Development Update for Consoles!

[HebaruSan]

21 minutes ago, SQUAD said:

In other news KSP on consoles is looking great as we approach the January release. The last builds are very stable and it’s getting more difficult for testers to find serious issues. The test team however are always up for a challenge, and they have been working hard at finding bugs, albeit minor ones, which have been fixed this week. An example include a minor bug that was triggered when zooming in and out in one specific controller preset with the reticle unlocked and it caused a momentum that kept the camera moving towards or away from the object even after the buttons were released.

Early next year confirmed!

[flying turd]

very nice this is

[Leopard]

hoping this works, if shortly after release we see the sort of issues the previous version had - i.e. stuff thats obvious to anyone who actually plays the game for a length of time there is going to be serious egg on face

[LegendaryAce]

19 minutes ago, Leopard said:

hoping this works, if shortly after release we see the sort of issues the previous version had - i.e. stuff thats obvious to anyone who actually plays the game for a length of time there is going to be serious egg on face

If legal action doesn't come first. Though I really hope that will never happen. I'm going to be cautiously optimistic. 

[Mako]

11 hours ago, LegendaryAce said:

If legal action doesn't come first. Though I really hope that will never happen. I'm going to be cautiously optimistic. 

I'm not sure what kind of legal action you think would be possible. It's not against the law to sell bad games. It's not like the console version wouldn't start at all from the moment you got it. Credit card companies often provide some method for customers to "charge back" purchases that retailers refuse to refund. That's probably the best (and probably the only) option customers would have in this case besides hoping Squad delivers a better version.

Until recently, software returns/refunds was mostly unheard of on any opened products. With the advent of online digital distribution many things have changed and refunds have only now become a possibility for consumers. As far as I'm aware this still isn't common with Microsoft's or Sony's online stores. If the retailer says no refunds, I'm not sure you can do anything beside talk to your credit card company. Software is often expressly sold "As-is" with no warranties, guarantees, refunds, or liability on the part of the retailer.

It's a "Buyer Beware!" situation in the software world, and progress has been slower to change that than in some other industries/markets. And if wrong about any of this I'd love to hear about it. I like nothing less than spouting misinformation because I've let myself be ill-informed.

Cautious optimism is pretty much the best you can do. I'm cautiously optimistic too.

[James Kerman]

I am optimistic that the new console versions will be a success.  I believe Squad got duped by the original porters (Flying Tiger) and Bitworks seems to be a far more reputable company.  The bug squashing news from Squad has been positive and I will buy the console version as soon as it is released, for my kids.

That said, users who have already bought it have a right to be salty - it has been a long wait.

2 hours ago, Mako said:

And if wrong about any of this I'd love to hear about it

In Australia we have the Trade Practices Act which makes it illegal to sell or rent out a product that fails to perform in the manner it has been advertised.  This overrides any legal document (i.e. any EULA or disclaimer) you have accepted in the terms and agreements.   I'm quite sure most western countries have similar legislation to prevent advertisers and producers from overstepping boundaries.

While I wouldn't advise anyone to begin legal action over a $40 game, in Australia you have that recourse available to you.

[Cpt Kerbalkrunch]

1 hour ago, James Kerman said:

I am optimistic that the new console versions will be a success.  I believe Squad got duped by the original porters (Flying Tiger) and Bitworks seems to be a far more reputable company.  The bug squashing news from Squad has been positive and I will buy the console version as soon as it is released, for my kids.

Same here. I'd very much like to get my kids into KSP, and off of whatever FPS crap they're currently into (at present the new CoD; in which a certain, rather notorious, emblem has somehow been erased from from history). However, they are allowed to touch my insanely expensive laptop the same way they're allowed to drive my car around a parking lot; with me sitting nervously beside them, ready to take over at the slightest hint of trouble; and wondering why I agreed to something so crazy in the first place.

[Mako]

1 hour ago, James Kerman said:

In Australia we have the Trade Practices Act which makes it illegal to sell or rent out a product that fails to perform in the manner it has been advertised.  This overrides any legal document (i.e. any EULA or disclaimer) you have accepted in the terms and agreements.   I'm quite sure most western countries have similar legislation to prevent advertisers and producers from overstepping boundaries.

