will physics and aerodynamics ever be fixed?

[ErgionThorn]

well, i guess im not the only one hating the tripping over swinging crafts that fly like being attached to a string defying any real physics, imo before any graphical changes or more parts etc these things should have priority. I know aerodynamics just have got an overhaul but i think it was rushed as its absolutely not working, though its closer to realistic than the old one but it has so many flaws its just unplayable.

pls squad, i dont want any other things in ksp, its good as it is with the parts and gameplay it has just fix the physics...

[The Aziz]

nuff said.

Remember, stock game is meant to be fun, not too realistic.

[Superfluous J]

If you want to simulate real physics, any time your craft behaves like that delete it because it would have exploded in reality.

[adsii1970]

20 minutes ago, The Aziz said:

Remember, stock game is meant to be fun, not too realistic.

[edited by adsii1970 for content I wish to comment on]

Exactly. It is a game that has been produced for our amusement. Many people seem to forget this... And as that great all-things-kerbal philosopher, @Snark has said in the past, "there's a mod for that..."

[Gaarst]

27 minutes ago, ErgionThorn said:

its just unplayable.

Please.

[MaxxQ]

29 minutes ago, ErgionThorn said:

well, i guess im not the only one hating the tripping over swinging crafts that fly like being attached to a string defying any real physics, imo before any graphical changes or more parts etc these things should have priority. I know aerodynamics just have got an overhaul but i think it was rushed as its absolutely not working, though its closer to realistic than the old one but it has so many flaws its just unplayable.

pls squad, i dont want any other things in ksp, its good as it is with the parts and gameplay it has just fix the physics...

I'm sorry.  Where on the tin does it say it's supposed to have realistic physics and aerodynamics?  I must have missed that, because I'm having a blast (no pun intended) with the physics and aerodynamics as they are.

[Atlas2342]

1 hour ago, ErgionThorn said:

I know aerodynamics just have got an overhaul but i think it was rushed as its absolutely not working, though its closer to realistic than the old one but it has so many flaws its just unplayable.

Color me confused.

Edited December 11, 2016 by Atlas2342

[ErgionThorn]

16 minutes ago, adsii1970 said:

Exactly. It is a game that has been produced for our amusement. Many people seem to forget this... And as that great all-things-kerbal philosopher, @Snark has said in the past, "there's a mod for that..."

well, if you can be amused by this its you having issues not me.

9 minutes ago, MaxxQ said:

I'm sorry.  Where on the tin does it say it's supposed to have realistic physics and aerodynamics?  I must have missed that, because I'm having a blast (no pun intended) with the physics and aerodynamics as they are.

I know people who can have a blast with cow poo, that doesnt make it a viable option for me. stop trolling!

Edited December 11, 2016 by ErgionThorn

[Kombat engineer]

its not the physics or the aerodynamics to blame its the Almighty space Kraken who will cause you to fail if you dont sacrifice a kerbal or if you have snacks a rocket filled with snacks.

[brdavis]

The physics are horribly broken? Huh... As a PhD that teaches university-level physics and has built 100-level labs around KSP... I'd have to say I'd disagree.

You may see the aero model as a fatal flaw... but many of us seem to enjoy playing the game just fine in stock, and if we want something beyond stock... add in any number of advanced mods. Improved aero isn't even in my personal "top ten" list for KSP... and a lot of what was previously on the list (working radio with occlusion and range, resources in some form, better scanning, complex fairings) has been added in.

If "playing with cow poo" isn't a viable option for you... don't play with cow poo. Many of the rest of us seem to be just fine with it

Edited December 11, 2016 by brdavis
spelling

[HebaruSan]

1 hour ago, ErgionThorn said:

well, i guess im not the only one hating the tripping over swinging crafts that fly like being attached to a string defying any real physics, imo before any graphical changes or more parts etc these things should have priority. I know aerodynamics just have got an overhaul but i think it was rushed as its absolutely not working, though its closer to realistic than the old one but it has so many flaws its just unplayable.

pls squad, i dont want any other things in ksp, its good as it is with the parts and gameplay it has just fix the physics...

FYI, saying that something is "not working" or "just unplayable" is an ineffective way to draw attention to it. Developers mentally click "ignore" immediately when they see you have not expressed any concrete complaints and don't even realize it.

