WW2 BAD-T III - BDAc AI Dogfight Tournament

[Van Disaster]

That... is a very confused aeroplane. Apparently wearing a bra, too.

[DoctorDavinci]

18 minutes ago, Van Disaster said:

That... is a very confused aeroplane. Apparently wearing a bra, too.

Gotta be fashionable these days 

[53miner53]

Since everyone else is posting pics, I guess I should too. Weapon loadout is out of date though, as I entered with 7.7mm instead of .50 cals 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0eMT8zRijNmTDJENG9oejRqemc

[SuicidalInsanity]

2 hours ago, Van Disaster said:

That... is a very confused aeroplane. Apparently wearing a bra, too.

True, it's no Bot Drew/UpperProp, but the Zany Bot Design quota has to be filled somehow.

...

Craft certification is done, though some changes were made to some craft to make them fully rules compliant:
-Falcon Mk XII: cockpit radiator panels removed and replaced with proc parts of the same size, shape, and mass
-Rolf 75 Spicypepper: cockpit reaction wheels disabled
-Kestrel 1.F: cockpit reaction wheels disabled, wing tip thickness increased
-AF-292D-Falconet: dry mass increased by 32 kg to meet minimum weight requirement. COM was unchanged
-Slap-Chop: cockpit reaction wheels disabled
-KF 87: Wing thickness increased; A.I.R.B.R.A.K.E.s removed, cockpit reaction wheels disabled

Obligatory group photo:

Some random trivia:
10 single engine fighters and 6 twin engine heavy fighters were entered.
3x Hispanio 20mm was the most common armament.
Only 2 craft use weapons larger than 20mm.
Average craft mass was 4774.4 kg.
Discounting the 40 & 75mm artillery, all Aviator Arsenal weapon calibers (7mm, 12.7mm,13mm, 20mm, 23mm, & 30mm) are represented in craft armament.

[DoctorDavinci]

@SuicidalInsanity - this is fantastic .. might I suggest using 'challonge' as a way of keeping track of the standings?

It's the site @tetryds and I used for the BAD T2 competition (disclaimer - the site that tetryds chose and I just followed along as I was only providing support and running the second tier)

http://challonge.com/

Edited October 15, 2017 by DoctorDavinci

[tetryds]

Yes, challonge is pretty good.

@DoctorDavinci are you running the second tier brackets again?

It's pretty cool that we got many unconventional airplanes, glad to see the "fight bravely and die gloriously" part being taken seriously

[Bob_Saget54]

Hey @tetryds, do you think you could possibly re-forward the updated Falcon Mk. XII with the proc parts or explain how you did them? I've been looking for a more "fluid" method of building cockpits without the radiator parts for quite some time.

[SuicidalInsanity]

2 hours ago, Bob_Saget54 said:

explain how you did them?

Craft reforwarded. As to how, Procedural Wings. PWings can be (ab)used to do some crazy things.

Spoiler

Here's a Jet prototype I was considering entering. There's a Proc nosecone and canopy elements, and a pair of mk0 fueltanks, but the rest of the plane is built out of Proc Wing segments. The Proc settings below are for the selected cockpit segment.

 

Edited October 16, 2017 by SuicidalInsanity

[aleksey444]

18 hours ago, SuicidalInsanity said:

Craft certification is done, though some changes were made to some craft to make them fully rules compliant:

-AF-292D-Falconet: dry mass increased by 32 kg to meet minimum weight requirement. COM was unchanged

Dang it. 

I guess I misread your reply about the weight of air in the intakes and the kerbal.

I actually thought I was a little *over* the limit, but I didn't want to mess with it, because it seemed to make things worse.

BTW, the kerbal weighs 94 kgs.  With an open cockpit, the plane mass increases by that amount when lauched, but with a closed (stock) cockpit, the mass does not increase.  So, maybe make an exception, in the interest of fairness between open and closed cockpits.

However, if you're changing the mass of my plane, could you please change it by increasing the Mass-Strength percentage of the fuel tank?  It's the small b9wing part right behind the seat.  This shouldn't change the CoM.

