Air Superiority Fighter Competition Continued

[Box of Stardust]

4 minutes ago, dundun93 said:

Just remove one Vulcan and a ECM/Chaff/Flares maybe?

For Light Drones, you're over the Vulcan limitation by 1. Removing that will solve the loaded weight (unless you decide you want more fuel or chaff/flare or something, then remove an ECM).

Edited April 4, 2018 by Box of Stardust

[Guest]

32 minutes ago, Box of Stardust said:

For Light Drones, you're over the Vulcan limitation by 1. Removing that will solve the loaded weight (unless you decide you want more fuel or chaff/flare or something, then remove an ECM).

Ok great! You may do that. Thanks!

[53miner53]

2 hours ago, Box of Stardust said:

Hey guys,

Another comparison up to fill the time. As I may have mentioned, I'll be posting up a Light Drones competition offshoot on release of BDA 1.1 for 1.4.1, and I'll be taking entries here that will fit the parameters (they're not that strict really). The primary Light Drone craft parameters are: 4.0t maximum dry mass (empty of all fuel, missiles and pre-routing devices (e.g., MLRS), gun ammo, and chaff+flares), 5.5t combat weight (as loaded on the runway), and 1 Vulcan per 0.9t of empty aircraft weight (inclusive). Here are there contenders, and as per usual, some currently unlisted projects of mine:

 

 

And because I was really scratching that air superiority itch, here are the stats, mass (empty, as-loaded) rounded to nearest hundredth of a ton:

@dundun93 A26	3.00t	5.58t
CShRAID Type 2b	3.49t	5.19t
@dundun92Du-8C	2.15t	2.95t
@Wolf5698 Lynx	2.40t	5.19t
@53miner53 P-5 Flash	0.90t	2.85t
@goduranus Vampire Squirrel (B)	3.27t	5.73t
@ZLM-Master X-Fighter 2 EX	2.47t	4.48t
PEGASys-E4	3.60t	5.50t
CShRAID Type 3c	3.00t	4.60t

All aircraft on the list meet all the requirements, including Vulcan amount limitation (well, actually the A26 doesn't; it's 1 Vulcan over). The two that exceed the 5.5t limit require minimal modification (remove 1 ECM from the MLRS).

 

 

 

Do you think I underdid the weight a little?

[Box of Stardust]

12 minutes ago, 53miner53 said:

Do you think I underdid the weight a little?

?

You can build as light as you want. To be honest, I made up the 0.9t rule for Vulcans before weighing your P-5. All I knew was that I wanted a maximum of 4 Vulcans to restrict gun spam (and the 0.9t rule would extend fairly neatly here too), but also make mounting 4 Vulcans achievable within the 4.0t empty mass limit. I figured that the minimum viable craft weight couldn't be lighter than 0.9t anyways.

The P-5 actually came in at 897kg empty, but, you know, rounding.

Edited April 4, 2018 by Box of Stardust

[53miner53]

2 minutes ago, Box of Stardust said:

?

You can build as light as you want. To be honest, I made up the 0.9t rule for Vulcans before weighing your P-5. I figured that the minimum viable craft weight couldn't be lighter than 0.9t anyways  

I was joking... don’t think that is obvious enough through text. 

7 minutes ago, Box of Stardust said:

It actually came in at 897kg empty, but, you know, rounding.

Dang it rounding, I could prove you wrong on the .9t comment!

[Wolf5698]

Did you weigh the Lynx with or without the drop tanks? Also your drone competition sounds great, I’ve been wanting to see how the Lynx does against similar craft

[Box of Stardust]

4 minutes ago, Wolf5698 said:

Did you weigh the Lynx with or without the drop tanks? Also your drone competition sounds great, I’ve been wanting to see how the Lynx does against similar craft

It was weighed without drop tanks for dry weight and with them for combat load. 

If you'll note from the pictures, there's a funky little thing in the background that I've been testing against this drone board for fun, and I'm getting interesting results.

Edited April 4, 2018 by Box of Stardust

[Guest]

@exbyde/ @Box of Stardust

Although I know it is unrealistic, I think the "tankyness" of BDA 1.1 is good for both competitions. I personally like the fact that merge-killers no longer have much effect. Now, dogfighting capabilities such as directional stability, concentration of fire, exactly tweaked AI, maintaining energy, etc., are more important than simply spamming vulcans. This is my opinion though.  I probably will create a competition for larger aircraft with BDA 1.1 soon.

[ZLM-Master]

Mmmm . I have tested BDAc1.1 with KSP1.3.1 , but it is work with KSP 1.4.X . My challenge is ready for a while now and i waited for on Official BDAc release .

I could test in 1.4.X , nothing to loose after all .

[Box of Stardust]

6 hours ago, dundun92 said:

@exbyde/ @Box of Stardust

Although I know it is unrealistic, I think the "tankyness" of BDA 1.1 is good for both competitions. I personally like the fact that merge-killers no longer have much effect. Now, dogfighting capabilities such as directional stability, concentration of fire, exactly tweaked AI, maintaining energy, etc., are more important than simply spamming vulcans. This is my opinion though.  I probably will create a competition for larger aircraft with BDA 1.1 soon.

