Chinese Space Program (CNSA) & Ch. commercial launch and discussion

[steve9728]

3 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

The 'public relations' coolness of the Chinese inclusion of a self-monitoring camera is noteworthy.  I wonder if (even though it doesn't add to the 'science') follow on missions from other nations will include such 'look at me' stuff - taking a page from their playbook.

Ultimately, showing the public what they're getting for the money is beneficial.  (I note the recent 'why we don't have a Go-Pro on Webb' articles - but for the next Mars insertion?  Having a camera that can capture parts of the Seven Minutes of Terror would be cool

You reminded me of one thing: as far as I can remember, this 'selfie' behaviour has been going on since the Shenzhou-7 mission. Shenzhou-7 carried a small satellite that could fly around Shenzhou-7 itself and take pictures. Although the resolution doesn't seem too clear from what I remember - it's a 1.3 megapixel camera from 2008 and the small satellite itself is only 40kg.

Indeed, it's a bit of a bummer that the Webb telescope, which has the world's attention, doesn't have such a 'little thing' on board.

And btw, this may also be a benefit from the fact that the average age of CNSA's engineers and researchers are very young

Edited February 1, 2022 by steve9728

[kerbiloid]

They should just equip every modern spacecraft with telescopic selfie sticks with webcams.

[AtomicTech]

On 1/24/2022 at 6:05 PM, steve9728 said:

Tsinghua University has successfully tested their new aspirated supercombustion ram engine.

“The test mission was carried out by a two-stage rocket boosted by the "Qing Hang-Daxing". After the separation of the first stage rocket, the second stage rocket pushed the mission section engine to a predetermined altitude and speed. The engine intake achieved high efficiency suction, the fuel supply system atomised the aviation paraffin into the combustion chamber, the ignition system started smoothly, the combustion chamber entered the intended combustion state, the engine worked stably and obtained continuous thrust, and the test was a complete success.”

"This test at Tsinghua University achieved 'efficient suction in the engine intake tract', which means that the technology verification has been successful and will soon enter the engineering verification stage."

Front, left, right and back of the test rocket.

https://world.huanqiu.com/article/46X3a3161Bj

Hey hey!

That's really cool!

[steve9728]

Saw something worth to share from Chinese forum Hangtian Ba: China's Space Station construction schedule

I try to just throw it to the image translate but not looking good.

The two white text under the title 'China's Space Station construction schedule' are: 'Critical Technology Verification Phase' and 'Construction Phase';

The green text is 'Space Station Segment'. And the launch of Wentian Module is scheduled for June this year, and the launch of the Mengtian Module is scheduled for August / September this year.

The yellow text is 'Tianzhou', the supply ship. Tianzhou-4 may launch at 6th May and this imformation may have comefrom torism promotion; and Tianzhou-5 may launch at October 2022.

The red text is the 'Shenzhou', the manned ship. Shenzhou-13 crew maybe back to Earth at 16th April. Shenzhou-14 may launch at the end of May this year and will be cross-duty on the station for 10 days at the same time as Shenzhou 15, which is scheduled to be launched in November 2022.

(I'm actually more curious about the second phase of the Space Station and when the co-orbital space telescope Xuntian will be launched)

Edited February 1, 2022 by steve9728

[SunlitZelkova]

15 hours ago, steve9728 said:

(I'm actually more curious about the second phase of the Space Station and when the co-orbital space telescope Xuntian will be launched)

The latest photos of slides shared by PLA and CNSA watchers say 2024 for Xuntian, it came from a symposium last year I think (the same one where the Long March 5DY mission architecture was unveiled).

The second phase of the space station is a mystery. A backup Tianhe module was said to exist but that source has since apparently been deemed unconfirmed, and of course there is the Italian module. Beyond that, we will have to see. I wonder how big it will get.

Assuming a similar lifetime to the ISS, it is pretty crazy that it might be around until 2040!

[steve9728]

2 hours ago, SunlitZelkova said:

A backup Tianhe module

Given the importance of the 'launch one, back up one' phenomenon for CNSA, it is likely that back-up Tianhe modules is exist. I found another image of this module from the Hangtian Ba, but I spent the whole morning and afternoon still can't find the original source of this:

Personaly I think the Capola like module could be actually be integrated into another experimental section without wasting a docking port.

Notice something missing: a major breakthrough in single-channel high-power Hall electric propulsion technology with a maximum power to 105 kW and a maximum thrust of 4.6 Nm

"Remember to check and take the Xe tank"

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

11 minutes ago, steve9728 said:

the importance of the 'launch one, back up one' phenomenon

Interesting.  Is this a 'we plan to use both anyway, so make sure 2 is ready when we launch 1' scenario?  (SX notwithstanding, that philosophy is a strong departure from traditional space development) - will they follow the same strategy w/r/t the observatory, do you think, or would something like that be a one-off like Hubble or Webb? 

