Curveball Anders Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 Just now, HoloYolo said: What if they add a new planet, and the only way to get it is if you pay $15 USD. You really want to get that new planet, but are stripped of cash and can't get it. Every other person can, and are having the time of their life on that planet, finding terrain and easter eggs. You see everyone having fun, but you can't. Sure, the majority has it, but what about that one person? Is the commuinity truly 100% happy? Is there no effect even if it's just one person? One person isn't a community. Some of the free mods will require the "gold" planet to work, but the majority will not. And community will never agree on anything anyway. It will just adapt and continue to trundle on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codraroll Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 (edited) I think that, in the current discussion, we aren't necessarily on the same page with regards to what DLC we would like Squad to stay away from. For myself, I want to differentiate between "Content DLC" and "Feature DLC". "Content DLC" is what mods usually offer. More parts, more planets, more resources, etc, relying on the same code as existing parts, planets, resources or what have you. They basically utilize the framework of the game, creates a new class/category of an existing system, and give it to players. To give a very simple example: Taking the existing LV-909 engine from the game, creating a copy, painting the copy purple and providing it for download. Or taking the LiquidFuel resource, creating a copy called "LiquidFuel2" and making copies of LiquidFuel tanks and engines that only work with LiquidFuel2. Content DLC uses the framework that allows, say, fuel tanks and engines to exist in the game, and simply creating more fuel tanks and engines. "Feature DLC" is heavier, and requires entire new additions to the game code. For instance, allowing players to alter and move around the KSC buildings, or create axial tilt, or binary systems or what have you. "Feature DLC" doesn't just connect to the core game mechanics, it expands on them and creates new connections for mods to work with. I don't know if any of you ever played the Rollercoaster Tycoon (RCT) games, but they illustrate the difference perfectly: RCT2 was a brilliant little game, which received two expansion packs. Both of those were of the "Content" variety. Their gameplay was exactly the same as Vanilla RCT2, they just introduced a bunch more rollercoasters, themeing pieces and shops. Functionally, these new rollercoasters, themeing pieces and shops were identical to those existing in Vanilla, just with a different appearance and some different stats. Expanded RCT2 is practically Vanilla RCT2 with a bigger catalog of stuff. Mods could have done exactly the same. In fact, most mods for RCT2 don't require the expansion packs to be installed, since they make no changes to the game's fundamental code. Now, RCT3, on the other hand, approached expansion packs differently. The two expansion packs introduced water parks and zoo enclosures, respectively. Entirely new mechanics that the base game didn't have. This is reflected in how the modding community works with RCT3. You can mod the base game's mechanics, but there are also countless mods for new water slides, new pool textures, new zoo animals, that sort of thing, which require and enhance the expansion packs. The expansion packs introduced completely new features for the modders to work with. Or look at Cities: Skylines. That game's first expansion pack introduced a day/night cycle, as well as adding on tourism and leisure. Modders responded by making tons of new buildings with day/night textures and lighting, as well as a lot of new buildings utilizing the tourism and leisure mechanics. Those mods couldn't have existed without the expansion pack. You pay for the expansion pack, then a new world of mods open up to you, to create hours and weeks of gameplay fun based on the mechanics changes brought on by the expansion pack. A good KSP expansion pack should add an entire new branch of gameplay that mods can't provide alone. The branches don't need much content of their own, as long as they allow mods to expand on them. I too would heartily protest against paid DLC adding new planets or new parts, since mods could do the exact same for free. The code to support planets and parts is already in the game, so in theory you could create infinitely many parts and planets without doing something new. But paid DLC adding something akin to the waterparks of RCT3, or the day/night cycle of Cities:Skylines? I'd be all on board for that. Edited October 10, 2016 by Codraroll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerbal Kommander Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 10 minutes ago, HoloYolo said: What if they add a new planet, and the only way to get it is if you pay $15 USD. You really want to get that new planet, but are stripped of cash and can't get it. Every other person can, and are having the time of their life on that planet, finding terrain and easter eggs. You see everyone having fun, but you can't. Sure, the majority has it, but what about that one person? Is the commuinity truly 100% happy? Is there no effect even if it's just one person? I would contest that you are then trying to "Keep up with the Joneses". Shouldn't the point of the game be to have fun? If you're watching what everyone else is doing and try to emulate their experience, then why not just watch their youtube or twitch videos? If they charge $15 for a planet and a few easter eggs, I promise you won't be the only one without that planet. As much as I am not against paid DLCs, I will not be ripped off either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoloYolo Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 1 minute ago, Kerbal Kommander said: I would contest that you are then trying to "Keep up with the Joneses". Shouldn't the point of the game be to have fun? If you're watching what everyone else is doing and try to emulate their experience, then why not just watch their youtube or twitch videos? If they charge $15 for a planet and a few easter eggs, I promise you won't be the only one without that planet. As much as I am not against paid DLCs, I will not be ripped off either. Good