There's the HP editor of course, for other normal competitions.

Also, the high HP is sometimes good, but depending on aircraft design, can be unintentionally too tanky (see: VG-D3.4-PG). Even the 'normal' planes can require a somewhat excessive time under guns. 

I've taken the best-tuned, stable planes from this competition, and they all either run out of ammo or fuel. (They may or may  not have done something with the AI too that changed how they behave in combat.) They just can't keep their guns on target long enough on targets small and fast as the drones we have. (Maybe larger aircraft would solve this though?)

For what should be 20mm cannon shells, it sure feels like .30cal machine gun bullets.

Needs testing to determine the exact parameters for aircraft construction for such a competition. Might even reasonable to include weapons excluded in this competition (like the turrets).

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Box of Stardust said:

There's the HP editor of course, for other normal competitions.

Also, the high HP is sometimes good, but depending on aircraft design, can be unintentionally too tanky (see: VG-D3.4-PG). Even the 'normal' planes can require a somewhat excessive time under guns. 

I've taken the best-tuned, stable planes from this competition, and they all either run out of ammo or fuel. (They may or may  not have done something with the AI too that changed how they behave in combat.) They just can't keep their guns on target long enough on targets small and fast as the drones we have. (Maybe larger aircraft would solve this though?)

For what should be 20mm cannon shells, it sure feels like .30cal machine gun bullets.

Needs testing to determine the exact parameters for aircraft construction for such a competition. Might even reasonable to include weapons excluded in this competition (like the turrets).

For my challenge, planes will have to be manned (and no lawn chairs), and weigh at least 6t. Also, a 2 Vulcan limit will be imposed. And sidewinders only.

Edited April 4, 2018 by Guest

[DoctorDavinci]

5 hours ago, Box of Stardust said:

There's the HP editor of course, for other normal competitions.

Also, the high HP is sometimes good, but depending on aircraft design, can be unintentionally too tanky (see: VG-D3.4-PG). Even the 'normal' planes can require a somewhat excessive time under guns. 

I've taken the best-tuned, stable planes from this competition, and they all either run out of ammo or fuel. (They may or may  not have done something with the AI too that changed how they behave in combat.) They just can't keep their guns on target long enough on targets small and fast as the drones we have. (Maybe larger aircraft would solve this though?)

For what should be 20mm cannon shells, it sure feels like .30cal machine gun bullets.

Needs testing to determine the exact parameters for aircraft construction for such a competition. Might even reasonable to include weapons excluded in this competition (like the turrets).

Just to give you a heads up, the HP and Armor Editor has been incorporated into DCK FutureTech ... thread has been locked and github repo has been deleted as well as the links 

 

[Box of Stardust]

15 minutes ago, DoctorDavinci said:

Just to give you a heads up, the HP and Armor Editor has been incorporated into DCK FutureTech ... thread has been locked and github repo has been deleted as well as the links 

 

Good to know. 

But considering how hitpoints are integral to BDAc 1.1, shouldn't the armor editor be included with BDA instead?

[DoctorDavinci]

3 minutes ago, Box of Stardust said:

Good to know. 

But considering how hitpoints are integral to BDAc 1.1, shouldn't the armor editor be included with BDA instead?

That was the intention, however I put it in DCK FutureTech instead

[Box of Stardust]

1 minute ago, DoctorDavinci said:

That was the intention, however I put it in DCK FutureTech instead

Well... ok. Fair reasoning, I guess. 

[Guest]

So here is my competition for larger manned aircraft in BDA 1.1.

 

[Thorn_Ike]

Ok, so April 6 came and went, and you said you will proceed to 1.4 then @exbyde ?

[Box of Stardust]

12 hours ago, Thorn_Ike said:

Ok, so April 6 came and went, and you said you will proceed to 1.4 then @exbyde ?

So here's my plan:

When I stop being lazy, I'll set up a save file, probably with Kerbal Konstructs so I can place actual runways, and actually place some runways at the ~35km start distance from each other, except pointed directly at each other. That way, we can stop worrying about differences between how aircraft are set up and any formation differences (theoretically). I'll have this save file shared so anyone else that wants it can have it (which will require Kerbal Konstructs, of course).

Then I'll restart this competition- still using BDA 1.0- from Gunbrick vs Viper, because aircraft formation debate. 

We'll finish up the current queue this way, then figure out what happens after that. 

I suppose until BDAc 1.1 for 1.4 comes out, we can leave admissions unlocked, but when BDAc updates, we'll have to figure out what to do from that point because aircraft designed in BDAc 1.0 are probably not compatible/will not function properly in BDAc 1.1. Maybe have all leaderboard designers just re-arm their craft for 1.1, then continue as normal in KSP 1.4.

And if at any point exbyde comes back, then we'll talk about what's what then, I suppose. 

