Model Railroading

[adsii1970]

Go to your local bookstore and look for "Model Railroader" magazine. It's well worth it.

When I do model, I use a fictitious Northern Louisiana & Kansas Pacific Railroad...

[VaPaL]

@Shpaget That's awesome! One thing I notice is the difference from US to Europe models, basically freight vs passenger, later I realized that's because US use railroad predominantly for freight and Europe for passengers.

@Ultimate Steve Been there, mine table is probably lying somwhere in the back of my father's office. Will see what is left of it some day.

@TheKosanianMethod Thanks, I will look it up!

@Cydonian Monk So I've done some research, the railroad that passes through my city is the FCA (Ferrovia Centro-Atlântica) propriety of VLI (Valor Logística Integrada). Their main freight are soybean, ore, alcohol, fertilizer and sugar. Almost, if not, 100% of the cars on the yard are theirs, but there is also a Raízen's alcohol distribution center that uses the same railroad, but their cars don't stay in the yard (for some reason). I still need to do some more research on how exactly the railroad freight system works here.

Anyway, I don't want to be completely realistic with my model, I want to expand the railroad usage. So I identified some industries that may benefit from a larger railroad infraestructure. My city has a very strong commerce, so merchandise would come through the railroad. The region agriculture is predominantly sugar cane, so there are a lot of sugar cane processing facilities. They produce and outcome of sugar and alcohol. The neighbor city produces a lot of machinery for these facilities, so steam turbines and boilers, for instance, could also be delivered by rail. The region nearby is famous for it's coffee productions, so it can also use the railroad. Theses way, there would be a great variety of cars (hopper, box, flat and tank) a a lot to do with them. There is also three quarries, some wood production for paper and cellulose and some other industries, though this produces a lower volume of cargo.

Even though we don't have passenger railroads (with 2 exceptions and metropolitan train/metro) I would like to implement it, if I find a plausible way to do so.

I don't know if I will be able to implement it all, but this is a start, and now I have a more objective plan. Let's see what I can do, when I draw an layout I post it here.

Thanks for all the help so far  

[adsii1970]

That's the great thing about model railroading. Basically there are three types of model railroaders - the "prototype" where everything has to be proper, in the proper era for the style of locomotive, those like me who enjoy "freelance" railroading where we create our own world, and those that don't really care one way or the other.

On my fictitious line, which is set in the mid 1990s, there is NO AMTRAC which means that the NL&KP also has passenger trains. With the fictitious line comes the plans for fictitious geography - that way I can highlight different industries and scenarios for the railway. I also have some specific industries I plan to model just to highlight railroad operations - a coal mine, some farms, a small manufacturing area, and an oil distribution center.

On 10/24/2016 at 7:30 AM, VaPaL said:

So I've done some research, the railroad that passes through my city is the FCA (Ferrovia Centro-Atlântica) propriety of VLI (Valor Logística Integrada). Their main freight are soybean, ore, alcohol, fertilizer and sugar. Almost, if not, 100% of the cars on the yard are theirs, but there is also a Raízen's alcohol distribution center that uses the same railroad, but their cars don't stay in the yard (for some reason). I still need to do some more research on how exactly the railroad freight system works here.

Anyway, I don't want to be completely realistic with my model, I want to expand the railroad usage. So I identified some industries that may benefit from a larger railroad infraestructure. My city has a very strong commerce, so merchandise would come through the railroad. The region agriculture is predominantly sugar cane, so there are a lot of sugar cane processing facilities. They produce and outcome of sugar and alcohol. The neighbor city produces a lot of machinery for these facilities, so steam turbines and boilers, for instance, could also be delivered by rail. The region nearby is famous for it's coffee productions, so it can also use the railroad. Theses way, there would be a great variety of cars (hopper, box, flat and tank) a a lot to do with them. There is also three quarries, some wood production for paper and cellulose and some other industries, though this produces a lower volume of cargo.

[edited by adsii1970 for relevant content]

From what you've written, you've already identified some key industries you want to model. This is great because it helps you to define the layout - track, geography, town setup, main lines, and industry spurs. It also dictates the kind of rolling stock you put on the track. As an example, my fictitious railroad actually "occupies" a line that connects the UP and the BNSF railways - which allows for rolling stock for just about any industry to appear on the layout and NOT look out of place.

You're off to a great start... and I am hoping you'll share your ideas with us...

[VaPaL]

@adsii1970 I think I find myself between the 'prototype' and 'freelance', I want to make an 'improved reality'. Something that is realistic, works as it would but it's expanded from what we have now.