First, I just want to say that people have every right to be angry, frustrated, upset, disgruntled, disappointed, and/or otherwise feeling negative about the whole situation. I sincerely hope that will begin to turn around in roughly two months time for most/all of the folks affected.

Nice to know about Australia. Thank you. Under the Trade Practices Act, what would happen if a product works as advertised, but only a few times before it fails (i.e. KSP console version save games)? There are other bugs, to be sure, but that seems to be the big "show stopper" that keeps many people from being able to enjoy the game for more than a few play sessions. Other than that big one, it mostly seemed to me like lesser bugs that could have possibly been patch-able if the whole thing had not needed to be rebuilt from scratch. I'm curious if consumer protections would cover the specific case of KSP console versions.

I am not aware of any consumer protections against software that isn't made well, at least here in the USA. The consumer protections for physical goods here seem a bit more developed than those for digital good, at least. I think some, maybe all, members of the European Union have better consumer protections than here in the United States, but I can't recall any specifics off the top of my head.

Maybe there is something that would cover software here or abroad, but as you pointed out it would be ill-advised to attempt a lawsuit over a $40 entitlement and I'm not sure if you could make much of a case for further recompense for damages. I'm fairly certain just filing the paperwork in a courthouse here in the state of Maryland would cost more than the $40 you might get back.

[James Kerman]

2 minutes ago, Mako said:

I'm curious if consumer protections would cover the specific case of KSP console versions.

(Disclaimer - I am not a lawyer and I love Squad and all the people who brought KSP into the world.)

If the game doesn't do what Squad said it would then you clearly have a case under the TPA which also includes legislation of implied warranty.  It is a faulty product as anyone reading this thread would know.

As to the specifics of who you would be ultimately liable - that is the million dollar question (and likely to cost as much to just find that out). 

[Mako]

8 minutes ago, James Kerman said:

If the game doesn't do what Squad said it would then you clearly have a case under the TPA which also includes legislation of implied warranty.

Fair point. In this specific case, Squad has been continually trying to fix the product for all customers since the release, although it has taken quite some time and we're still two months away from that fix (again, cautiously optimistic). Does the TPA allow for some (reasonable) time frame within which Squad would have to replace the product and/or refund the purchase price before a customer could sue? I'm far from a lawyer myself, and I'm wholly unfamiliar with the TPA, so I may be way off base about the consumer protections provided under the TPA.

[Deddly]

Mates and shielas, I think the TPA is probably a subject for the Lounge

[AVaughan]

I'm far from an expert, but the most I expect a private citizen to get under the Trades Practices Act for something like KSP is the ability to force the retailer to refund your purchase.  (Even there it is probably easier, simpler and faster to get your credit company to do a charge back).  If the company attempts to mislead consumers about their right under Australian Law they might also get fined (and possibly ordered by the courts to run ads and/or display signs detailing consumer rights under Australian Law). 

It is not clear that a court would consider that KSP is defective enough that Squad/Microsoft/Sony should be forced to offer refunds.  I don't own a console version, but since it does run, and you can play (build and launch rockets) a court might decide that the game mostly works.  There is also a concept of getting what you paid for.  Does the game do everything Squads advertising claimed?  Do you as a consumer get entertainment value from KSP?       

[Cpt Kerbalkrunch]

3 hours ago, Deddly said:

Mates and shielas, I think the TPA is probably a subject for the Lounge

Whoa. Another Aussie on here? Good deal. My odds just doubled. Do me a favor, would ya? The next time you or @James Kerman find yourself in Melbourne, please tell Emily Browning I am her devoted slave. Thanks. 

[OrganizedChaos]

Now that we know when we are getting this update and it’s not too far off,  I’m curious if we will download as a patch or if we will have to delete the old version and  re-download it.  They said it was basicly scrapped and started over with Blitzworks.    I may do it anyway just in case,  I don’t want anything that FT touched with this game  to come into contact with Blitzworks version. (It may create a black hole the game never returns from).

[Deddly]

I believe it was confirmed that this will be a completely new download that replaces the old one, @OrganizedChaos

[NoahThomas29]

On 11/27/2017 at 11:00 AM, Deddly said:

I believe it was confirmed that this will be a completely new download that replaces the old one, @OrganizedChaos

Probably better that it is a completely new download. Would be quite weird to try and patch the old port with the new port.