Thanks!

[tetryds]

@aleksey444 well, on the previois BAD-T versions the judge is allowed to make whichever modifications required to make the craft fill the rules according to what is deemed necessary.

I would take that as a small punishment for breaking a rule.

[aleksey444]

1 minute ago, tetryds said:

@aleksey444 well, on the previois BAD-T versions the judge is allowed to make whichever modifications required to make the craft fill the rules according to what is deemed necessary.

I would take that as a small punishment for breaking a rule.

You're just saying that because our planes are fighting each other in the first round!

[Van Disaster]

Ouch, that is not the easy first fight I was looking for...

[Bob_Saget54]

@Van Disaster I'm in the same boat as you are, my plane was sent back and edited and I found out that it can do a lot better with manuverability

This first battle is going to be very interesting...

[SuicidalInsanity]

@aleksey444: The fueltank was what was modified. As for dry weight, I was interpreting it literally, as empty craft, nothing else. I know Kerbals add 94 kg the the craft when sitting in a command seat, but I view that as a very minor disadvantage to pay in exchange for a cockpit that doesn't weigh 1000 kg.

 

[Van Disaster]

1 hour ago, Bob_Saget54 said:

@Van Disaster I'm in the same boat as you are, my plane was sent back and edited and I found out that it can do a lot better with manuverability

This first battle is going to be very interesting...

I entered this one when literally everything I did to the craft made it worse even though nominally it should be better, so obviously some sort of sweet spot. Overall though all I can say is that there'll be faster craft & ones that turn better, I just hope I can be faster than the turnfighters & outturn the b&zers & not lose to awful piloting

[keptin]

Since the submission period is over, I encourage others to post their craft files so we can optimize our designs against one another for down the road. I'm also curious how mine performs against other designs that it might not get to face.

Here's mine, the Rolf 75 Spicypepper: https://kerbalx.com/keptin/Rolf-75-Spicypepper

[Eidahlil]

I second that, there's never enough planes to test against.

My Wasp Mk3.3: https://kerbalx.com/juzeris/Wasp-Mk33

[Van Disaster]

A little tip to help set fights up easier - turn standby mode on in the hangar, and add Toggle Guard Mode and Activate Pilot to the staging action group. That way you can drop the craft, hit space, and it's ready.

I'll post mine after it's first fight. I couldn't make it do what I wanted, so I doubt there's much to be learned from it.

Edited October 16, 2017 by Van Disaster

[SuicidalInsanity]

Nah, it's even easier than that. The Start Dogfight button in the BDA advanced settings menu automatically starts all the pilots and guard modes of every craft in the area at once. All you have to do is spawn the craft and start the engine.

I'm not going to release the IA-22 Stribog (at least, not yet), but I will release its predecessor IA-21 Teiphesh, as well as Bot Winslow's Z-17 Mantis.

While we're talking refining designs, I'd love to have feedback on the engines - If a BAD-T IV happens at some point, what tweaks would the engines receive? Keep them as they are for quasi-realistic weights and performance? Revert them to how they were (twice as powerful, but around 150% heavier) for a bit more arcade feel? Somewhere in-between?

[DoctorDavinci]

On 15/10/2017 at 6:01 PM, tetryds said:

Yes, challonge is pretty good.

@DoctorDavinci are you running the second tier brackets again?

It's pretty cool that we got many unconventional airplanes, glad to see the "fight bravely and die gloriously" part being taken seriously

I'd be interested in running it but not sure if I will have the time 

 

[SuicidalInsanity]

It begins.

Round 1: @OmegaForce's BT-170 ThornBird Vs. @dundun92's P-57

 

[Van Disaster]

9 hours ago, SuicidalInsanity said:

Nah, it's even easier than that. The Start Dogfight button in the BDA advanced settings menu automatically starts all the pilots and guard modes of every craft in the area at once. All you have to do is spawn the craft and start the engine.

I'm not going to release the IA-22 Stribog (at least, not yet), but I will release its predecessor IA-21 Teiphesh, as well as Bot Winslow's Z-17 Mantis.