The region that a choose is to small IRL for that much of trains operations, but it won't appear in the model and will provide a lot of regional identifications for viewers. The pictures below is the region in question. The numbers are the height, in meters, of the cities and lines are the connection needed.

Spoiler

The northeast region produces coffee, as you can see by the dark green area around Franca. The south region focus is sugarcane. Ribeirão Preto is a city with a population of about +650k, it's economy is based on commerce and services with little industrial activities, though it's where the IRL Railroad passes, sou the yard will be there. Sertãozinho is a small insdutrial city, with 120k pop. Usina São Martinho is the worlds biggest sugarcane processing facility. Pedregulho is almost a village, with 15k pop. but holds the coffee Co-op. I changed my mind about São Joaquim da Barra .

Sertãozinho produces stram turbines and boilers for sugarcane processing facilities, so they will deliver that to Usina São Martinho (USM). USM produces sugar and alcohol, alcohol will go to Raízen in Ribeirão Preto (RP) a distribution center) and sugar to CEAGESP, a warehouse in RP. Pedregulho will send coffee grains to CEAGESP and Café Utam, a coffee brand, both in RP. RP will also replenish it's commerce with cargo coming from outside (don't know how yet).

There are some other smaller and/or local operation that I can implement, as wood delivery to International Paper (more or less same distance from RP as Pedregulho, but southeast of RP) and there are also some quarries nearby.

The problem I'm facing right now, that I've decided what to do, and have a little more knowledge of how trains work is with the track layout itself. I don't know how to do it so it doesn't look boring.

This is the yard so far:

Spoiler

I read somewhere that you need one classification. I tried to use what @Cydonian Monk teached me about lead, radius and sizes. I think I have everything in there, but I'm not sure. Dimensions are im milimeters.

So, what you guys think so far?

[adsii1970]

9 minutes ago, VaPaL said:

@adsii1970 I think I find myself between the 'prototype' and 'freelance', I want to make an 'improved reality'. Something that is realistic, works as it would but it's expanded from what we have now.

The problem I'm facing right now, that I've decided what to do, and have a little more knowledge of how trains work is with the track layout itself. I don't know how to do it so it doesn't look boring.

I read somewhere that you need one classification. I tried to use what @Cydonian Monk teached me about lead, radius and sizes. I think I have everything in there, but I'm not sure. Dimensions are im milimeters.

So, what you guys think so far?

[edited by adsii1970 for content]

Yard looks good but you might want to increase your turn-around radius. I use N scale (1:148); so using your yard's design, I would have a 100 cm turn around. I run some large intermodal cars (Gunderson double-stack container cars) and tighter radii simply mean it looks bad if the curves are too tight. Remember, it is OK to have a yard as the focal point of your layout. this eliminates having to have a turn-around right at the end of your station.

It also helps to define the space you intend to use for your layout and what scale you intend to use. The larger the scale, the more space you need to achieve your dream. And another word of advice since my last layout - always give yourself at least one expansion point... this will allow you to add more should you gain more modeling space.

Right now, I have all my rolling stock but no layout. An ex-wife liberated it from me as payback, to keep the story simple. So, since then, I have been focusing on learning the basics of digital command control so I can program routes, functions, etc. of the locomotives I plan to use. Been also designing a livery scheme to support the layout once I begin to build it.

As long as the aesthetics please you, that's the important thing. Don't worry about it being boring to others. If it offers you excitement and you enjoy playing operating it, then it is worth the time designing it.  K

[Cydonian Monk]

@VaPaL I basically agree with what @adsii1970 above. The new yard design looks like it'll work better for what you're after. I do still have some concerns with the radius of the loop, but again it might be ok for smaller 4-axle engines with nothing coupled to them. I'd strongly suggest setting up a similar sized loop on the floor or a table and test some locomotives on it before you allocate space for it. 

[adsii1970]

@Cydonian Monk - did @VaPaL ever tell you what scale is planning to be used?

[Cydonian Monk]

4 minutes ago, adsii1970 said:

@Cydonian Monk - did @VaPaL ever tell you what scale is planning to be used?

HO. In the first post. 27-30cm is half of what I'd even consider as a minimum for a loop like that, but not technically impossible (for some edge cases). 40cm is a bit more manageable, but still badly limiting. 

Edited October 25, 2016 by Cydonian Monk

[adsii1970]

In HO, a 30 CM loop is pretty tight - if he is using larger passenger cars, or based on his rough ideas for the region served, he couldn't run a lot of the larger European standard cars. Not only would it look incredibly awkward, but it would also limit his detailing abilities inside the loop to allow for car clearance.

