Chinese Space Program (CNSA) & Ch. commercial launch and discussion

[kerbiloid]

A brief review of the next 120 pages of the thread.

Spoiler

 

 

Edited January 4, 2022 by kerbiloid

[steve9728]

13 hours ago, DDE said:

https://thespacereview.com/article/4306/1

Some interesting observations on the UN note. It seems China is operating on the assumption that crewed spacecraft have the right of way.

Although I can understand to some extend what the articel is trying to say, but its logic... Well it's still the American bandit logic as always: you almost rear-ended me twice and I dodged, and it was all my fault and you're not responsible for it? Also, I will be "threat to international order" if I cmplain on it?

"Does reliance on the provision intended specifically to protect astronauts signal that the Chinese are truly only concerned about human life?" Oh now you don't mumbling something "human right" ?

I checked the records of Starlink-1095 and Starlink-2305: 1095 back to Earth on 20 Sep. 2021, did it unintentionally enter orbit in Tianhe's orbit when it back to Earth? I doubt it: it maintained a continuous orbital altitude of 382 km between 24 June and 1 July  (the first dodge was happened at 1 July); 2305 was even stranger: it is now back in orbit at 552 perigee and 555 km apogee. Did it enter the Tianhe's orbit unintntionally because of the launch process? No it was launched on 24 March 2021. 

In fact, it's all the matter of international space orbit resource allocation. It is time for internaional collaboration and at least to sign an internationally recognised something "Space Traffic Act".

I know my words above may be "nationalist". But in fact, if you give anyone inside of China to read this article. My reaction above should be the natural reaction of most people.

6 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

What's the Chinese codename for NR-23?

The aviation machine guns? HP-23航空机炮, HP-23 aviation machine guns, HP stands for háng pào, the Chinese abbreviation for avation machine guns. We are not in the habit of giving nicknames to such "small weapone"

Edited January 4, 2022 by steve9728

[Beccab]

6 minutes ago, steve9728 said:

American bandit logic as always: you almost rear-ended me twice and I dodged, and it was all my fault and you're not responsible for it?

There's a very important difference between brake checking and being rear ended

Edited January 4, 2022 by Beccab

[steve9728]

7 minutes ago, Beccab said:

There's a very important difference between brake checking and being rear ended

"Space PIT" nice one... oh sorry, two

[steve9728]

3 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

A brief review of the next 120 pages of the thread.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Although I appreciate the idea of putting machine guns on the space station. But I would like to share a link: China's first production line with an annual production capacity of 240 small satellites goes into operation.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuTXKmg559c

"To defeat magic with magic"

[SOXBLOX]

1 hour ago, steve9728 said:

In fact, it's all the matter of international space orbit resource allocation. It is time for internaional collaboration and at least to sign an internationally recognised something "Space Traffic Act".

I think this is a matter of showmanship. The Party likes to complain about how Western powers are so mean and greedy, while simultaneously trying to emulate Starlink and Western successes. It's like a really bad comedy.

[steve9728]

8 minutes ago, SOXBLOX said:

I think this is a matter of showmanship. The Party likes to complain about how Western powers are so mean and greedy, while simultaneously trying to emulate Starlink and Western successes. It's like a really bad comedy.

And objective cultural and logical differences between East and West: both sides accuse each other based on their own pre-existing perceptions, leading to situations like this where the two sides are simply not on the same page to commnuicate (or yelling) for decades.

[SOXBLOX]

1 minute ago, steve9728 said:

And objective cultural and logical differences between East and West: both sides accuse each other based on their own pre-existing perceptions, leading to situations like this where the two sides are simply not on the same page to commnuicate (or yelling) for decades.

Hmmm... I have trouble chalking the issue down to just cultural differences, but I think I know what you mean.

[SunlitZelkova]

2 hours ago, steve9728 said:

And objective cultural and logical differences between East and West: both sides accuse each other based on their own pre-existing perceptions, leading to situations like this where the two sides are simply not on the same page to commnuicate (or yelling) for decades.

This basically happens with all of human society though, not just due to overt differences like culture or mind state, but simply the thinking that "the person is not me or my friend" and then they become a threat until they submit.

------

Chang'e 7 will launch in 2024, and will land at the South Pole. As it will carry this unique rover, it will basically be competing with operating at the same time as NASA's VIPER rover, which is also intended to search for water ice in permanently shadowed craters, and launches in November 2023.

By "take off" I am pretty sure they mean jump by the way.

