Did you think that Doctors today have way to much powers over you lives

[Pawelk198604]

I have asperger despite i was originally diagnosed with ADHD later changed to Asperger, but i find that individuals with Asperger or ADHD are subject to additional testing and exams, aviation exist long before ADHD was ever described and even more before autism was fully understand i beet it's planty of pilots in old times with Asperger or ADHD only now it become problems!

I think doctors have way to much influence over time, i found very sad story about early American astronaut who was grounded because he had some minor glitch with heart, somehow it's was no problem in days when ha fight pedant during WW2 or later when i was admitted to original 7 American Astronauts, but some stupid doctor grounded him  

He eventually flew on Apollo-Soyuz mission  

[Bill Phil]

Deke Slayton?

While he was grounded he was the Director of Flight Crew Operations.

[Steel]

4 minutes ago, Pawelk198604 said:

I have asperger despite i was originally diagnosed with ADHD later changed to Asperger, but i find that individuals with Asperger or ADHD are subject to additional testing and exams, aviation exist long before ADHD was ever described and even more before autism was fully understand i beet it's planty of pilots in old times with Asperger or ADHD only now it become problems!

I think doctors have way to much influence over time, i found very sad story about early American astronaut who was grounded because he had some minor glitch with heart, somehow it's was no problem in days when ha fight pedant during WW2 or later when i was admitted to original 7 American Astronauts, but some stupid doctor grounded him  

He eventually flew on Apollo-Soyuz mission  

For jobs where a small medical mishap could endanger the lives of many others (i.e pilots, astronauts e.t.c), I think it is right that doctors can stop people if they think it might be unsafe, however unfair it seems.

 

The astronaut you mention is Deke Slayton, who was grounded (quite rightly) because he had an irregular heart rhythm. He spent years after he was grounded trying to get back into active service, so he cut out smoking and drastically reduced his alcohol and caffeine intake and his heart condition got a lot better, so he was allowed to fly again.

[Pawelk198604]

2 minutes ago, Bill Phil said:

Deke Slayton?

While he was grounded he was the Director of Flight Crew Operations.

 

1 minute ago, Steel said:

For jobs where a small medical mishap could endanger the lives of many others (i.e pilots, astronauts e.t.c), I think it is right that doctors can stop people if they think it might be unsafe, however unfair it seems.

 

The astronaut you mention is Deke Slayton, who was grounded (quite rightly) because he had an irregular heart rhythm. He spent years after he was grounded trying to get back into active service, so he cut out smoking and drastically reduced his alcohol and caffeine intake and his heart condition got a lot better, so he was allowed to fly again.

Thanks for both of you, i forgot his name, he was chief astronaut despite he never fly into space.

But i think that decision to ground him was a bit lame, because docs already knew that, during early recruitment, so they can fire him earlier, and he was kind of WW2 hero he flew many combat mission during it, so he had right to have some heart problems.

 

But what do you think about Ken Mattingly original CMP of Apollo 13, the grounded guy for nothing  

  

[Steel]

1 minute ago, Pawelk198604 said:

But what do you think about Ken Mattingly original CMP of Apollo 13, the grounded guy for nothing  

  

The Ken Mattingly one is tough. However, the doctors couldn't risk him catching German measles in space (even if it was unlikely), because he might not have been able to perform his duties during the rendezvous with the LEM, which could have endangered the lives of the two astronauts in it.

[Green Baron]

7 minutes ago, Steel said:

*snip* drastically reduced his alcohol and caffeine intake *snip"

Man am i glad i don't have any heart disease. But i can't fly either, i step on things in the dark if they don't shout out loud or get out the way.

:-)

OP, no i don't think doctors have too many powers. I only visit one if i need one. Also, after the case of that Germn pilot who flew his airbus into a mountain in France, i find it absolutely right that doctors can be released from the medical confidenciality in certain cases.

[tater]

Unsure how to answer---my wife is a doctor, so she has a lot of power over my life

Regarding ADHD, a friend of mine who is a child psychiatrist (which is an actual doctor, not a psychologist) says that she can literally diagnose anyone with ADHD. Suffice it to say she thinks it's mostly nonsense.

[Pawelk198604]

3 minutes ago, Green Baron said:

i find it absolutely right that doctors can be released from the medical confidenciality in certain cases.

So is as i was think doctors are sellout and governments snitches  

Who next lawyers, maybe even someday even Catholics priests, the seal of confession would be no meaning for them!   

[tater]

Breaking patient privacy would be a HIPAA violation in the US, and would get them sued into oblivion.

[razark]

3 hours ago, Pawelk198604 said:

...because docs already knew that, during early recruitment...

Do you have a source for that?  Everything I've seen says that his condition appeared after his selection as an astronaut.

