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Spacetraindriver

By Spacetraindriver
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kerbiloid

kerbiloid

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, YNM said:

Many folk songs don't even have an author.

Every song has an author. Just nobdy cares about him.

6 minutes ago, YNM said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultivation_System

I have no doubt in human greed, but even if boss made to gather every seed, he cared about total amount, unlikely about recipe inventions.

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adsii1970

adsii1970

Posted
Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

@adsii1970, can you please explain the way how did the ancient shepherds invented the recipe of the most expensive coffee in the world?-

Version 1.
Did they follow every skunk and macaca tasting every found piece of caca?
"Look! That civette just made a surprise. Let's taste it. Wow! Yummy! Let's use this in our cuisine."

Version 2.
Did they gather every seed of coffee found around?
"Look! That ferret just made a surprise! Look-look! There are two coffee seeds inside let's extract and wash them, they are so tasty."

Version 3.
When you bake your bread, fry your meat, boil your tea on a dry dung fire (no other fuel at all), you see nothing special in this.
But you won't of course gather every piece of substance after skunks, ferrets, macacas, civettes just to taste it.
But if you :
make medicines from the stuff you have at hands (including the fire ash, of course),
and suddenly see that the civettes do like your goats do: they eat coffee seeds and leave their remains in their product,.
then you just add 1 to 1 and get 2: this predator's things would add more magic to the ash (like leopard skin, lion teeth and so on if wear them), and of course this medicine should cost more.

  Reveal hidden contents

... and let your ancestors living 1000 years later get lulz telling the tourists how do they make this precious.
They just don't know how the other coffee was first done.

Tip. Rural people usually do usual things. They usually hate beat dislike people doing unusual things. Using ferret surprises for food, even frying them first, is a rather unusual thing. Even for a desert.

@kerbiloid:

As I mentioned before, I spent an entire year as a graduate research assistant and during that time, I helped a professor who was doing massive amounts of research on the cultural exchange regarding coffee. And believe it or not, there are A LOT of things about coffee we don't know. But there is also A LOT of things about coffee we do know. The Ethiopians (ancient people of Cush, known as the Cush-ites) were great record keepers for their era. They even transcribed stories from the older ancestors, which even by the time of 1,800 B.C.E. were considered as folklore or fable.

Here's what we know about coffee, thanks in part to the records kept by the ancient Cush (who used a writing style very similar to the Egyptians):

  • Coffee and its effects were well known by the 20th century (2,100) B.C.E.
    • The writings provided by the ancient Cush indicate there was an extensive trade network between the Nubians (upper Egypt) and the Cush by the time of the first Pharaoh of Egypt's Third Dynasty (Zozer or also spelled Djeser ). This is confirmed by Egyptian hieroglyphics.
    • The Egyptians used the berries, but did not eat them in the "natural state." They actually removed the seed or seeds (depending on the variety) and allowed the fruit to dry, much like a raisin. The Egyptians were already drying similar fruits, such as plums and grapes.
    • The Egyptians also followed the customs of the ancient Cush and the Nubians. The seeds were difficult to grind unless they were dried out. So, they were dried out and ground into a coffee powder, very course, like corn meal. The ancient Cush would then add olive oil, a type of oat or barley flour, and then add the coffee flour. It was then cooked on a stone and eaten.
    • Some of the seeds were not dried completely. These were taken and crushed (like garlic) and then added to a flask containing water and a fermentation agent, such as yeast. Yes, the Egyptians were some of the first beer brewers on the planet. But can you imagine coffee beer? And this is essentially what they were making.
    • The ancient world realized that most "food" also has medicinal qualities. And teas were made. The medicinal effects of coffee were known by the Egyptians by around 1,400 B.C.E. because there are texts that indicate it could not be seeped, like many of the teas used, but had to be boiled. Once boiled, it was mingled with honey and given to those who suffered from a variety of ailments, such as lack of stamina, upset stomach, and even headaches.
    • The Nubians began cultivating their own coffee (from plants traded for other goods) around 1,800 B.C.E. And this is where the story gets even stranger. Instead of just trading the berries and seeds, the Nubians began trading plants to other African civilizations, including some along the western coast and India.
  • West African cultivation of coffee will begin sometime in the 19th century (1,800) B.C.E. And this is where things get really strange. Coffee_Tea_04.jpg
    • Not as rocky and arid as Ethiopia and Nubia, the west African civilizations experience the largest gain from coffee. It literally becomes one of the top trade items, much the way the American Indians in South America trade in cocoa beans.
    • The seed is worshiped as a gift from the fertility gods... I've dropped an image of a pile of coffee berry seeds to the right. The older crowd can look at the seed and figure out why... At this point, some of the tribes along the Ivory Coast began to "hurry" the drying process of the seed by roasting them in a large pan to remove the excess moisture. Once dry roasted, the coffee seed flour could be easily ground and stored.
    • Just as with most medications and herbal remedies, because of its resemblance I mentioned above, the tribes along the Ivory Coast associated it with fertility. A drink was made by boiling the seed powder, adding milk (and sometimes it was human milk), offering this to the gods or goddesses, then consuming the rest.
    • Some tribes did not have access to stones needed to grind the seeds into powder. Once they are dried, they are difficult to crush (and is why most of today's coffee grinders have steel blades). Knowing that digestion softened the seed and most animals could not break the seed down... the softened seeds were harvested from cat scat (poop). But this isn't surprising. These early people knew that poop was already harvested from grazing animals and used for fuel sources. It was understood in many places in Africa and in South America around the same time that the bovine family poop made good fuel. Sometimes the straw was harvested out of the poop and would be woven into wicker, since the digestive enzymes had already softened the grass stalks. 
  • And we haven't even gotten to the cultural exchange of the 16th century, C.E. This is roughly when the Spanish and Portuguese brought coffee to South America!
12 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

