Mining

[Kerbaleo]

Hi everyone!
Convert-O-Tron 125 is totally out of a game.
First, I noticed a cooling issue (2 screen shots below; just 1 mode's on: Convert 250 - 1 medium TCS is enough, Covert 125 - 3 TCSs aren't enough because of its max cooling = 50kW), then I checked a forum out and saw players discussing other Convert-O-Tron 125's problems (it wastes ore, for ex.).
Could developers explain what's the matter? I didn't cope realizing why is it designed in that way.

Edited February 5, 2018 by Kerbaleo

[Cpt Kerbalkrunch]

Welcome to the forums!

There always seem to be bugs that pop up related to mining with each new update (though I've never really experienced any problems), but I believe the shortcomings of the small converter are purposeful. If you had something small and light, but worked as well as something large and heavy, there'd be no reason to use the larger one. I see it as sort of a give and take. You trade mass for efficiency, just like with the smaller drills. Not sure what exactly the issue you're having is, though. Can you post a screenshot directly?

[Spricigo]

 

The small converter have its uses. If you have a small ore input and enough time to produce the fuel the inefficiency is not a big deal.

[Guest]

I like them as they are. The big one is so much more effective it feels like there's a real payoff building with it, despite the ability to fast-forward time. If the small one was anywhere near as efficient, why would anyone ever use the bigger one?

[Geschosskopf]

@Kerbaleo, as other mention, the smaller sizes of ISRU and drills are intentionally more limited than the bigger ones, to give them distinct roles in the game.  The small parts are for small *crewed* ships to refuel themselves slowly over the course of a fairly long stay on the surface.  IOW, while some of the crew go on a long rover exploration tour, an engineer stays in the lander getting it refueled to return to orbit.  The small ISRU will not operate continuously without an engineer---it will shut down eventually if left untended.  OTOH, if you want to make a base that refuel other ships, even without any crew there, then you need the big parts.

Also, there's no such thing as "wasted ore".  The amount of ore in a planet does not decrease with consumption.  Thus,  the only real effect of the small Convert-o-Tron needing more ore to create a given amount of fuel is that it will take more time to make that fuel than the big Convert-o-Tron.  The extra time comes from needing to drill for more ore, and the small drills are also slower at that then the big ones.  However, time is not very important in KSP.  It only really matters for transfer windows, which are months-to-years apart.  Even though the small Convert-o-Tron is slow, it's still fast enough (provided it's crewed) to do its small job in that much time.  

[Kryxal]

Actually, mining an asteroid, there WOULD be such a thing as wasted ore.  On the other hand, if an asteroid is big enough to be worth mining, it's big enough to send a 250 anyway.

[Kerbaleo]

Thanks for your answers.
Of course, the small one should produce less fuel per a unit of time, than the big one. No questions. But overheating and wasting ore (despite limitless resources on planets)? I assert that they take place.
Guys, KSP is a simulation game. It's a question of being authentic.
I just want to know WHY Convert 125's made in the way we see it now.

Cpt Kerbalkrunch, sorry, what do you mean by "post directly"?
 

Edited February 5, 2018 by Kerbaleo
update

[Cpt Kerbalkrunch]

1 hour ago, Kryxal said:

Actually, mining an asteroid, there WOULD be such a thing as wasted ore.  On the other hand, if an asteroid is big enough to be worth mining, it's big enough to send a 250 anyway.

It doesn't exactly waste the ore, the small drill just doesn't get the huge asteroid-harvesting bonus that the large drill gets. You end up drilling all the ore for very little fuel. More of a wasted opportunity than wasted ore. As you said though, if you're gonna grab an asteroid, you can probably afford to use the large drills and converter.

(Changed the conversation to drills for some reason. Not much sleep.  Apologies.)

Edited February 5, 2018 by Cpt Kerbalkrunch

[Spricigo]

2 minutes ago, Cpt Kerbalkrunch said:

It doesn't exactly waste the ore,

actually it does:

Small converter:
 

Inputs: Electric charge30 ⚡/s Ore2.5 /s

Outputs: Liquid fuel0.225 /s Oxidizer0.275 /s

large converter:
 

Inputs: Electric charge30 ⚡/s Ore0.5 /s

Outputs: Liquid fuel0.45 /s Oxidizer0.55 /s

Input 5x more ore, output 0.5x fuel...

[Cpt Kerbalkrunch]

1 minute ago, Spricigo said:

actually it does:

Small converter:
 

Inputs: Electric charge30 ⚡/s Ore2.5 /s

Outputs: Liquid fuel0.225 /s Oxidizer0.275 /s

large converter:
 

Inputs: Electric charge30 ⚡/s Ore0.5 /s

Outputs: Liquid fuel0.45 /s Oxidizer0.55 /s

Input 5x more ore, output 0.5x fuel...