He was on flight status, he had a medical condition, he was grounded, the condition ceased to exist, he was put back on active flight status, and he flew.  Same with Ken Mattingly.  And Alan Shepard.

Isn't it better to be on the safe side, rather than risk loss of mission, vehicle, and/or crew?

 

Based on your comments and your other thread, I'm thinking you might be taking too much of a personal look at it, rather than an objective one.

[YNM]

Physical medical conditions can change over time. Doctors are advisor and sometimes fixer - the only one who can change what physical medical condition you're having is yourself, though sometimes it's not enough and everyone can have mishaps in their health.

Regarding psychological disorders I'm not very sure how they are, their nature only being slowly and properly understood lately, so I can't really comment. In any case, with their position as advisor and fixer, along with other jobs that goes in the same position, people don't hear them because they know everything - people hear them because they might give the most insight. What to do next upon that depends on the person itself. In worlds where the lives of many depends on the few, they rarely takes risk - hence they'll "heed more" from experts from other fields they might not fully understand (in case of health, from doctors).

I have an grandmother who have phsycological disorder (I'm not fully aware of the nature), but she actually studied as a doctor. Again, realizing the conditions, most hospital didn't want to hire her, which is sensible. My uncle said that at some point she actually were able to work along with his support, but as he can't continue giving it (having jobs on his own etc) she returned to not be able to do the job.

Final words : even doctors can go sick, and they'll hear other doctors that they're sick and shouldn't be working.

[Nuke]

health insurance companies have way too much influence over out lives. doctors meanwhile dont have enough power to do their job properly. like i went in for my first physical in 20 years and the doctor didnt check anything i didnt bring up myself. apparently they arent allowed to do basic tests that used to be standard anymore unless the patient explicitly asks for it. explains the bass akward nature of pharmecutical ads (the doctor should tell me what i need, not the tv).

aspergers (which every online test on the subject says i have) isnt a thing anymore and is now referred to as an autism spectrum disorder and i no longer fit in that category as a result. adhd which i supposidly also had, was being over applied to troubled kids across the board, usually by an under qualified school counselor. in my adult life i have never had one of these diagnoses confirmed by an actual professional. i blame the schools. a lot of them are only concerned with kids conforming to their standards rather than helping them find their place in the world. its never the doctors calling the shots.

Edited August 26, 2017 by Nuke

[HebaruSan]

In the case of aviation and NASA, doctors have no inherent power. Doctors are asked by institutions to assess the fitness of pilots and astronauts, to protect public safety and safeguard expensive equipment. If a doctor arbitrarily wanted to ground you, but NASA or the FAA decided they no longer cared about doctors' opinions, the doctor would have no way to enforce his will on you.

[Shpaget]

It seems to me that you are mistaken regarding what it is that doctors do when it comes to medical reports concerning aviation and similar professions that require medical exams.

Doctors do not give you a permission or disqualification to do the job. All they do is provide the assessment of your health and it is the employer (or more often the law) that is the one that grants permission or disqualifies an individual for a certain job.

Have you ever seen a blood work report? It usually looks something like this (I'm making these numbers up):

Test	Result	Unit	Ref. Interval	Flag
Iron	273	ug/dl	250 - 450
Cholesterol	301	ug/dl	100 - 200	HIGH
Platelets	175	x10E3/ul	140 - 415
Calcium	9,5	mg/dl	8,7 - 10,2

You see, there is a test and the result for a particular individual, there is also the interval of values that a healthy person should have. If the result doesn't fall into its respective intervals, it is an indication that something may be wrong, like the cholesterol level in this example. Depending on what specific test we are talking about and how significantly the result is outside the normal interval and how that condition may affect an individual in the specific job, the doctor may give his opinion on the person's fitness for the job, but strictly based on the laws and regulations. There is very little room for manipulation. It is the law that says that if you have this condition or that that you are not fit for a certain job.

Of course, when it comes to psychological conditions, it is somewhat harder (or impossible) to put a number on a test and see if it fits in the accepted interval, but that is why psychologists and psychiatrists train for years to detect certain conditions. Yes, some individuals bypass this check one way or another and there are certainly cases where somebody is withheld a license when he shouldn't have been, but those are individual cases that are always going to be present in whatever system you put in place; and I must say that there has to be a system in place to protect the safety of general society. There is no way around that, you just can't allow anybody to fly a plane with 400 people on board without some safety checks.

[Pawelk198604]

3 hours ago, Shpaget said:

It seems to me that you are mistaken regarding what it is that doctors do when it comes to medical reports concerning aviation and similar professions that require medical exams.

Doctors do not give you a permission or disqualification to do the job. All they do is provide the assessment of your health and it is the employer (or more often the law) that is the one that grants permission or disqualifies an individual for a certain job.