[Sunburn22]

15 hours ago, NoahThomas29 said:

Probably better that it is a completely new download. Would be quite weird to try and patch the old port with the new port.

how would that work? would we need to uninstall the game and get the next one from the store, or would we just install another update?

[DD_bwest]

thats an interesting topic, i wonder how it will be handled.

I always figured it would be a new download, with the possibility of a small update download on the old version that forces a pop up when starting the game telling you to go to the store and download the new version.

[Ineedaweapon]

The problem with a brand new download would be that you’d be able to keep the old version while still having the new version, which is something I would assume they’d be trying to avoid.  I don’t really know anything about how updates work, like whether or not they can completely erase or replace old content.  If they just slapped the new game on top of the old the file size would be twice as big, though its only 2.5GB right now which isn’t particularly huge.  I’m curious to see how they end up doing it.

[DD_bwest]

"Meanwhile, the QA team has been deeply involved with Consoles these past weeks. Alongside the external test team, all aspects of the game have been tested over and over, bugs found, fixed, tested again, rinse, repeat. We’ve been keeping our developer friends at Blitworks very busy, and they are doing a admirable job in return. The number of issues that are being found has dropped steadily. Thankfully they are scarce now, but we are very aware of how imaginative and demanding our players are, and rightfully so, that every mad scenario that we can think of is being checked. The team is also ensuring that all Trophies/Achievements work as they should, so you completionists can add KSP to your 100% completion list, too. This has taken quite a significant amount of time from the testers, since it means that someone has to go and get them all to see if they can be achieved."

 

this weeks update

[Cheif Operations Director]

Does anyone know how KSP Consoles will be released? For Example will it be a entire new game, or a Update. Also if it's a new game will data from KSP Colsoles be transferable to the new game or not? Thanks if you know and should you know please cite the release so I can read all the details for my self. I've already asked this in the Weekly but I want to post it here where it might be seen more. 

[Cheif Operations Director]

On 11/27/2017 at 12:00 PM, Deddly said:

I believe it was confirmed that this will be a completely new download that replaces the old one, @OrganizedChaos

 

On 11/27/2017 at 11:58 AM, OrganizedChaos said:

Now that we know when we are getting this update and it’s not too far off,  I’m curious if we will download as a patch or if we will have to delete the old version and  re-download it.  They said it was basicly scrapped and started over with Blitzworks.    I may do it anyway just in case,  I don’t want anything that FT touched with this game  to come into contact with Blitzworks version. (It may create a black hole the game never returns from).

@Deddly can you please cite so I can see the release by SQUAD,

@OrganizedChaos This is true Flying Tiger did an awful as porting the console version, HOWEVER forcing a redownload might be a problem for those on Xbox One, I say this because from Personal Experiance Xbox One is more stable than PS4 for Kerbal. I've played both. With Xbox I would say it is playable but can be GREATLY Improved upon (I know about 1.2) Anyways with Xbox One I've been able to play the game to a point where I wouldn't want to lose my data and I'm sure I'm not alone, that being said my save files are deleted themselves before and I recognize that will eventually happen again (to be cynical) but if a UPDATE could come before a new download that would be preferred atleast for me... Thoughts? 

Edited December 2, 2017 by Cheif Operations Director

[0111narwhalz]

4 hours ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

Thoughts?

You can probably find the save files and pull them out for backup. Assuming things haven't radically changed with the way savegames work, they should just be text files that you can then place into the appropriate directory in the new install.

[Cheif Operations Director]

4 hours ago, 0111narwhalz said:

You can probably find the save files and pull them out for backup. Assuming things haven't radically changed with the way savegames work, they should just be text files that you can then place into the appropriate directory in the new install.

Ok sounds good but I'm only physics savvy not tech savvy so what in the world are you talking about lol

[0111narwhalz]

7 hours ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

Ok sounds good but I'm only physics savvy not tech savvy so what in the world are you talking about lol

In the PC/Mac/Linux versions, there's a folder (or directory) called Saves. It contains all the save data. I'm not sure how open the new consoles are as far as files go, but if you can move files about you can pull all that save data out and put it on a flash drive. When the Blitworks version is released, you can then move the files from the flash drive back into that folder (in the new version, obviously).

Presumably you can do this kind of thing, because there's been talk of backing up saves on flash drives to safeguard against corruption.