I know. I changed the conversation for some reason. Was plowing snow for 15 hours yesterday. And still thinking about KSP.  Just not clearly.

[Spricigo]

1 minute ago, Cpt Kerbalkrunch said:

Was plowing snow for 15 hours yesterday. And still thinking about KSP.  Just not clearly.

That is why when someone  talk about the benefits of "hard work" I'm so suspicious. Laziness have such better RoI.

[Snark]

2 hours ago, Kerbaleo said:

what do you mean by "post directly"?

He means put an image (such as a screenshot) directly in the post, i.e. so it shows up where we can see it, as an inline image.  Instructions in spoiler, since you're new to the forum

Spoiler

1. Take an in-game screenshot using F1.  It gets saved to the "Screenshots" folder of your KSP installation.
2. Go to www.imgur.com.  (You don't need to make an account or anything, this works fine anonymously.)
3. Click on the green "new post" button up top.
4. Drag your image into the "drop image here" box that it pops up.
5. As soon as the post is complete, right-click on the image on the imgur page and choose "Copy Image Location".
   • Important, not the URL of the page on Imgur.  You need the URL of the image, i.e. it should end in ".png".
6. Paste that URL into your forum post here.  It'll get automagically converted into an in-line image.

 

[Cpt Kerbalkrunch]

Sorry, @Kerbaleo, I didn't see your edit until just now. If you ever want to get someone's attention, you can hit the "quote" button on one of their posts, or just tag them like I did with your name just now. Just type the "@", then start typing their name until you see it. 

Thanks to @Snark for answering. And it's just like he said to post a pic we can all see easily (I think most of us are on our phones at work a lot of the time and have to be quick ) Just seeing someone's ship can help guys to see whatever problem you're experiencing. I've found that no matter what the problem is, someone here will surely know the answer. We all like to help other players. And I'm pretty sure we all like to see other players' screenshots.

[Rocket In My Pocket]

3 hours ago, Kerbaleo said:

Guys, KSP is a simulation game. It's a question of being authentic.

Wait...it is?

Why are there little green men everywhere then? Lol.

Very little about KSP is "authentic" or a "simulation." It plays it pretty fast and loose with realism. Which is fine, it's a video game after all.

[Spricigo]

3 hours ago, Kerbaleo said:

Guys, KSP is a simulation game. It's a question of being authentic.
 

Well, lets start disagreeing with  @Rocket In My Pocket : it is a simulation. However is also a game.

The simulation part need to make some concession for the game part. There is gameplay reasons for those "unauthentic" or "unrealistic" details (little green men, super dense planets, magic reaction wheels, super strong Ion engine, ...) and that is the case for the difference between small and large converter.

 

Notice, I'm not saying that it cannot use a balance pass (or a light modding for customization). Just that authenticity alone is not reason enough for it.

In fact, we may even say that it is authentic that a large converter is more efficient, the same way a industrial smeller will be much more efficient than my kitchen stove.

 

Edited February 5, 2018 by Spricigo

[Rocket In My Pocket]

2 hours ago, Spricigo said:

Well, lets start disagreeing with @Rocket In My Pocket

No, let's not do that! That's not any fun for anyone lol.

You get what I mean though right? This isn't like "Silent Hunter 5" submarine level of simulation where you have to manually time torpedoes and do every single thing down to the smallest detail yourself. It's certainly on the "light" end of simulation games, if it is one.

I agree about the converters though, makes perfect sense to me.

[Spricigo]

2 minutes ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

No, let's not do that! That's not any fun for anyone lol.

It is fun for me... at least while it is with the intent of looking for different angles and contribute with the discussion. So we can learn together (YAY! ).

Mind you, the 'divergence'  was just in the rhetoric we used to point the same: is a game, should be fun.

 

[Cpt Kerbalkrunch]

18 hours ago, Spricigo said:

Well, lets start disagreeing with  @Rocket In My Pocket :

 

Might be unwise to disagree with a guy who flat-out tells you "I have a @Rocket In My Pocket". 

[Rocket In My Pocket]

1 minute ago, Cpt Kerbalkrunch said:

Might be unwise to disagree with a guy who flat-out tells you "I have a @Rocket In My Pocket". 

Nah, I don't.

I'm just happy to see you.  

[Spricigo]

1 minute ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

Nah, I don't.

I'm just happy to see you.  

*Dimms the lights*

[xlm]

It's just a balancing issue. It's smaller and lighter, so it's inferior than the bigger one in every way you can imagine. If you are still so angry about it, just go into the game files and patch it yourself. Or if you don't want to mod the game and still think it was made completely useless, just don't use it. There are plenty of parts in the game that I never used. No need to argue it out.

[ajburges]

The small converter only overheats if you run it past 50%. Try limiting the minner to The equivalent of a single large drill starting with zero ore and you should be sufficiently ore constrained to allow continuous operation.