying on mods to fill in content. They have a much larger pool of volunteer "developers" that way, who can write code intended for users who specifically opt-in to a particular feature set (with correspondingly lower expectations about reliability, performance, etc.). All without SQUAD having to lift a finger themselves. It's a no-brainer.

[pandaman]

I certainly felt that 1.1 wasn't quite ready when they released.  Up to that point they had been taking their time and doing their best to fix it before releasing, then they suddenly released.

They had their reasons, and I can also understand that they may have just felt they had delayed for far too long already.

I kniw I have probably been lucky, but my own experience with 1.1 hasn't been too bad so far.  No crashes yet, a couple of minor bugs have surfaced,  and the wheels and landing gear obviously need tweaks or fixes,  but they are the kinds of tricky 'balance' things I expected to not be fully sorted.

[Greenfire32]

Slashy, I'd be 100% behind you if KSP was still considered in a  "beta" state, but as it stands KSP has been officially released and...well we're not beta testers anymore, we're customers.

We can't have updates with huge game-changing/breaking bugs in them anymore. They've got to be retail-ready from here on out.

And so while I respect what this thread is trying to accomplish, I have to disagree with it.