What about using an under-the-table kidney bean? have the track go through the yard as a southbound mainline, then curve slightly with a downgrade until it goes under the table. Make the loop as wide as the table and as long as it needs to be to double back up and become the northbound line, but parallel to the southbound (just used N and S for purposes of clarification of the suggestion) into a double-mainline into the yard?

[VaPaL]

@Cydonian Monk @adsii1970 I did some research and changed the radius to 56cm. I was looking in the site Cydonian linked and all railoads have minimum radius around 24". I forget to mension that the leads would follow the main by the extensions needed and have run arrounds (don't know if both).

About the rest of the layout, I want it to be more interesting for me, I can go much further than a square layout with some 'ondulations' on the track. I wanted something like this or this. Not the double deck though. Size is not a problem, I will probably build a shed (?) for it, and I have some good size outside. Anyway, I looked for inspiration IRL and other models, but when it comes to design mine, I can't go much further. Don't know if it just a question of time for a good idea or lack of creativity. One think I tought in adding is a 'yard' (forget the proper name) hidden with a lot of rolling stock, to simulated freight coming from outisde the region, don't know if it's a good idea.

10 minutes ago, adsii1970 said:

What about using an under-the-table kidney bean? have the track go through the yard as a southbound mainline, then curve slightly with a downgrade until it goes under the table. Make the loop as wide as the table and as long as it needs to be to double back up and become the northbound line, but parallel to the southbound (just used N and S for purposes of clarification of the suggestion) into a double-mainline into the yard?

That's a good idea, but I'm trying alternative to this, since the region don't offer good 'excuses' for tunnels. It's not flat, but almost.

[adsii1970]

1 minute ago, VaPaL said:

@Cydonian Monk @adsii1970 I did some research and changed the radius to 56cm. I was looking in the site Cydonian linked and all railoads have minimum radius around 24". I forget to mension that the leads would follow the main by the extensions needed and have run arrounds (don't know if both).

About the rest of the layout, I want it to be more interesting for me, I can go much further than a square layout with some 'ondulations' on the track. I wanted something like this or this. Not the double deck though. Size is not a problem, I will probably build a shed (?) for it, and I have some good size outside. Anyway, I looked for inspiration IRL and other models, but when it comes to design mine, I can't go much further. Don't know if it just a question of time for a good idea or lack of creativity. One think I tought in adding is a 'yard' (forget the proper name) hidden with a lot of rolling stock, to simulated freight coming from outisde the region, don't know if it's a good idea.

A hidden yard can be a part of the under the table kidney bean. Just expand the kidney bean the full length of the table and run spurs off it to form a yard. This way, it's out of sight, under the table, but make sure you leave about 10 cm of clearance between the table and the kidney bean to allow you to reset rolling stock that can come unaligned from the track. Don't be so quick to dismiss the double deck as it can hide the more unsightly utility needs of model railroading, including storage yards.

 

[VaPaL]

5 minutes ago, adsii1970 said:

Don't be so quick to dismiss the double deck as it can hide the more unsightly utility needs of model railroading, including storage yards.

I see, will rethink about that! Other concerns that I have are about tracks and rolling stock. We have only one manufacturer here (http://www.frateschi.com.br/site/index_eng.php?page=home_eng) the models are good in my opinion, but they are only analogue and with this strange couplers, if I by the 'working part' of the loco (engine, couplers, wheelset, etc) from US/EU the 'outside part' will fit? (assuming they are both the same model of loco)

Also, there's little track options, we don't have curved switches, long switches, 3-way switches, etc, it will also fit? I believe this is standart, but just to double check.  

[adsii1970]

19 minutes ago, VaPaL said:

Also, there's little track options, we don't have curved switches, long switches, 3-way switches, etc, it will also fit? I believe this is standart, but just to double check.  

Let me share the Bible of Model Railroading: https://www.walthers.com/

They ship world wide... but be careful. They have been known to offer so much stuff you'll not have enough money to order carry-out pizza. Last time I made an order, I spent nearly $400. It was like celebrating Christmas in July!

[VaPaL]

7 minutes ago, adsii1970 said:

you'll not have enough money to order carry-out pizza

That is certainly true!

There is so much stuff also that I'm completely lost, for sure some sutff will come from there, unfortunately they don't have Brazilian locos and rolling stock  

Here everything is more expensive than US, but all rules have their exception! But undoubtedly the quality is superior. Thanks for sharing  

[Shpaget]

3 hours ago, adsii1970 said:

In HO, a 30 CM loop is pretty tight - if he is using larger passenger cars, or based on his rough ideas for the region served, he couldn't run a lot of the larger European standard cars. Not only would it look incredibly awkward, but it would also limit his detailing abilities inside the loop to allow for car clearance.