Have you ever seen a blood work report? It usually looks something like this (I'm making these numbers up):

Test	Result	Unit	Ref. Interval	Flag
Iron	273	ug/dl	250 - 450
Cholesterol	301	ug/dl	100 - 200	HIGH
Platelets	175	x10E3/ul	140 - 415
Calcium	9,5	mg/dl	8,7 - 10,2

You see, there is a test and the result for a particular individual, there is also the interval of values that a healthy person should have. If the result doesn't fall into its respective intervals, it is an indication that something may be wrong, like the cholesterol level in this example. Depending on what specific test we are talking about and how significantly the result is outside the normal interval and how that condition may affect an individual in the specific job, the doctor may give his opinion on the person's fitness for the job, but strictly based on the laws and regulations. There is very little room for manipulation. It is the law that says that if you have this condition or that that you are not fit for a certain job.

Of course, when it comes to psychological conditions, it is somewhat harder (or impossible) to put a number on a test and see if it fits in the accepted interval, but that is why psychologists and psychiatrists train for years to detect certain conditions. Yes, some individuals bypass this check one way or another and there are certainly cases where somebody is withheld a license when he shouldn't have been, but those are individual cases that are always going to be present in whatever system you put in place; and I must say that there has to be a system in place to protect the safety of general society. There is no way around that, you just can't allow anybody to fly a plane with 400 people on board without some safety checks.

but what if somebody had illness that is "permanently disqualified" but it's cured, but for doctors this is not matter that somebody is cured for many years

Beside most jobs especially in aviation are heavily computerized, so it even in some case not require human input at all  

Even first Yuri Gagarin was driven on automaton and he only get codes for manual override only if something goes wrong.     

[YNM]

25 minutes ago, Pawelk198604 said:

but what if somebody had illness that is "permanently disqualified" but it's cured, but for doctors this is not matter that somebody is cured for many years

That means they're grounded for other reasons. Things change, just because it's not cloudy anymore doesn't mean the air can't be cold.

26 minutes ago, Pawelk198604 said:

Beside most jobs especially in aviation are heavily computerized, so it even in some case not require human input at all  

Even first Yuri Gagarin was driven on automaton and he only get codes for manual override only if something goes wrong.     

If they want to do that, they better ditch the humans.

Also, even if the humans is just there for decoration, havinv them drop dead during the mission would mean bad PR.

[Green Baron]

I don't understand what it is that you want from us. All these "buts" and "what ifs" don't solve your question.

If the disorder you are talking of means a no-go for an aviation license then any further discussion is futile. Go do something else. Many people have to and the world keeps on turning.

If you are unsure then by all means make an appointment for a medical class 3 (PPL), speak with the doctor about your thoughts and see what the answer is. They are no enemies, they do their job and will happily answer any question if they can and tell you about the limits the disorder imposes on you. Perhaps he can even help you with an address of an expert who might further evaluate if you are fit or partially fit or unfit.

[Shpaget]

33 minutes ago, Pawelk198604 said:

but what if somebody had illness that is "permanently disqualified" but it's cured, but for doctors this is not matter that somebody is cured for many years

If somebody is permanently disqualified for medical reasons, then it is because medical practice has determined that the particular condition in question is a lifelong issue. Unfortunately some conditions can not be cured, only kept under control.

33 minutes ago, Pawelk198604 said:

Beside most jobs especially in aviation are heavily computerized, so it even in some case not require human input at all  

Even first Yuri Gagarin was driven on automaton and he only get codes for manual override only if something goes wrong.     

Yes, some aspects of jobs are computerized, but humans are there for the aspects that are not computerized. No company or country would want a liability of knowingly giving a job to someone who has a medical history that could potentially lead to loss of life.

Yes, Yuri Gagarin (just like quite a few other early astronauts) was driven on autopilot because the government, scientists and the doctors were not willing to take a risk of mission failure in case he gets ill during the flight. They wanted to make sure the mission was completed, and Yuri was a guinea pig placed in a life threatening experiment. If he was operating the spacecraft and went ill, died, or just made a mistake that meant he would potentially not be able to return to Earth, the mission would be a total failure. By giving the controls to the computer they made sure (or more likely) that he would return. They wanted him back on Earth in one piece (dead or alive) so they can study him afterwards.

@Green Baron You keep on ninja'ing me.

 

[Kerbart]

16 hours ago, Pawelk198604 said:

(...) aviation exist long before ADHD was ever described and even more before autism was fully understand i beet it's planty of pilots in old times with Asperger or ADHD only now it become problems!

I think doctors have way to much influence over time, i found very sad story about early American astronaut who was grounded because he had some minor glitch with heart, somehow it's was no problem in days when ha fight pedant during WW2 or later when i was admitted to original 7 American Astronauts, but some stupid doctor grounded him  (...)