[steve9728]

26 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Interesting.  Is this a 'we plan to use both anyway, so make sure 2 is ready when we launch 1' scenario?  (SX notwithstanding, that philosophy is a strong departure from traditional space development) - will they follow the same strategy w/r/t the observatory, do you think, or would something like that be a one-off like Hubble or Webb? 

Well, just look at the relationship between the space lab Tiangong-1 and 2, moon prob Chang'e-1 and 2, Chang'e-3 and 4, Chang'e 5 and 6 which will launch at future.

Something 'one-off' probably would like something 'damn, let's bet on it' project. But for a national unit like CNSA, it's fine if the gamble really works, but if it fails, especially if it is an 'all in' project like Webb's, not to mention the hard to know internal government politics, the public opinion alone will be very critical, and this public opinion can in fact influence the progress of future CNSA projects. So, yes, even the biggest 'big gamble' of recent times, Tianwen-1, also has a backup. You could argue that CNSA lacks a certain amount of 'courage', but the kind of 'all in' behaviour that NASA has, CNSA really can't afford to do.

(And if any project overspent to the extent that Webb did and your gamble is fail, wait for the comrades from the Central Commission for Discipline Inspection )

Edited February 2, 2022 by steve9728

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

I would not call anyone's successful space program 'lacking in courage'.  You've astronauts up there who were not only brave enough to go - they were confident enough in the maturity of the systems (human and mechanical) to put their lives in other's hands.

(FWIW - any nation wants to avoid the 'embarrassment' of failure, but it's the brave who are willing to risk it)

That said; yeah, Webb was a gamble - but at some point it got 'too big to fail' so people's careers were set on 'if it doesn't blow up during launch it better darn well work!'

[steve9728]

At the recent UN Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons (CCW) Review Conference, China raised the issue of banning "killer robots", which was supported by most countries but opposed by some, including the US, Russia and India.

https://content-static.cctvnews.cctv.com/snow-book/index.html?item_id=9915679170386868158&reco_id=1018b36e923cac1d03a40002&toc_style_id=feeds_default

Ah my Indian friends, if in the future when the battlefield is fought by the robots and got beaten make everything comes out, remember that it is you who oppose it.

If I remember correctly the last time somthing like this happened was China and Russia submiited an agreement on a space demilitarization proposal that was rejected. And then CNSA launched that SJ-21 that everyone was curious about.

[Beccab]

Just now, steve9728 said:

"killer robots"

That sounds way too vague - are guided bombs killer robots? Mechanical turrets? Missiles?

[steve9728]

Just now, Beccab said:

That sounds way too vague - are guided bombs killer robots? Mechanical turrets? Missiles?

I think is about something "AI killer robot". Because turrets and missiles and all that stuff, everyone was using right now.

Yep

http://www.gov.cn/xinwen/2021-12/14/content_5660614.htm

[DDE]

1 hour ago, Beccab said:

That sounds way too vague - are guided bombs killer robots? Mechanical turrets? Missiles?

Standard terminology is "autonomous weapon systems", I believe.

1 hour ago, steve9728 said:

but opposed by some, including the US, Russia and India.

Makes a fair bit of sense. Besides mere contrarianism, there's a fair bit of interest in something that might offset Russia's numerical inferiority.

[kerbiloid]

Spoiler

 

 

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

@kerbiloidwill you confirm whether the Russian Foundation for Advanced Research Technologies is the actual developer? 

Cited in the first video. 

 

 

Russian FART?  Seriously? 

[kerbiloid]

15 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

whether the Russian Foundation for Advanced Research Technologies is the actual developer? 

https://ru-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/FEDOR?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=ru

Designed  by  https://npo-at.com/en/

Russian Foundation for Advanced Research Technologies is a governmental investment foundation, so a sponsor
https://ru-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Фонд_перспективных_исследований?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=ru

3 minutes ago, SOXBLOX said:

How fortunate we have such humane and caring people *cough, cough* governing the PRC.

Last time when it was governed by US, recall how it ended.

Spoiler

Happily, Sarah Jane rolled this back.

Edited February 6, 2022 by kerbiloid

[SunlitZelkova]

I shall share some stuff I missed recently.

On 1/28/2022 at 4:55 AM, steve9728 said:

The Chinese State Council has published a white paper on the 2021 space programme.

Full Text: China's Space Program: A 2021 Perspective (1) & (2)

Original Chinese version (the real ‘full text’)

“…Launch asteroid probes to sample near-earth asteroids and probe main-belt comets; Complete key technological research on Mars sampling and return, exploration of the Jupiter system, and so forth; Study plans for boundary exploration of the solar system.”

“…Actively participating in the International Charter on Space and Major Disasters mechanism, providing nearly 800 views of satellite remote sensing data for disaster reduction in nearly 40 countries, and adding eight new satellites and constellations as duty satellites and constellations to enhance the international community's disaster prevention and reduction capabilities.”