While I agree that tight curves look weird and often ugly, keep in mind that one of the largest model railroad manufacturers in the world (Marklin) offers r=360 mm as their tightest curve in one product line (C-track) and r=295 mm in another (K-track), and that the curved switches have r=360 mm as their inner radius (437 mm for standard switch).
There are certain locos that will not run on those tight curves, but they are exceptions and clearly marked in the catalog. Pretty much every Marklin piece of rolling stock performs satisfactorily on properly placed track (properly connected track and gradual inclination change). Granted, most of Marklin passenger cars are not true 1:87 in length, they are shortened a bit, but even exact models ride well on those tight curves. They do look weird when the middle of the car cuts the corners, though.

Which brings us to realism... there is none on the model layout. If you tried to make a layout with realistic curves, you would quickly run out of room, so we are forced to make concessions, even if we go down to N or Z scale.

Not related to my previous ramblings, but just to add to the thread, this is a small Z scale oval I made for the counter in our little brick and mortar store. Kids who visit (and myself) can push a button and the train then goes around the layout for a few laps, then stops at the station, ready for the next button press.

It's under glass, so it requires surprisingly little maintenance. I don't remember when was the last time I cleaned the track, but it was before last December, so almost a year now, without cleaning! At that time it got a new, better, locomotive and a few more cargo cars to pull around.

The silver circle front and center is the button that initiates the layout.

 

[VaPaL]

@Shpaget Cool man, I don't think I can handle (literaly) N scale, let alone Z scale.  

I saw some moving cars in a video on your site, there is a specific system for that or it's just rails and magnets undeneath the table?

[Shpaget]

The system we use is somewhat similar to Faller Car System - there is a steel wire in the road and the cars follow the wire. All the electronics (digital decoder and stuff) is in the car.

Position sensors are embeded in the road and instructions are sent to cars via infra red LEDs mounted on the ceiling.

At the moment we are working on an overhaul in an attempt to power the cars via induction coils under the road, since the batteries are the weak spot. They take too long to charge and don't last long enough. This way we would be able to run them as long as we please.

[VaPaL]

I found my old layout!!!! Photos: http://imgur.com/a/aXktz

It's smaller than I remenbered, but everything is there, but the layout is kind dull, I'm thinking in redesigning it with what I already have first, then start a new one. It was on the 'intermediate section of the manufacturer layout guide for begginers, all tracks are rigid, it's analogue (we still don't have DCC). I have 3 locos, 3 passengers cars and for cargo 1 box, 1 hopper, 1 gondola, 1 flat, 1 refeer and 1 double-stack car. Now I know why my train never looked like a proper train . I made a moutain, you can see were it goes in the track layout (marked with pen) or in a region at the bottom right with no grass.

[Shpaget]

It looks like a decent layout for shunting and playing around.

Was it ever operational?

[VaPaL]

@Shpaget Yes, it was operational for 3 or 4 years, but I never finished the scenery and always treated it like a toy. It was very fun to operate, but I never properly finished the panel, so going through the middle was gave me problems. And since it's not fully double tracked, you cannot have 2 trains on it, or one running and other on the yard. I'll see what I can change without adding anything, but probably it will be more or less the same. I will post here what I end up with

[VaPaL]

And this why I never worked really well, the tracks doesn't connect in 3 places, by 5, 7 and 19mm. I managem to rearrange some tracks to reduce the bigger to 15 but still too big. I will probably have to buy some flexible tracks to properly fix this.

Spoiler

 

[The Raging Sandwich]

This thread has inspired me to start doing this again. Thanks! 

[VaPaL]

@The Raging Sandwich Cool man! Hope you share your ideas and progress here  

[VaPaL]

So... I changed the layout a bit. removed the second track, since it had no porpuse, added to industries, a yard feed and changed the location of the yard, engine house and car shop. This is the final result, what you gauys think?

@Shpaget @adsii1970 @Cydonian Monk

 

EDIT: I used the tracks that I already have, the ones in the bottom are leftovers that I couldn't fit anywhere

Edited October 27, 2016 by VaPaL
Spelling

[Shpaget]

You've removed the track that crosses from top left to bottom right that allows you to reverse the direction, something that I consider a nice feature. You did get rid of the requirement for reversing mechanisms, something I don't completely understand, working almost exclusively with Marklin, which is immune to those issues.

You still have a lot of room for shunting and playing around.