point. I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Iron Crown Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 21 hours ago, Azimech said: I'm glad you're not the admin ;-) 21 hours ago, Kilhmar said: I'm also glad I'm not the admin I'm glad I'm not an admi- oh wait, nuts. 4 hours ago, Andem said: See: Asteroid Day --EDIT-- So, why pay money for something that mods have done not only better but done hundreds of times over? And if the DLC isn't paid, then there is no point in making it DLC. There's a reason there was a whole thread about "Make Asteroid Day Stock" because having it as a free mod was silly. Paid DLCs and free mods are at odds if they do the same things, so you really have to make a decision as to whether quick money or your community means more to you as a company. Not everyone is willing to use mods. Or able to, in the case of the console players. Even among those who do use mods, there is a difference between modded stuff and official stuff. I use mods but play with stock parts mostly, and that means that other players can have a good grasp of my craft just from a look at them (and I with theirs). An official DLC will quickly be considered "stock" in my estimation, and that has value in and of itself. As for your false dichotomy of "quick money or your community", well that's just nonsense. There is nothing wrong with monetizing a product, and no business is going to continue to operate with a shrinking revenue stream (and my guess would be that KSP is in the "long tail" phase of sales by now). It doesn't matter how much money has been made already as that's a fait accompli, what matters is the potential to make money moving forward. There's no harm to the community in releasing KSP expansions, if anything it's a boon to the community as those expansions will help keep long term players interested and draw new players in (beyond providing the revenue to keep the whole thing going in the first place). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andem Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 Quote As many of you know, there's been a lot of debate lately over the topic of DLC and Expansion packs for KSP, so I wanted to try and explain this as clearly as possible now. Bear with me here: As you all know, last week we've been to the GDC, and while we were there, we had many opportunities to think and talk about where KSP is headed, and what we want the full game to be like. I had a growing concern that development was starting to turn away from the course we had planned for it, and there, we realized that that indeed was the case: In our efforts to make the best we can on every area of the game, we were starting to get stuck on very advanced areas of the game, while other areas were (and still are) vastly underdeveloped. Specifically, I saw that we were putting a huge amount of time and effort into resources processing in flight and such, and neglecting the mostly unstarted Career mode section of the game. We concluded that we needed to change our priorities a bit, and reorganize our goals so that we could move forward with development, and improve the most meaningful areas that are in need of attention. It was with these things in mind that I mentioned in Monday's dev live stream that I thought it could be cool if those very advanced features we were getting ourselves into were available on an expansion to KSP, so that the stock game would fit it's intended scope, and these advanced features would still be available to advanced players. That, however, struck a wrong chord across our audience, and several heated discussions started to spread like wildfire. So, to cut to the chase here, let me make a few key points clear, and hopefully try to to settle the discussion: - What I said on the live stream were my own personal ideas, and those were meant in no way as any sort of official announcement on behalf of Squad. It was just me basically thinking out loud. There are no official plans for any sort of post-release project for KSP at this time. - Regardless of the above, there seems to have been a big misunderstanding of what I meant with 'Expansion' in the first place. To me, an Expansion pack to a game is something that is almost a whole other game in itself, not a small pack of content that could have been done as a mod. I would never even think to do something like that, and I sincerely hope no one really thinks we would ever betray our players like that. - And lastly, I realize that it was a big mistake to even bring up this topic, and for that I sincerely apologize. We are not an evil company, and you can rest assured we will do everything we can to make sure the complete version of KSP is as satisfying to everyone as possible, and that it becomes all that we hope it will be, a complete version that you can play for years to come. Thank you for you understanding, and sorry again for all this confusion. I'll do another post soon about what our plans for Career mode are, and the features that are coming up on the coming updates (which will be completely free, of course). Happy Launchings! Cheers This was what HarvestR in response to some backlash from KSP's early days. If this is the type of "expansion" @UomoCapra and @SQUAD s talking about, than they can go right on ahead. But the standard "pay me 15 dollars for this cosmetic or this special creature you whale lol" is not ok. Perhaps we could all look at this a little differently instead of starting another argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benji13 Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 The only thing that I would be willing to pay for would be multiplayer. Everything else would either be a rip off or a mod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadLeo Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 1 hour ago, Andem said: If you let your community die, you lose the people who write good reviews, you lose what is effectively free marketing, Free marketing to a product that has peaked sales and is starting to see diminished returns - hypothetically, i'm not saying that this is the case of KSP at the current stage - is not going to be of any help. DLCs/expansion packs are, on their own, new products aimed to extend the market life of their parent product. Case and point. 