But if you :
make medicines from the stuff you have at hands (including the fire ash, of course),
and suddenly see that the civettes do like your goats do: they eat coffee seeds and leave their remains in their product,.
then you just add 1 to 1 and get 2: this predator's things would add more magic to the ash (like leopard skin, lion teeth and so on if wear them), and of course this medicine should cost more.

It really isn't surprising. There's a lot about the past we get wrong. The ancient Chinese, around the same time, were harvesting reptilian scales (I think the legends of the Chinese dragons as well as the European legends of dragons were the remnants of dinosaurs), the bones of long dead humans, cat poop, ashes of dead things burned, and other things for use in their practices of medicine. Every ancient culture did this. I do not understand your complaint about this. Even today, we see a large part of the population who would rather use herbal and homeopathic remedies than anything that comes from big pharmacy.

12 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

... and let your ancestors living 1000 years later get lulz telling the tourists how do they make this precious.
They just don't know how the other coffee was first done.

These ancient people, with the exception of the Egyptians, didn't care about legacy. They did what they did to get by. And this is true about most people through time. But in the civilizations that did care to preserve things through writing, it gives people like me the ability to make the study of history my vocation.

12 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

Tip. Rural people usually do usual things. They usually hate beat dislike people doing unusual things. Using ferret surprises for food, even frying them first, is a rather unusual thing. Even for a desert.

Yes, as the saying goes, necessity is the mother of invention. And in each case we see innovation in foodstuffs happen, one (or more) of the same circumstances exist:

  • A suppressed population forced to make do on what is available to them because of their conquerors, competing tribes, or masters.
  • Severe drought or crop blight causing famine in a region.
  • New and previously unknown diseases.
  • Newly discovered plant or animal in a region - and normally, the first question humans ask is "can we eat it?"

 

Edited by adsii1970
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qzgy

qzgy

Posted
Posted
17 minutes ago, adsii1970 said:

the first question humans ask is "can we eat it?"

Not "Will it kill me and how quickly?"

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DarkOwl57

DarkOwl57

Posted
Posted
21 minutes ago, adsii1970 said:

 

  • Newly discovered plant or animal in a region - and normally, the first question humans ask is "can we eat it?"
 

Really? If it's an animal, my first thought is "Aww, hey there cutie!" (Followed by: "Wait, why are you coming closer very menacingly? Uh....." *runs*). If it's a plant, I think, "Okay, if I haven't seen this in a survival magazine, chances are I shouldn't touch it... or should I?"

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adsii1970

adsii1970

Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, qzgy said:

Not "Will it kill me and how quickly?"

 

2 minutes ago, DarkOwl57 said:

Really? If it's an animal, my first thought is "Aww, hey there cutie!" (Followed by: "Wait, why are you coming closer very menacingly? Uh....." *runs*). If it's a plant, I think, "Okay, if I haven't seen this in a survival magazine, chances are I shouldn't touch it... or should I?"

Oh, ok... The second question asked, then. So... Is it going to hurt me? Followed by " can I eat it?"

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YNM

YNM

Posted
Posted (edited)

Full clap for @adsii1970 !

But yeah. As the son of an astronaut said, Western Science!™ with all its Western Norms® only exists in the West. Elsewhere, it's whatever people are used to. When the land is full and resources slight, everyone has to be clever - they diverse. A lot of food or norms here comes partly from the hardship we faced during colonial eras. We utilize parts you westerners would mostly consider as scrap, like the bones or the innards of animals. Getting food from the jungles, like trees or tubers or insects. Using substitutes that you won't consider. Sure these "tricks" have been used before; but it probably wasn't something used often before the times.

My mother once assisted in gathering data for the fao (or world bank or ibrd something) in the corners of our neighbor island. One of the determining question (definitely devised by westerners) was the consumption of beef.

Of course we don't ! We have plenty of fish and what have we !

