Guest Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 (edited) 18 hours ago, Aperture Science said: Me too. Just look at these gorgeous, absolutely fantastic keys: God, I can feel their metallic taste already. Mmmmmmmmmmmmm. By the way, I'll also stop supporting SQUAD, as in, stop promoting them or telling people to buy their stuff. Doesn't mean I will uninstall the game, though, since I already paid for it. Those are pretty nice keys Edited May 9, 2016 by m-theory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rocketeer Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 (edited) @Curveball Anders I really meant those involved in this discussion, but (you and everyone else should) feel free to include/exclude yourself from any of my collectivised remarks. EDIT: Well Pol-plops. So much for a profound 1000th post... Edited May 9, 2016 by The_Rocketeer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plusck Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 1 hour ago, The_Rocketeer said: First, talking about this and expressing displeasure about it is really all we can do. None of us have grounds to bring Squad to any sort of legal tribunal about it.... And yet so many people here have elevated themselves to the position of judge, jury and executioner. We have one person who was fired and is being vocal about it years down the line. We have a couple of other people basically saying they were working too hard and/or not very happy at more or less the same time. And from that a significant number of people are taking that as gospel. Perfectly prepared to damage Squad's reputation at any occasion even though they have absolutely no way of knowing what the truth of the matter is. The old "where there's smoke there's fire" so let's have a witch-burning while we're at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rocketeer Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 20 minutes ago, Plusck said: And yet so many people here have elevated themselves to the position of judge, jury and executioner. The old "where there's smoke there's fire" so let's have a witch-burning while we're at it. And on their personal, private scale, why not let them be judge, jury and executioner? How much harm can it really do if one or two people take such an extreme stance? We're all so relatively powerless stacked next to big corporations, why not let a few people fantasize about sticking it to the big man for a change? If this was a witch-burning, we'd have the whole town attacking a lone frail teenage girl. What we actually have is closer to an angry swarm of houseflies buzzing around a moderate elephant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 I wouldn't say it was a swarm, more like a few houseflies flying into a window with no clue why they are doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rocketeer Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 (edited) Shh, @m-theory. Just look at the shiny keys! Edited May 9, 2016 by The_Rocketeer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 6 minutes ago, The_Rocketeer said: Shh, @m-theory. Just look at the shiny keys! hehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korvath85 Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 My god I can't believe this topic is still even a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stargate525 Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 3 hours ago, The_Rocketeer said: Shh, @m-theory. Just look at the shiny keys! Did I start a thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I_Killed_Jeb Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 Pretty surprising how many people are essentially responding to a 40+ hour/wk job with a salary of $2,400 with a resounding "meh" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallarnon Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 (edited) 49 minutes ago, I_Killed_Jeb said: Pretty surprising how many people are essentially responding to a 40+ hour/wk job with a salary of $2,400 with a resounding "meh" I have yet to hear of any job responsibilities that would substantiate a 40+ hr/wk job so thus far it strikes me as more of a contractor who got overzealous and ended up with an inflated sense of self-worth as a result. Regardless of the potential that the alleged salary may be a highly livable wage wherever this guy might live, the biggest takeaway from all of this is that he was let go, not quit, so he was clearly okay with that wage at the time. If he was okay with being paid it under the terms of his contract with Squad why should I be upset for him when he clearly wasn't upset enough to quit? I mean really, the whole salary thing smacks of being solely designed to elicit outraged gnashing of teeth at the idea that some guy was paid pennies on the hour while Squad made bank. Edited May 10, 2016 by Fallarnon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regex Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 18 minutes ago, I_Killed_Jeb said: Pretty surprising how many people are essentially responding to a 40+ hour/wk job with a salary of $2,400 with a resounding "meh" I find it interesting that my wages put me in the top 1% of earners in the world even though I make half of what people make elsewhere in the U.S. doing the same work, anecdotally. So, no, I'm not at all surprised that conditions and wages are different in, say, Mexico. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallarnon Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 17 hours ago, 5thHorseman said: "There's no proof it was ever actually all that bad, just people saying things for unknown reasons. We can't know the truth and it doesn't affect us, so we shouldn't speculate" "That's exactly what they WANT you to think." "Current employees say it's getting better" "So it was worse in the past! Gotcha!" "They just took a 2 week vacation. Sounds pretty good to me." "They just did that so they could screw over hourly employees and scare the rest into thinking they were on some kind hidden retreat where they decided whose life to ruin next!" Okay Fox Mulder. You got me. You will believe no matter what. Shall we begin handing out tinfoil caps? 11 hours ago, Mr Shifty said: How interesting that they've buried your thread here: a PR trick, like releasing negative political news on Friday afternoon. Fear of daylight? Who buried what? Two threads talking about the same exact thing were merged. PR what? 10 hours ago, Apollo13 said: Yep. Rather than respond to information, just bury it. I guess Squad could have deleted the thread. Buried how? Identical information merged into thread discussing same. Issue?!?! 