------

Quote

Chinese scientist envisions regular spacecraft flights by 2045

http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-09/18/c_139379191.htm

It includes the following-

• Sending things to space (obviously)
• Returning things from space
• Point-to-point transportation
• "Routes between orbits"

The dream is 1,000 spacecraft flights per year by 2045.

This is intended to be achieved through a reusable Long March 9 variant, fully reusable spaceplanes, and private spaceflight.

This comes from Bao Weimin, an academician of the Chinese Academy of Sciences and director of the Committee of Science and Technology at CASC. I'm not sure how serious Chinese private space companies are in regards to their ambitions, but China's government space program appears to be interesting in competing with Musk's vision for US spaceflight (although at this point for both sides this basically amounts to "having dreams" not necessarily making them come true).

[steve9728]

32 minutes ago, SunlitZelkova said:

the person is not me or my friend

What people think or imagine about something often depends on their what they have seen and their own level of knowledge. For example, look at the computer or a prop with 'mobile phone' function in science fiction movie 20 years ago or more.

The first and second picures about CNSA twitter... I don't know about you guys. But I feel a bit like the Terror Drone from the Red Alert

32 minutes ago, SunlitZelkova said:

a reusable Long March 9 variant

Reusable CZ-9 bit of scary though. Because this rocket is positioned simarly to the Saturn V or Ares V. If that thing can reusable, it really is the breathtaking thing, physically. Actually is the reusable CZ-8: CZ-7rocket - two boosters= CZ-8. And as mentioned before, the Tengyun project also can help us to do what CNSA planning for at 2045.

CZ-7 rocket:

CZ-8 rocket:

and what they planning for:

Quote

 

 

Edited January 5, 2022 by steve9728

[SOXBLOX]

14 minutes ago, steve9728 said:

Reusable CZ-9 bit of scary though

Speaking of which...have they even test-fired the engines for the expendable type?

[steve9728]

8 minutes ago, SOXBLOX said:

Speaking of which...have they even test-fired the engines for the expendable type?

CZ-9's engine I only got the test-fired news about third and second stage engine. 

Adding  a recnt news about I believe it is the CZ-9 rocket third stage engine YF-79: 'Heavy rocket' 25-tonne expansion cycle hydrogen-oxygen engine undergoes first thrust chamber extrusion test. https://user.observersnews.com/main/content?id=660748

[SunlitZelkova]

25 minutes ago, SOXBLOX said:

Speaking of which...have they even test-fired the engines for the expendable type?

The plan is to first develop a non-expendable version called Long March 9 (11) with 140t to LEO payload, with a lower payload versions called Long March 9A (100t to LEO payload) and Long March 9B (50t to LEO payload), and then proceed to the Long March 9 (21), which is has a 150t to LEO payload and might be reusable in the same manner as the Falcon 9 (first stage, not upper stages).

Falcon 9 had a somewhat similar development plan (the first Falcon 9s were completely expendable), although SpaceX decided to proceed to the reusable variant fairly quickly in comparison with what the LM-9 might end up like.

48 minutes ago, steve9728 said:

Reusable CZ-9 bit of scary though. Because this rocket is positioned simarly to the Saturn V or Ares V. If that thing can reusable, it really is the breathtaking thing, physically.

Thinking about it though, it isn't particularly outrageous considering Superheavy, which has already been manufactured and will test fly shortly with a semi-soft landing in the water, also exists.

[steve9728]

Oh wait... I found the something about YF-130.  Because it is a pure Chinese video without subtitles I won't post it here. The video shows CCTV went to the CNSA Fifth Research Institue and filming the "full working conditions semi-systematic test run" for 5 seconds of the YF-130 engine: fuel ingection but no ignition.

Well if you really want to watch... here it is: https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1VK4y1G7K2?from=search&seid=14739954875701782702&spm_id_from=333.337.0.0

Fast forward to 06:34

[steve9728]

Saw a picture in Zhihu

NASA: hey bro, how's the analytical data on lunar soil?

CASIC: It can't grow vegetables

NASA: Nah bro, it is lunar soil! There should be a lot of rare elements and minerals right?

CASIC: But it can't grow vegetables

Chinese people, especially retired elders, are often able to start a small vegetable patch in places people would never have thought of. Comments in the Zhihu's comments section: My three-year-old son who doesn't know what space is, when he hears this news on TV: Wasn't the soil dug for nothing?