Plus it's kind of rude and entitled-looking. You're demanding that they spend weeks or months glued to their computer screens all day, running test cases and having meetings and debugging code to make you happy, but you can't even be bothered to take a single screenshot or type a short description of any specific problem? If it's as broken as you say it is, demonstrating it should be trivially easy. How can they satisfy your demands without knowing which changes would help?

[Starhawk]

Removed a couple of posts in the interest of keeping the forum an environment for respectful sharing of viewpoints.

[foamyesque]

What exactly is a "tripping over swinging craft", anyway?

[Snark]

Several posts in this thread have been removed, again.

Just a friendly reminder:

• Expressing criticism of the game is fine.
• Expressing a dissenting opinion is also fine.
• However, being openly disrespectful to fellow forum-goers, is not.  See forum rule 2.2.d.
• Deliberately "trolling" in an attempt to provoke a reaction is also not okay.  See forum rule 2.3.b.
• Responding to a post that's trolling you isn't actually against the rules (if you're otherwise following all the rules)... but it's a bad idea and doesn't help anyone, so please don't do it.
• If you observe someone whom you believe is breaking one of the abovementioned rules, or any other, please don't try to call them on it, or quote rules at them.  This is considered "backseat moderating" and may itself be actionable (see rule 3.2).  Instead, please just report the post and let the moderator team decide what action, if any, is needed.  It's what we're for.

Okay, re-opening for discussion.  This is a contentious thread (which is okay) that has already steered outside the acceptable lines (which is not).  Therefore, please remember to be respectful of your fellow forum-goers, including those who have opinions that differ from your own.  I trust that we can all behave ourselves like civilized adults, and that it won't be necessary to lock this thread permanently.  (Well, perhaps "hope" would be a better word than "trust", at this point.)

Thank you for your understanding.

[ZooNamedGames]

Yay it's alive again.

@ErgionThorn, I'm honestly confused as although the physics isn't 100% on par with reality, but from nearly 4 years of experience, this is realistic enough. The fluttering you mentioned I haven't seen since the old "infiniglide" days.

I am trying to understand here and I *think* this may be in fact a troubleshooting issue and not a game fault.

[ErgionThorn]

1 minute ago, ZooNamedGames said:

Yay it's alive again.

@ErgionThorn, I'm honestly confused as although the physics isn't 100% on par with reality, but from nearly 4 years of experience, this is realistic enough. The fluttering you mentioned I haven't seen since the old "infiniglide" days.

I am trying to understand here and I *think* this may be in fact a troubleshooting issue and not a game fault.

i answered you but it was removed... i have had a fresh install on steam with no mods at all and a newly started career game, and its not one craft or just planes but every craft, no matter if rocket or plane or just a brick thrown. i have myself nearly 4 years of experience with ksp too and built many things, flown many things, big and small, and gigantic, i can get over the wobbling of parts etc (that actually improved a lot during the past years) but how currently all the crafts are flipping over again and again like if trust vectors would be in 90 degrees compared to the original vectors is not funny, or when lifting start working the opposite way (yayyy, pull it up, pull it up! i do pull it up, i dont know why we are turning downward) etc etc etc are not funny. now ive decided to reinstall and to make a few videos about it... not like if it wouldnt work the same way for everybody...

[Tex_NL]

4 minutes ago, ErgionThorn said:

now ive decided to reinstall and to make a few videos about it...

Please do so everybody can clearly see what you're doing right or wrong.

4 minutes ago, ErgionThorn said:

not like if it wouldnt work the same way for everybody...

Since for everybody the stock game is the same it SHOULD work the same for everybody.
If 999 players can and 1 can not, I am sorry to say, that 1 person must be doing something wrong.

Edited December 11, 2016 by Tex_NL

[Snark]

5 minutes ago, ErgionThorn said:

i have had a fresh install on steam with no mods at all and a newly started career game, and its not one craft or just planes but every craft, no matter if rocket or plane or just a brick thrown. i have myself nearly 4 years of experience with ksp too and built many things, flown many things, big and small, and gigantic, i can get over the wobbling of parts etc (that actually improved a lot during the past years) but how currently all the crafts are flipping over again and again like if trust vectors would be in 90 degrees compared to the original vectors is not funny, or when lifting start working the opposite way (yayyy, pull it up, pull it up! i do pull it up, i dont know why we are turning downward) etc etc etc are not funny. now ive decided to reinstall and to make a few videos about it... not like if it wouldnt work the same way for everybody...