1 hour ago, Andem said: Bad example, because this is the first thing that pops up on a google search You don't analyse a case just by reading the first google result to it. Paradox is a top notch company owner of many revered titles, has a thriving community of both players *and modders* and the DLCs are just a part of it all. Of course, there will always be people complaining about it, but, oh well... As I said, developing games is expensive business. If you don't want to buy their DLCs, by all means, don't, they're not required to play the base game, nor are patches and bug fixes released as DLC, they are free, nor they hinder modders from doing what they love. Furthermore, they can be bought on sale and are even included on bundles - Paradox isn't EA. Same with Civilization games and their expansion packs. I don't get why you link DLC/EP with modding death, it's straw man what you are creating there. 2 hours ago, Andem said: Your monetization model is something that should be discussed and long decided before the game even has a playable version Maybe. Maybe not. Since markets are fluid, having a flexible policy towards how to better monetize a product can be financially healthier than sticking to a model no matter what. That is the true value of strategic marketing. 2 hours ago, Andem said: A more effective option for Squad at this point would be to invest time in other projects Which would have costs that would have to be covered with the profit they are making with their current products, not to mention that they would have to either hire more crew or divide the attention of the current crew between KSP and any other project they start. Things aren't as simple as you seem to be picturing them, dude. Anyway, let's just agree to disagree since our opinion on the subject are too divergent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azimech Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 I'm scared the 1.2 release tomorrow is too soon. Very scared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoloYolo Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 32 minutes ago, Azimech said: I'm scared the 1.2 release tomorrow is too soon. Very scared. Even if it's too soon at least it won't end up like 1.1...I still have nightmares. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildcat111 Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, Greenfire32 said: the same way you copy anything else: right click, copy, left click, paste. The steam/steamapps/common/kerbal space program folder? Edited October 10, 2016 by Wildcat111 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andem Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 2 minutes ago, BadLeo said: Free marketing to a product that has peaked sales and is starting to see diminished returns - hypothetically, i'm not saying that this is the case of KSP at the current stage - is not going to be of any help. DLCs/expansion packs are, on their own, new products aimed to extend the market life of their parent product. Case and point. I'd like to see your evidence for these assertions. 3 minutes ago, BadLeo said: You don't analyse a case just by reading the first google result to it. Paradox is a top notch company owner of many revered titles, has a thriving community of both players *and modders* and the DLCs are just a part of it all. Of course, there will always be people complaining about it, but, oh well... As I said, developing games is expensive business. If you don't want to buy their DLCs, by all means, don't, they're not required to play the base game, nor are patches and bug fixes released as DLC, they are free, nor they hinder modders from doing what they love. Furthermore, they can be bought on sale and are even included on bundles - Paradox isn't EA. Same with Civilization games and their expansion packs. I don't get why you link DLC/EP with modding death, it's straw man what you are creating there. If that is your position, there's a nice section where I address that quite well, in bold, even. Look on the previous page. And besides that, If t's the first result on google, it's clearly a hot topic. If they're the gods of DLC and people seem to think that they are going too far with it, maybe it isn't as perfect for them as you seem to think. 8 minutes ago, BadLeo said: Maybe. Maybe not. Since markets are fluid, having a flexible policy towards how to better monetize a product can be financially healthier than sticking to a model no matter what. That is the true value of strategic marketing. Oh so you did address that part... only not at all. When you are talking about making money, "flexible" like you're suggesting it is actually "We have no idea what we're doing" If you want to make money, you should have a business plan. Yes, you should be able to adapt obviously, but you stick to your money making method until it stops working, at which point you move on to a new project or die. 59 minutes ago, BadLeo said: Which would have costs that would have to be covered with the profit they are making with their current products, not to mention that they would have to either hire more crew or divide the attention of the current crew between KSP and any other project they start. Things aren't as simple as you seem to be picturing them, dude. Would you rather Squad never work on another project and die when sales actually do begin to drop off? That's pretty unrealistic mate. Of course making a new product will cost money, but continuing to invest everything in one product will only last you so long. If you intend to maintain profit you have to expand or drop older projects. That's just how it works. 1 hour ago, BadLeo said: Anyway, let's just agree to disagree since our opinion on the subject are too divergent. Fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basic.syntax Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 10 minutes ago, Wildcat111 said: The steam/steamapps/common/kerbal space program folder? exactly this. Select the "kerbal space program" folder, and by whatever method copy/paste it into a new location, taking all sub-folders and files along for the ride. You might want to back it up to a removable drive. And as a helpful hint for the future, feel free to rename the new folder copy to "kerbal space program 113" so you can know what is in there, at a glance. I have no trouble running different versions side-by-side from different folders. KSP uses Steam for distribution, but kindly does not require Steam to be running; you can start KSP by double-clicking on the KSP_x64.exe file. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildcat111 Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 35 minutes ago, basic.syntax said: exactly this. Select the "kerbal space program" folder, and by whatever method copy/paste it into a new location, taking all sub-folders and files along for the ride. You might want to back it up to a removable drive. And as a helpful hint for the future, feel free to rename the new folder copy to "kerbal space program 113" so you can know what is in there, at a glance. I have no trouble running different versions side-by-side from different folders. KSP uses Steam for distribution, but kindly does not require Steam to be running; you can start KSP by double-clicking on the KSP_x64.exe file. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiktaalikDreaming Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 1 hour ago, Azimech said: I'm scared the 1.2 release tomorrow is too soon. Very scared. As I'm writing this it's 10am Tuesday for me, so MY question is, whose 11th October? What time, what timezone? I'm also already at work, finished up my morning wave of BS emails, and won't be home near a KSP capable computer for about 11hours, so I'm not going to do the "soon! soon! now!" thing. I just felt an International community could do with release dates that include some idea of timezone. That said, I'm guessing "when it's ready, some time during Tuesday in Mexico, hopefully." The recent few patches for the pre-release are mostly fine-tuning things. Fixing text fields, balancing parts a bit, that sort of thing. So, I'd say it's releasable without being scary. Azimech should be fine. My only remaining question is which day I should come down with a mysterious one day virus. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katateochi Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 1 hour ago, Azimech said: I'm scared the 1.2 release tomorrow is too soon. Very scared. I'm scared that "tomorrow" is a 24 hour window, during which I might have to sleep and maybe go to work. oh....wait, it's already tomorrow, 1 hour into it, 23 hour window then. 1 hour ago, HoloYolo said: Even if it's too soon at least it won't end up like 1.1...I still have nightmares. 1.1 never happened, it was all just a bad dream....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuzi Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, katateochi said: I'm scared that "tomorrow" is a 24 hour window, during which I might have to sleep and maybe go to work. oh....wait, it's already tomorrow, 1 hour into it, 23 hour window then. Which "tomorrow" are we talking about? Tomorrow is already 15:00 today in New Zealand but tomorrow doesn't start for another 8 hours for French Polynesia... Days with a 47 hour window are the devil (particularly if ReleaseDay Tuesday turns into ReleaseDay Wednesday... I'm glad I have a ticket for the Patience Ferry). Edited October 11, 2016 by Yakuzi timing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBrown247 Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 I get these expansions packs for free since I bought the game while you were still saying there would be no paid DLC, don't I? It would be pretty sad to have legal troubles and all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razark Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 11 minutes ago, JBrown247 said: I get these expansions packs for free since I bought the game while you were still saying there would be no paid DLC, don't I? It would be pretty sad to have legal troubles and all that. Saying "We don't have plans to release paid DLC" is quite different from "We will never charge you a cent for anything else we make related to KSP." It's also different from the promise to make future content available at no charge to users that purchased before a certain date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenfire32 Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 2 hours ago, TiktaalikDreaming said: As I'm writing this it's 10am Tuesday for me, so MY question is, whose 11th October? What time, what timezone? probably the timezone where Squad is located. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andem Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 26 minutes ago, razark said: Saying "We don't have plans to release paid DLC" is quite different from "We will never charge you a cent for anything else we make related to KSP." It's also different from the promise to make future content available at no charge to users that purchased before a certain date. If you read the op you will probably have something very different to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superfluous J Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 42 minutes ago, Andem said: If you read the op you will probably have something very different to say. Which part? The part where they didn't say anything about paying for anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiktaalikDreaming Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 1 hour ago, Greenfire32 said: probably the timezone where Squad is located. Well, yes. Just saying it should be stated, cos we're not all in Mexico. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razark Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 57 minutes ago, Andem said: If you read the op you will probably have something very different to say. I replied to a comment that implied that Squad, or someone with the authority to speak for them, said there would not be any paid DLC, ever. Which is not something Squad ever actually said. Going back to the OP, it says nothing about paid DLC anyway, so... ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 3 hours ago, TiktaalikDreaming said: As I'm writing this it's 10am Tuesday for me, so MY question is, whose 11th October? What time, what timezone? Being located about 1660km south of you, I feel your pain.. 3 hours ago, TiktaalikDreaming said: My only remaining question is which day I should come down with a mysterious one day virus. ;-) Funny.. was just asking myself the same question.. though I suspect it may be a 48 hour virus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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