[exbyde]

I'm officially handing over control of this competition to @Box of Stardust. I unfortunately have found myself with new responsibilities, and if the last month has not clearly demonstrated, i most likely will not have time to participate here as i have.

[Box of Stardust]

Alrighty folks, got news. 

Just got a message from exbyde transferring the competition to me.

I'll be starting up a new thread soon, with a few changes in effect.

Assured changes:

1. New combat zones, requiring Kerbal Konstructs. This is for launch and formation consistency, as well as change of scenery. This save file will be put up for sharing for anyone else that wants to run competitions.

2. 'Public' leaderboard; I'll make a Google Sheets table or a Google Docs that can easily be shared and modified between multiple people. This is for ease of continuity and management between people that choose to run battles, as well as future-proofing takeover of the competition runner should that need to happen.

 

Potential changes:

1. Moving from a 'best out of 3' format to 'best out of 5' (like PFC) or 'reserve units' format. 'Reserve units' means that each team starts with a set amount of aircraft (e.g., 6 or 8), and 3v3 sorties are fought until a team's reserve is depleted. This will help a relatively competitive plane design get more screen time if it can put up a fight, just to be more interesting.

2. Expanded leaderboard with two tiers. A 'top five' leaderboard as is and a 'second tier' leaderboard with 3-5 aircraft. Aircraft entering the competition will start facing off the #5 as usual. If the aircraft in testing loses against the #5, it will test downwards against the second tier board until it either takes a victory or it falls through the floor, out of the competition board. This is another measure to increase a design's showcase time.

 

Note that these potential changes will be present in my own offshoot, ASC Light Drones.

I've been preparing the save file already for the past few days, but I didn't expect to have to step up the pace so soon. New thread will go up within the week after preparations. 

That thread will start where we left off here, just to finish off the queue.

Edited April 15, 2018 by Box of Stardust

[Piatzin]

When life gets in the way ;-;

@exbyde I suspect that the dunduns might be peeved a little. But hey, life is a priority. You do you

Edited April 15, 2018 by Earthlinger

[exbyde]

11 minutes ago, Earthlinger said:

When life gets in the way ;-;

@exbyde I suspect that the dunduns might be peeved a little. But hey, life is a priority. You do you

Its more a new job and a project ive been procrastinating on since last year. Once Flite Fest East is done mid-july i may make more regular appearances. Im confident thay while some may object, the thread will be in more capable hands and continue on with Herobrian's original vision in my absence.

[Wolf5698]

So are we using 1.4 now?

 

[Box of Stardust]

11 minutes ago, Wolf5698 said:

So are we using 1.4 now?

 

Not yet, as BDAc 1.1 has not yet been released for KSP 1.4 (to my current knowledge).

[Box of Stardust]

Hey everyone,

Updates!

So, I've just finally moved ahead with creating new combat zones, after discovering after much trial and error that KSP doesn't cooperate very well with landed objects past ~30km over 'random' terrain; i.e., not KSC or the Island Airfield. What this meant was that when I went past about 30km, anything landed (read: a beacon, or what would be more relevant, aircraft) would fall through the terrain and explode and be destroyed. This occurred even after placing Kerbal Konstruct runways over the intended spawn areas and trying to spawn vessels over those runways. Nope, vessel would still fall through terrain if you move past/switch vessels 30km from it.

So, what that all means is that the new runway starts are all going to be within 30km of each other. It's slightly shorter than the 34-ish km between KSC and Island Airfield, but it's not a big deal.

With that out of the way, I've finally started placing runways and runway beacons for the new combat zones. Here's a preview, starting where we (debatably) left off:

 

 

So, with the help of Kerbal Konstructs, we can now have runways anywhere we want facing each other, adding variety and, more importantly, simplifying the launch sequence greatly. Formations are much more consistent, not much different than what you'd see in an 'optimal, not-bugged' launch in the old KSC-Island method. Sorta. As you can see from the two videos, the BD AI still suffers from 'first takeoff glitch', where at least one of the aircraft won't follow in formation at the start. In the second takeoff, the aircraft fly in a more uniform manner.

The main point is though, is that the only major thing to mess around with now are the distances between spawned aircraft, which might take some trial and error to see what works best, but even then, getting the spawn arrangement between teams to be similar is now way easier to do with identical runways.

This combat zone is more of your standard 'over water' area (of which there's still a few), but another interesting thing of note is that, due to initial spawn heights, the combat altitude is also higher. Something to think about, now that we have new combat zone options...

 

Oh yeah, and Gunbrick does the ultra-merge thing to move on to fight TFD.

We'll move to the new thread when I finish the map and get the other stuff set up. For now, I'll keep updates in this thread.

Also, a note about Kerbal Konstructs: it doesn't actually save the runways in a save file. Instead, its data is in its mod directory, so there's just a few more steps involved when sharing the competition files. You'll still need the save file though, since it has all of the beacons placed down not only for the locations, but the runway spawn points.

Edited April 19, 2018 by Box of Stardust