Sorry to hear that you're having problems getting things to fly.  KSP can certainly be challenging!  And I think we can all understand what it's like to be frustrated by "why won't this darn plane fly."

It's worth noting, though, that plenty of people manage to fly planes successfully in KSP, so it's not "unplayable"-- just that there are a lot of design guidelines to follow, and stable spaceplane flight is notoriously tricky.

If you're having trouble getting your planes to fly, probably the best approach is to post over in Gameplay Questions, providing specific details:  for example, give a screenshot of your plane, and describe the specific nature of the trouble with it.  (For example, "flies like cardboard" doesn't really help people understand; something like "it goes fine up to speed X, but is very unstable on the pitch axis after liftoff", or similarly detailed description, is more useful.)  Then people can provide constructive feedback on what the problem is that you're running into, and how to work around it.

[ZooNamedGames]

5 minutes ago, ErgionThorn said:

i answered you but it was removed... i have had a fresh install on steam with no mods at all and a newly started career game, and its not one craft or just planes but every craft, no matter if rocket or plane or just a brick thrown. i have myself nearly 4 years of experience with ksp too and built many things, flown many things, big and small, and gigantic, i can get over the wobbling of parts etc (that actually improved a lot during the past years) but how currently all the crafts are flipping over again and again like if trust vectors would be in 90 degrees compared to the original vectors is not funny, or when lifting start working the opposite way (yayyy, pull it up, pull it up! i do pull it up, i dont know why we are turning downward) etc etc etc are not funny. now ive decided to reinstall and to make a few videos about it... not like if it wouldnt work the same way for everybody...

Crafts flipping over sounds like aerodynamic instability. Try adding fins to the base of your rocket and turning more slowly. The days of just doing 90 degree turns at 15km no longer work. Try turning slowly. I have a rule of turning 5 degrees for every 2.5km of altitude I gain. So from launch I turn 5 degrees, then at 2.5km I turn to 10 degrees, 5km 15, 7.5km 20, 10km, 12.5km 15, and so on. At 35km you should be nearly even with the terminator (the separation between the blue and red portions of the navball) which will allow you to coast into orbit.

If you can livestream I can provide live commentary about what you may be doing wrong and how to fix it.

[DD_bwest]

Honest advice:

If your rockets are flipping over n over, you've got 1 of 2 things wrong.    Either your rocket is unstable and to light and draggy at the front,  or you are trying to steer to hard while in to dense an atmosphere.

[panzer1b]

Now im not gonna pretend to be an aerodynamics expert or anything, and i know KSP stock isnt perfect, but at least most things that would have worked IRL will fly in KSP to some extent.  Thats why i like stock KSP aero, if you make something look semi plausible it will work, and stock KSP still allows some degree of sci-fi creativity (not quite managed to make a SSTO cruiser/carrier class capital ship yet but im working on it).

As for the floppy rocket problem, i have to say ive never actually had to deal with it.  The trick is to not make very tall things and use as few parts in the stack as possible to keep it structurally rigid.  That and moar struts never hurts so if its really wobbly and cant be redesigned, place struts in the right spot and it should be better flying.

[HebaruSan]

2 hours ago, Snark said:

• If you observe someone whom you believe is breaking one of the abovementioned rules, or any other, please don't try to call them on it, or quote rules at them.  This is considered "backseat moderating" and may itself be actionable (see rule 3.2).  Instead, please just report the post and let the moderator team decide what action, if any, is needed.  It's what we're for.

Sorry. I did that because it looked like a case of sincere ignorance that any rules existed, and it didn't feel fair to jump to reporting in that circumstance.

Back on topic, rockets flipping is actually a sign of improvements in the aerodynamics compared to older versions. So the answer to this post's titular question is, "Yes, in version 1.0.0." I can understand why it would be frustrating for someone who hasn't taken the trouble to re-learn that element of the game.