10 hours ago, J.Random said: The best proof of "things getting better" would be a proper release without rush, crunches and OT and with "when it's done" attitude in mind. We are yet to see one. While that's all nice to think about as someone who works for a game company I can say without reservation that it just doesn't work out that way in real life. 5 hours ago, The_Rocketeer said: EDIT: Well Pol-plops. So much for a profound 1000th post... Liked for the sake of the edit. I've fallen afoul of the milestone gremlin myself on many a forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blunderbuss Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 45 minutes ago, I_Killed_Jeb said: Pretty surprising how many people are essentially responding to a 40+ hour/wk job with a salary of $2,400 with a resounding "meh" Well then, sir, please allow me to respond with: I keep imagining 12 poor devs, sharing a 3-bedroom apartment, within reasonable walking distance of their workplace. One guy is always cooking, one always cleaning. Each has just enough money for the communal 3 meals a day, consisting of tortillas, beans, and rice for every meal, and their share of cheap beer, saving what they can to send ho... Er, nevermind, nothing to see here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randox Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 (edited) There's nothing in there so surprising I wouldn't be willing to take PD at his word on it, though I think some distinction between the company leadership and the vanilla developers would be nice. The only point I am really prepared to disagree on is the firing of Damion. I'll give the man credit where it is due of course, but for all he did for this community, his conduct on the forums should have seen him sacked much earlier. As far as the rest of it goes, I'm sure I'll never understand the realities of everyone involved, so that makes me reluctant to form any strong opinions. As I said, from everything I know about this industry, I would fully expect the working conditions and pay to suck for everyone right across the entire board, and I'll not condemn a developer for that, because they aren't the sole driving factor behind that state of affairs (it's also largely due to us refusing to pay more for games, and a glut of people who want to work in this industry). At the same time, it's been pretty clear for a long time that Squad has either been firing people at an impressive rate, or is utterly unable to retain staff. Between the PR/media team, and the modders they brought on to help develop, they've publicly lost a lot of people, and that's not normal, even for an indie developer. As for the salary, I suppose it depends on where you live. I do of course realize where Squad is based out of, and I'll not blame them for paying everyone what they consider an acceptable wage and not jacking up the pay just because you happen to be in the States. But for people wondering why the rest of us are laughing/crying at that figure, $2,400 a year is a fraction of the poverty line in countries like the USA, or Canada (where I am). It's not even close to a living wage that will cover food, housing, utilities, and clothing. Edited May 10, 2016 by Randox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pxi Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 2 hours ago, Fallarnon said: he was clearly okay with that wage at the time. If he was okay with being paid it under the terms of his contract with Squad why should I be upset for him when he clearly wasn't upset enough to quit? Not aiming this reply at you personally, but I've seen this argument put forward umpteen times over this whole affair. I don't agree or disagree with it, but let me offer another possibility: Is it possible that he felt that being able to attach his name to a highly successful project would be more valuable to him in the long run than the immediate wage he was receiving? Beyond that I have little perspective to offer on this whole debacle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superfluous J Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 3 minutes ago, pxi said: Is it possible that he felt that being able to attach his name to a highly successful project would be more valuable to him in the long run than the immediate wage he was receiving? Sure it's possible. We have no way of knowing if that was so without him telling us, though, and even if it is true it still means he was okay with the wage at the time. I don't know anything about the Mexican economy or how their minimum wage stacks up compared to ours. I suspect many of the rest of us don't either. I do know that the only numbers I've seen (in this thread) say he was making double the minimum wage at the time which - while not stellar - isn't all that bad sounding. Generally if you work somewhere for years you are - at the very least - unable to find something better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pxi Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 3 minutes ago, 5thHorseman said: I don't know anything about the Mexican economy or how their minimum wage stacks up compared to ours. I suspect many of the rest of us don't either. I do know that the only numbers I've seen (in this thread) say he was making double the minimum wage at the time which - while not stellar - isn't all that bad sounding. Sure, providing you are actually living in Mexico, or another part of the world with a similar cost of living. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sirad Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 Fine company i made my agreement with. Throwing a Rusty Penny at the KSP Staff while shoveling the Millions to Amsterdam and telling lousy excuses to us Customers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creature Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 7 hours ago, regex said: I find it interesting that my wages put me in the top 1% of earners in the world even though I make half of what people make elsewhere in the U.S. doing the same work, anecdotally. So, no, I'm not at all surprised that conditions and wages are different in, say, Mexico. Exactly. The social security alone for one month in my country almost equals the whole years minimum wage in Mexico. Different countries have insanely huge economical differences. How does anyone expect a company to pay over ten times higher salaries than average especially before they've released any products at all? Imagine an indie start-up game company in the US trying to pay every programmer and artist 20 000 dollars per