Just because the understanding of certain conditions has advanced doesn't mean doctors should grandfather everyone with a “new“ condition in “because we never excluded them in the past.”

My son is autistic and will freeze up in certain situations and refuse to do a certain task, even if he can see the benefits for himself by doing that task. He will not do it. Imagine he's a pilot and something like that happens during landing. Some noise sets him off and now he just lets his feelings take over. Then what? 

Your argument is of course “I wouldn't do that,” but as an agency would you risk it? Especially if the pool to pick from is large enough that you can afford to disqualify it? Their argument will be that they don't want to explain a disaster that was caused by something they were aware of, ie. it was preventable. There's a reason aviation is so safe these days, because the rules and regulations are so strict. Autism might not have had a big awareness in the early days of aviation, but so did many health issues that are detected now, and not 50 years ago, and they too can be reasons to ground a pilot.

With space flight the stakes are even higher. Space agencies can afford to exclude even the tiniest risk, the pool to pick astronauts from is large enough in relation to the number they need to demand a perfect health in every single aspect. Because they won't let a multi-billion dollar mission fail because of some medical mishap, especially one they were aware of.

[WinkAllKerb'']

 

hypocrate 25%

hypocryte 75%

feel free to bless the current economics 1929 colonialist on the late inherited model for that lovely approximate caricatural ratio ...

in/out /rant

Edited August 26, 2017 by WinkAllKerb''

[Pawelk198604]

On 26.08.2017 at 2:55 PM, Kerbart said:

Just because the understanding of certain conditions has advanced doesn't mean doctors should grandfather everyone with a “new“ condition in “because we never excluded them in the past.”

My son is autistic and will freeze up in certain situations and refuse to do a certain task, even if he can see the benefits for himself by doing that task. He will not do it. Imagine he's a pilot and something like that happens during landing. Some noise sets him off and now he just lets his feelings take over. Then what? 

Your argument is of course “I wouldn't do that,” but as an agency would you risk it? Especially if the pool to pick from is large enough that you can afford to disqualify it? Their argument will be that they don't want to explain a disaster that was caused by something they were aware of, ie. it was preventable. There's a reason aviation is so safe these days, because the rules and regulations are so strict. Autism might not have had a big awareness in the early days of aviation, but so did many health issues that are detected now, and not 50 years ago, and they too can be reasons to ground a pilot.

With space flight the stakes are even higher. Space agencies can afford to exclude even the tiniest risk, the pool to pick astronauts from is large enough in relation to the number they need to demand a perfect health in every single aspect. Because they won't let a multi-billion dollar mission fail because of some medical mishap, especially one they were aware of.

In another words welcome in GATTACA World  but protagonist put them down easily   

 

And  it is almost certain that both Wright brothers had Asperger's Syndrome, that is, they should not fly because some moron in a white apron think so? 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/carolyn-bass/new-novel-suggests-wright_b_3167940.html

Gentlemen please  

We are maybe clumsy, but we can do many things.

Some time is better lie to doctor than be treated by them like we would be not fully human being   

Edited August 28, 2017 by Pawelk198604

[Chakat Firepaw]

On 26/08/2017 at 6:35 AM, Pawelk198604 said:

but what if somebody had illness that is "permanently disqualified" but it's cured, but for doctors this is not matter that somebody is cured for many years

A condition being "permanently disqualifying" generally means one of three things:

1. Being cured is not possible.
2. It is not possible to be certain one has actually been cured, (as opposed to just going into remission).
3. It is likely to cause disqualifying damage which will continue past any cure.

If things have advance to the point that the reason for something being permanently disqualifying is no longer true, then you can advocate for a change.

[insert_name]

4 hours ago, Pawelk198604 said:

In another words welcome in GATTACA World  but protagonist put them down easily   

 

And  it is almost certain that both Wright brothers had Asperger's Syndrome, that is, they should not fly because some moron in a white apron think so? 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/carolyn-bass/new-novel-suggests-wright_b_3167940.html

Gentlemen please  

We are maybe clumsy, but we can do many things.

Some time is better lie to doctor than be treated by them like we would be not fully human being   

You realize that even if you do manage to  convince your doctor, then you still have to convince the flight instructor that you are capable of flying [snip]

Edited August 28, 2017 by Vanamonde

[Vanamonde]

Please don't make the discussion personal, and keep in mind that not everyone on this forum is a native-English-speaker. 

[qzgy]

I think I have to agree with the majority of people here - the advice of a doctor, who has no criminal or bad intent should be listened to, and therefore, does not have too much power. His/her advice is valuable and sometimes necessary in certain occupations, especially high risk ones like a pilot or astronaut. It would seriously suck if every one in a tin can became sick enough to not fulfill their roles, which are kinda important.