 

(sorry if "westerners" might sound too touchy - we're talking something 10 to 2 or 3 generations ago)

Edited by YNM
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adsii1970

adsii1970

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, YNM said:

Full clap for @adsii1970 !

But yeah. As the son of an astronaut said, Western Science!™ with all its Western Norms® only exists in the West. Elsewhere, it's whatever people are used to. When the land is full and resources slight, everyone has to be clever - they diverse. A lot of food or norms here comes partly from the hardship we faced during colonial eras. We utilize parts you westerners would mostly consider as scrap, like the bones or the innards of animals. Getting food from the jungles, like trees or tubers or insects. Using substitutes that you won't consider. Sure these "tricks" have been used before; but it probably wasn't something used often before the times.

My mother once assisted in gathering data for the fao (or world bank or ibrd something) in the corners of our neighbor island. One of the determining question (definitely devised by westerners) was the consumption of beef.

Of course we don't ! We have plenty of fish and what have we !

Please be careful with the whole "you Westerners" thing.  I've travelled around the world and have eaten all kinds of things from bugs to what you're describing. When I visit foreign lands, I always eat "indigenous" foods. Its the best way to learn about people and other customs.

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YNM

YNM

Posted
Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, adsii1970 said:

Please be careful with the whole "you Westerners" thing.  I've travelled around the world and have eaten all kinds of things from bugs to what you're describing. When I visit foreign lands, I always eat "indigenous" foods. Its the best way to learn about people and other customs.

Well, westerners at the dawn of colonization. I'm well aware of the british curry houses, rijsttafel and probably some filipino stuff in the US.

 

Still, I bet you won't eat flying termites... (TBH I won't either XD)

Edited by YNM
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adsii1970

adsii1970

Posted
Posted
36 minutes ago, YNM said:

Still, I bet you won't eat flying termites... (TBH I won't either XD)

Of the insect variety, I have eaten grubs, earthworms, ants, termites, crickets, and one place had roasted giant roaches...

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Kernel Kraken

Kernel Kraken

Posted
Posted
15 minutes ago, adsii1970 said:

Of the insect variety, I have eaten grubs, earthworms, ants, termites, crickets, and one place had roasted giant roaches...

*Pukes* what. 

*Sees roach* *runs away screaming at ~1,500 Hertz*

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adsii1970

adsii1970

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, TheMadKraken2297 said:

There are a lot of people saying that bugs could cure world hunger, but I have first world problems. Mainly insectophobia and arachnaphobia.

If you get hungry enough... You'll eat your pet gerbil...

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Just Jim

Just Jim

Posted
Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Vanamonde said:

Why is no one complaining about anything in the complaint thread? :mad: 

Back to the topic, please. 

Hmmmm... people were just commenting on roaches... OK, got it...

Blehhh!!! I hate roaches! Florida has these monster mutant "Palmetto Bug" roaches... look like a Xenomorph's housecat!!!

Man, I HATE Florida roaches!!!

Grrrrr............. :mad:

Edited by Just Jim
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NSEP

NSEP

Posted
Posted

I don't want to infest this thread of politics, but some of my fellow classmates somehow manage to mistake the German and Soviet anthem. How? Seriously? How? Thats like mistaking eagles as chickens!

I have got to be honest though, i bet nobody in class isn't addicted to national anthems, as much as i am.

13 minutes ago, Just Jim said:

Hmmmm... people were just commenting on roaches... OK, got it...

Blehhh!!! I hate roaches! Florida has these monster mutant "Palmetto Bug" roaches... look like a Xenomorph's housecat!!!

Man, I HATE Florida roaches!!!

Grrrrr............. :mad:

I live in the place from the Lorax so nature can't annoy me.

Except for mosquito's

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qzgy

qzgy

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Just Jim said:

Oh, don't even get me started on Florida Mosquitoes!!!  

YUCCHHHH!!!!!  :mad:

See, I think living in a colder place is nicer cause the cold makes everything creepy/crawly/insecty quite dead.
Complaint - Humdity sucks. Its the worst kind of hot.

Edited by qzgy
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adsii1970

adsii1970

Posted
Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, Just Jim said:

Hmmmm... people were just commenting on roaches... OK, got it...

Blehhh!!! I hate roaches! Florida has these monster mutant "Palmetto Bug" roaches... look like a Xenomorph's housecat!!!

Man, I HATE Florida roaches!!!

Grrrrr............. :mad:

Just use a baseball bat instead of a fly swatter. They make a great cracking sound when you hit them. Oh, and those are roaches you don't eat. Ever.

Edited by adsii1970
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Kernel Kraken

Kernel Kraken

Posted
Posted
25 minutes ago, qzgy said:

See, I think living in a colder place is nicer cause the cold makes everything creepy/crawly/insecty quite dead.
Complaint - Humdity sucks. Its the worst kind of hot.

Agreed. That's why winter is my favourite season- everything's cancelled so it's summer, but there's snow and no bugs. Win win win!

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