[steve9728]

The Trouble with Happiness: "The number of flight control halls is almost running out of numbers", said by engineer from the Xi'an Satellite Measurement and Control Centre. When the Shenzhou 13 maaned spaceship successfully docked with Tianhe, the same group of engineers immediately transferred to another hall to carry out an orbital control mission for another satellite. Next door to the Shenzhou 13 mission control hall, another group of scientists are conducting in-orbit tests on the Xihe solar exploration satellite; meanwhile in rest of the hall, scientists and engineers are also preparing for a all-region combined practice for the Practice-21 satellite mission.

http://www.news.cn/mil/2022-01/05/c_1211517834.htm

So if CNSA really want to achieve what they plan for 2045, there still a lot of things to do

Edited January 5, 2022 by steve9728

[steve9728]

The Tianhe space station completed a position switching experiment on the Tianzhou-2 cargo ship via robotic arm. 

http://www.news.cn/tech/2022-01/06/c_1128236200.htm

I think this should be the back-up measure to the 'Lyappa Arm' that was copied from the Soviet for both new module will be launch this year. 

Edited January 6, 2022 by steve9728

[kerbiloid]

32 minutes ago, steve9728 said:

I think this should be the back-up measure to the 'Lyappa Arm' that was copied from the Soviet for both new module will be launch this year. 

https://www-interfax-ru.translate.goog/world/814033?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=ru

The description sounds more like a Canadarm or Strela.

[steve9728]

1 hour ago, kerbiloid said:

https://www-interfax-ru.translate.goog/world/814033?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=ru

The description sounds more like a Canadarm or Strela.

Yep, it is the long one and you can think it as the "Chinese version Canadarm". But actually both two new module also prepared the "Chinese version Lyappa Arm". And Tianhe core module was already prepared two docking point.

Quote

 

Fast forward to 10:33, the thing on the front of Nie Haisheng is it.

Must to say, CNSA really is the good student

Edited January 6, 2022 by steve9728

[steve9728]

Yutu-II lunar rover exceed 1 km of travel distance. And now we got the clear image of the 'small house' shaped object found last month:

Yep, just a common rock

http://finance.people.com.cn/n1/2022/0108/c1004-32326751.html

Edited January 8, 2022 by steve9728

[steve9728]

When I look back the Chinese helicopter, Z-8, I found something "Ship of Theseus" like: PLA introduced and began to copy it from France in the 1970s. It also helped the PLA salvage missile data bins during the 1980 ICBM experiments. The question is: when an aircrft has redesigned engines,  redesigned fueslage structure, redesigned construction materials, redesigned flight controls and instrumentation, is it still the same aircraft? Thanks to those redesigns, it has gone from a maximum lift 3150m to gaining the ability to start its engines and fly over the highlands at altitudes of 4000m to 5000m. And ability to stay on a permanent basis in the highlands.

Before:

After:

And it fly to Everest Base camp:

 

Edited January 9, 2022 by steve9728

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

Not sure I understand your question.  Are you asking if someone takes a licensed design and improves on it, if that makes it unique?  Or are you asking whether when stolen tech gets upgraded does it count as a domestic product?

Not sure it matters, does it?

Is the J-20 a uniquely Chinese design?  No.  But it is still a Chinese aircraft.

[steve9728]

Not quite, on the one hand you are right. On the other hand, I think somehow I found the "Ship of Theseus" modernisation improvements version.

Ship of Theseus Block II

Edited January 9, 2022 by steve9728

[SunlitZelkova]

20 hours ago, steve9728 said:

The question is: when an aircrft has redesigned engines,  redesigned fueslage structure, redesigned construction materials, redesigned flight controls and instrumentation, is it still the same aircraft?

It depends on the specific extent that it has been redesigned.

The Tu-22 and Tu-22M are radically different aircraft. I don't think anyone considers them to be literally the same, and in literature, they are treated as separate aircraft, not with the Tu-22M being a variant of the former. Likewise, the MiG-17 could be called a "cousin" of the MiG-15, as the MiG-17 originated from an experimental MiG-15 prototype called the MiG-15 45°. Yet no one considers the MiG-17 to be a MiG-15 variant.

On the other hand, the F-20 Tigershark had pretty limited changes from the F-5, like a new engine, new construction materials, improved control surfaces, and much better avionics (basically like the examples you mentioned), and is considered a separate aircraft.

So it is on a case by case basis rather than there being some definition.

[DDE]

7 hours ago, SunlitZelkova said:

So it is on a case by case basis rather than there being some definition

The history of Soviet and post-Soviet aviation is instructive: Tu-22M and similar trickery (e.g. Su-27KM) was intended to avoid the bureaucracy of designing a new aircraft, whereas post-Union, spawning as many numbers as possible became a marketing ploy (e.g. Su-25T becoming Su-34).