[ErgionThorn]

2 hours ago, Tex_NL said:

If 999 players can and 1 can not, I am sorry to say, that 1 person must be doing something wrong.

except its not 999 vs 1, there are plenty of others right on this very forum complaining about many aspects of the physics still being flawed. ive built plenty of crazy planes, my latest to be a weird x-wing of some sort and they fly, they are just not flying like they would irl. like touching the pitch up makes it pitch up for a moment just to start its nose swinging up and down. now, while its annoying it would be acceptable when you have sas. most likely fatal when you dont.
or rockets ive just managed to take to mun with 3 crewmembers barely on tech 3, sadly they have landed with the last drops of fuel so no return until higher tier but twice out of 4 launch it went out rolling over and the bad is not that its rolling over, that happens with an unbalanced design, the bad is that it keeps spinning around its horizontal axis and not even around the com. now it should either turn around and fall back, then its drag would be wrong or start spinning around its com but this is just out of reality.
its rather about that ppl take many things as their own fault even if it flies once fine and trips over the other time

 

2 hours ago, DD_bwest said:

or you are trying to steer to hard while in to dense an atmosphere.

well, this is what mostly happens with rockets except i dont have to steer hard (well, with keyboard there is no other way as its not an analog, there is only full turning or no turning) but i just wanna make a tiny, few degrees initial turn around 6-7000 and it makes the rocket tripping over unstoppable. now with nearly every rockets that are not just a single line of fuel tanks and pod on top with some big winglets on the bottom this happens so i just have to fly straight up until that stage is over or reach the space and then i can navigate. and the sad is that most people just swallow this like his own fault and say, ohh well, i have to learn to fly in ksp, tho' its really ksp's flaw, those rockets should fly like arrows just because of their huge momentum... i still manage to go to anywhere in ksp, this is not that challenging game some wanna claim, this is a very intuitive game so with pure logic everything can be flown (just like panzer1b said) but these problems can turn down quickly those who cant accept every flawed solutions. after 400 hours, at least for me, these are flaws i cant look over, thats why in the op post i was asking to get this fixed.

also landed crafts on wheel, fully braked, keep sliding even uphill in random directions

planes are jumping or rolling of the runway

one thing anybody can try even with stock planes. choose a bigger, heavier one with front winglets. take off, keep flying straight, when its stable just touch the down pitch, then the up pitch (obviously with keyboard, i dont have joy but it should work with keyboards too) simulating like doing little corrections in elevation. what should happen is that when you pitch up or down, the plane slightly change direction up or down. instead in ksp its like hitting the top or bottom of the plane with a huge hammer, it raise its nose suddenly then dropping back and if its a big enough plane it will start swinging up and down... i dont even need to make a video of this, im 100% sure it works like this for everybody.

 

[foamyesque]

Almost everything you say is the result of aerodynamics and occurs to actual planes and rockets that screw up their designs IRL.

 

Except the uphill wheel slides. Those don't.

[DD_bwest]

13 minutes ago, ErgionThorn said:

except its not 999 vs 1, there are plenty of others right on this very forum complaining about many aspects of the physics still being flawed. ive built plenty of crazy planes, my latest to be a weird x-wing of some sort and they fly, they are just not flying like they would irl. like touching the pitch up makes it pitch up for a moment just to start its nose swinging up and down. now, while its annoying it would be acceptable when you have sas. most likely fatal when you dont.
or rockets ive just managed to take to mun with 3 crewmembers barely on tech 3, sadly they have landed with the last drops of fuel so no return until higher tier but twice out of 4 launch it went out rolling over and the bad is not that its rolling over, that happens with an unbalanced design, the bad is that it keeps spinning around its horizontal axis and not even around the com. now it should either turn around and fall back, then its drag would be wrong or start spinning around its com but this is just out of reality.
its rather about that ppl take many things as their own fault even if it flies once fine and trips over the other time

 

well, this is what mostly happens with rockets except i dont have to steer hard (well, with keyboard there is no other way as its not an analog, there is only full turning or no turning) but i just wanna make a tiny, few degrees initial turn around 6-7000 and it makes the rocket tripping over unstoppable. now with nearly every rockets that are not just a single line of fuel tanks and pod on top with some big winglets on the bottom this happens so i just have to fly straight up until that stage is over or reach the space and then i can navigate. and the sad is that most people just swallow this like his own fault and say, ohh well, i have to learn to fly in ksp, tho' its really ksp's flaw, those rockets should fly like arrows just because of their huge momentum... 

yea yu arent flying right for a proper aerodymanic model. going up 7km then turning is going to produce a massive amount of aerodymanic pressure pushing on the sides of your rocket, making it flip.   also, you need to make it more stable by moving weight to the front.    your going to want to do a PROPER gravity turn before you reach 50 m/s

if your not doing things right, tou cant complain about things being broken.