These two things are also especially intriguing.

I wonder just what exact pace the LM-5DY program might have. If the first launch is in 2026, and Artemis (SLS specifically) keeps getting delayed, they could end up on much closer schedules than was previously envisioned.

Long March 9 has been approved "for real for real" now 

This came only a few days before the summit between the heads of state Presidents of the two nations.

Also, something major that no one (including myself) noticed-

By Exploration Mission 1 he means Artemis I.

This is a little spooky, as NASA lost a major PR talking point they had used for the mission due to the delays with SLS and Orion. If SLS had launched on time in November (or years before earlier) it would have accomplished this achievement.

It may not seem like much, but amidst the backdrop of the wider competition between the US and China and comparisons between the state of their science and technology industries, it is interesting.

Edited February 6, 2022 by SunlitZelkova
Official titles

[steve9728]

13 hours ago, SunlitZelkova said:

I wonder just what exact pace the LM-5DY program might have

I think it's time to looking at whether any of the CNSA rockets launched in this two years have had their engines changed. It could be some of the lesser notice routine launches, but of course it could also be something else that is being advertised with great fanfare.

Chang'e 5 that part we also can't see anything inside the 'firewall'. The only things about 'reorbiting' recently from the official report is it back to the Sun-Earth L1 point orbit. Thanks for the accuracy of reorientation, Chang'e 5 save a lot of fuel: only 0.3% of the planned propellant was consumed. Based on another CNSA phenomenon: keep using it if they can. Surprised me but not very surprised

"The Chinese government has adopted a certain project plan", which to a certain extent you can interpret as "the Politburo met and agreed to it". From what I know of our government, it seems that "the Politburo met and agreed to do something" has never been particularly delayed. So just be patient

When I searching something about Chang'e 5 recently news, I saw something important but I missed: Chinese scientists confirm that lunar magma was still active 2 billion years ago. Based on three article "Two billion-year-old volcanism on the Moon from Chang’E-5 basalts", "Non-KREEP origin for Chang’e-5 basalts in the Procellarum KREEP Terrane" and "A dry lunar mantle reservoir for young mare basalts of Chang’e-5". Scientists found out that Lunar magma still active 2 billion years ago, the moon was cooling slower than what we expected, and the lunar mantle source area is almost devoid of water.

Edited February 7, 2022 by steve9728

[steve9728]

Funny thing about Winter Olympic again: DJ plays 'Katyusha' at halftime of Russian-American women's hockey game

It's okay to be sanctioned by the Olympic Committee, my Russian friends, you can still feel at home with us!

[Vanamonde]

Some comments removed. Please leave the national rivalries for other places on the internet and let this forum remain a friendlier place to talk about space exploration. 

[steve9728]

Found something interesting: a public lecture introducing CSST (China Space Station Telescope), aka the Xuntian Module. But it is 14 hours totally and fully Chinese without subtitles. So I will try to summrize and update them.

The original source:https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1Gh411Y7Z1?from=search&seid=17958669760543566170&spm_id_from=333.337.0.0

This lectures includes:

1. The general scheme and introduction to CSST
2. CSST's Multi-Channel Imager
3. CSST data processing
4. CSST Enclid-Roman Survey Data Synergy
5. CSST Master Survey Simulation Progress
6. CSST Integral Field  of View Spectrometer
7. CSST High Sensitivity Terahertz Detection Module
8. CSST Exoplanet Imaging Coronagraph
9. Large Field of View Optical Imaging Survey
10. CSST Seamless Spectral Survey and Data Processing Pipeline Design
11. Error Analysis and Optimisation of the CSST Photometric Survey
12. Redshift survey study of CSST seamless spectroscopy

[steve9728]

The first lecture slides:

Edited February 9, 2022 by steve9728

[steve9728]

Second lecture slide: Introduction to the Multi-Channel Imager of the Chinese Space Station Telescope

 

[steve9728]

Third lecture slides: Intouduction to the CSST data processing

 

[steve9728]

CCTV13:  The CZ-5B Y3 rocket, which will be used to carry the 'Wentian' module of the space station, has completed assembly and general testing and pre-factory preparation is in progress. Meanwhile, the CZ-5B Y4 rocket, which will be used to carry the 'Mengtian' module of the space station, the rocket-related products have been prepared and final assembly work is underway.

Meanwhile, the first photo taken in quadrant III of the 17.9m tall 'Wentian' module have also been released:

From top to bottom are the short truss structure reserved for the relocation of the existing core module solar panels, the resource bay (two main engines and offset relay antenna visible on the front side, folded solar wings on both sides), the EVA airlock bay (exposed experimental payload mounting platform and RCS nozzle visible from outside the cabin), the work bay (portholes and robotic arm adapters visible outside the bay, three additional sleeping areas and one sanitary area inside the bay).

Edited February 13, 2022 by steve9728
'Fatal error' in name discovered