month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkman Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 3 hours ago, Creature said: Different countries have insanely huge economical differences. Yes, companies that hire internationally get to deal with the labor laws in the countries where they hire. Dif How does anyone expect a company to pay over ten times higher salaries than average especially before they've released any products at all? Where did you get the idea people expect ten time higher salaries? Never mind answering that, i realize you must exaggerate in order to try and defend Squad's wage practices. Seriously though: How does anyone expect a company not to comply to the labor laws of the countries where they hire? That just is not how it works, and your calling for it makes me wonder what interest you have in anyone receiving less than the legal minimum wage of the country where the live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plusck Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 14 minutes ago, rkman said: Yes, companies that hire internationally get to deal with the labor laws in the countries where they hire. Where did you get the idea people expect ten time higher salaries? Never mind answering that, i realize you must exaggerate in order to try and defend Squad's wage practices. Seriously though: How does anyone expect a company not to comply to the labor laws of the countries where they hire? That just is not how it works, and your calling for it makes me wonder what interest you have in anyone receiving less than the legal minimum wage of the country where the live. Nobody has said Squad employed anybody outside Mexico. In all likelihood this was a Mexican contract, and possibly not even an employment contract. Actual home address is largely irrelevant in any case if you are supposed to work at head office. Place of work determines the employment laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 (edited) 13 hours ago, Stargate525 said: Did I start a thing? compareyourkeys.com Stargate525 and you started it.... I am really trying, but I can no longer take this thread seriously Edited May 10, 2016 by m-theory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T3Kaos Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 I came across this on Steam and I need to know, Squad, is any of this true? I know you're most likely to delete this post if any of it is but remember this is already on Steam and gathering traction. Tell us, your players, your supporters, the truth and put, what I hope are lies to rest once and for all. http://steamcommunity.com/app/220200/discussions/0/364040961439160782/?tscn=1462813960#p1 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hey everyone! Firstly, let it be known that I love KSP to death and it's one of my all time favorite games, but it has come to the community's attention that Squad, the company behind this amazing game, are guilty of some pretty inhumane work practices, from impossibly low wages ( 2400 USD a year) to insane work hours. The community deserves to know that the insanely talented and often overlooked individuals behind the game are being abused in such a manner. In my country to work is considered one of the cornerstones of human dignity and to build a product built on the exploitation of one's work is the the lowest possible thing a company can do and we, as their community, must be made aware of this issue and promptly make it known that we, as their community do not stand for unethical work practice. Such a practice is unjustifiable, cruel and outrageous, and we will not stand idly by as people are being exploited. I don't care what standard practices are within game development circles. Inhumane working conditions and unethical practices are inexcusable, and we all deserve to know that this is happening. Some links for you guys. https://imgur.com/a/9Lf86#5JQABQG https://www.reddit.com/r/KerbalSpaceProgram/comments/4i6p7j/regarding_minimum_wage_and_the_2400year_in_mexico/ https://www.reddit.com/r/KerbalSpaceProgram/comments/4hw5x7/in_regards_to_pdtvs_post_damion_rayne_former_ksp/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/4i1qzu/the_indie_game_developer_behind_kerbal_space/d2uidc6 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My response to the myriads of contradictory comments on both sides of the fence. You know something I massively disagree with a lot of the posts on here about 'people knew what they were getting into when they went for the job'. That is complete and utter crap. I come from a film production and games development background and you know something I completely disagree. Turning out a great product and treating your employees well are not mutually exclusive however in this industry it appears to be the norm to behave that way. Kerbal Space Program became a sleeper hit, no one could have predicted that such a fundamentally complex game such as this could become so successful in a market where by and large games are actually designed for the brain-cell lacking amongst us (Call of Duty anyone). When a developer is beginning development on a game, yes, hours are long, money is short however I firmly believe that once that game becomes successful like this has, then the people whom helped it become that way should be rewarded, and handsomely so as without their long hours, hard work, knowledge, creativity, persistence, blood, sweat and tears the game wouldn't have become as successful as it did. If a developer feels they're being treated unfairly there is no trade union to turn to, so yes, we get a lot of unprofessional and quite often as not, emotional outpourings on message boards. We need a change in perception and a change in corporate development culture. Because I love this game so much and I wanted to help so I recently purchased the www.kerbalspaceprogram.space domain and was going to gift it to them because I still had this impression of Squad being a struggling collective of developers who needed all of our support. But this is obviously not the case. It seems that Squad like so many other companies out there has got a sniff of profits and is now involved in massive tax evasion, employment law abuses and unethical behaviour. Not cool, not cool at all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So my question is this: Squad, is any of this true? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DChurchill Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 29 minutes ago, T3Kaos said: So my question is this: Squad, is any of this true? Did you read any of this thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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