While we're talking refining designs, I'd love to have feedback on the engines - If a BAD-T IV happens at some point, what tweaks would the engines receive? Keep them as they are for quasi-realistic weights and performance? Revert them to how they were (twice as powerful, but around 150% heavier) for a bit more arcade feel? Somewhere in-between?

Standby mode puts the brakes on, which is really handy engine running or not

Engines are in a good place, I think. A couple of lighter BAD-T cockpits might be nice, and I've mentioned the jets need a weight break - at least twin jets need one anyway - perhaps all twins get a break & the piston engines get heavier? ( Edit: nope. Just give jets a weight break if you must keep the min weight ). I think a slightly more capable dummy is a good idea too, but I remember that being a little contentious. Aesthetics in a "would this have been used?" sense rather than "does this look like an actual plane" is also another contentious area - it's not like there's no room for bizarre craft, just look at all the wacky British & German stuff of the era ( the US was guilty too, remember that flying saucer? ) - alternatively some broader performance metric than just the dummy hunt. It's easy to minmax these contests ( I'm guilty of that in the past too - one contest didn't require landing, so I just launched on a trolley & dropped the gear but didn't take any skids or any other means of setting down in one piece ) & this one has always felt a lot about providing a spectacle. I don't really care who wins, as long as it looks good

A nice change also would be starting the fights further apart, now we can - BDA doesn't like going over 21km, but at least it'll get out that far ( not suggesting we go that far but it can ) - this would give jets a boost even without any shuffling of weight. Related, perhaps restart a fight if there's a kill before the pairs ( or perhaps one element of the pairs if they've split up a long way ) have passed each other once, judges discretion.

Edited October 17, 2017 by Van Disaster

[Joseph Kerman]

4 hours ago, SuicidalInsanity said:

While we're talking refining designs, I'd love to have feedback on the engines - If a BAD-T IV happens at some point, what tweaks would the engines receive? Keep them as they are for quasi-realistic weights and performance? Revert them to how they were (twice as powerful, but around 150% heavier) for a bit more arcade feel? Somewhere in-between?

Well, get us some SimplePlanes-style fuselages that can be mass-tweaked and edge-tweaked. As well as with the prop engines having rotational torque.

[Van Disaster]

5 hours ago, Joseph Kerman said:

Well, get us some SimplePlanes-style fuselages that can be mass-tweaked and edge-tweaked. As well as with the prop engines having rotational torque.

It really wouldn't make much difference other than the AI not having a clue & spinning out at slow speeds when it slams the throttle open. It would, however, require a completely new engine module, not just some simple tweaks to curves.

I will say that nobody is likely to use anything below the Merlin in the current rules. There's not really any use in the two-stage engines either with the way fights are run at the moment.

Here's an idea that would need a lot of testing - but how about a much lower FAR wing structural limit? iirc the best WW2 planes were pulling 6g turning ( let's not get into compressibility, we have a supersonic wing profile ) - not sure if that's an aerodynamic limit or a structural one.

Edited October 17, 2017 by Van Disaster

[DoctorDavinci]

9 hours ago, Van Disaster said:

I don't really care who wins, as long as it looks good

A nice change also would be starting the fights further apart, now we can - BDA doesn't like going over 21km

I ahree, just want it to look good and the winner of the competition to send the combatants to their maker in a blaze of glory

As for starting distance, BDAc can go well over 21km ... thing is the crafts can only be launched from KK runways, the KSC runway and the island runway

When KSP loads the flight scene it loads the 2 stock runways and any KK runways microseconds before loading crafts but does not load the terrain until runways and crafts have loaded (this is part of the KSP jumping landing gear problem) ... With PRE the ranges can be extended considerably but once you get past the 40km diameter terrain load limit in KSP your craft will almost always fall through the surface of kerbin to it's glorious death since KSP inherently will only load around a 40km patch of a planets/mun's surface below the craft in question

Citation: I did massive amounts of testing in the early days of PRE and BDAc before it was released and this is some of the quirks I found