Stock Game not very fun without Delta-V & TWR readout

[Cpt Kerbalkrunch]

18 minutes ago, LoSBoL said:

Judging by the numerous and endless requests, topics and posts over the years about the subject, do you really need a formal study, poll or survey? It's not hard to make an educated guess

A guess would still be just that; a guess. Judging by the number of topics and posts over the years, you would think most players can't land on the Mun either. Which is obviously not true. This topic will mostly be one-sided in terms of posts and topics. Since it's not currently in the game, no one bothers to start a topic about how it shouldn't be in the game. There will always be people who don't want it or feel they don't need it. Some like to wing it, as I do, and some like to do the calculations themselves. I'm not so sure there's a majority anywhere on this endless topic.

I'll say again, though, I'm not opposed to seeing it added to the game. I would like it to be locked at first, though. Rather than being unlocked through the tech tree or building upgrades, I think it should become available after your first successful trip to the Mun and back. Something along the lines of "you now have new insight into the requirements for space travel". Auto unlocked, of course, in sandbox. I don't see how it wouldn't work that way. Your first Mun landing is a huge accomplishment and shows that you're ready for more in-depth exploration. I'd like to see it added at some point but, again, I don't think they ever will. Maybe in KSP2.

Edited March 20, 2018 by Cpt Kerbalkrunch

[GoSlash27]

21 minutes ago, Cpt Kerbalkrunch said:

A guess would still be just that; a guess.

And again, it's immaterial anyway. Nobody knows what the "majority" is or what the "majority" wants, and nobody should care because that's not a valid basis for making a change.

Best,
-Slashy

[Human Person]

I generally agree with you, but where would you draw the line? Should RCS Build Aid be Stock too, or Trajectories? The game is certainly much more fun with these mods too but some people just want to play KSP without caring for all the technicalities, building and flying rockets „by the seat of their pants“. 

 

Edit: Btw The only mod I would definitely want to see stock is Navball Docking Alignment Indocator. 

Edited March 20, 2018 by Human Person

[John FX]

1 hour ago, GoSlash27 said:

That's a false choice. It's not about making the game suitable strictly for the majority *or* the minority, it's about making the game suitable for everyone.

 

20 hours ago, John FX said:

could we move this on to the conclusion please?

The conclusion is that it should be introduced, as an option, and with a caveat that it is not perfect in every case.

So don't refer to my call for compromise as `tyranny by majority` if you want a sensible discussion.

Try reading my posts, understanding them,and replying to them properly instead of a knee jerk reaction, eh?

Then you will see that it is your perception that I am calling for there to be a choice which is false.

20 hours ago, John FX said:

4,  if a Dv readout were to be introduced there is no reason it should take away from the game of the players who do not want to use it.

We are still stuck on number four. AGAIN...

43 minutes ago, Just Jim said:

I made a proposal to implement it with an option to disable it, which should satisfy both sides.

Yes, the only conclusion that can happen which does not upset anyone. Yet people carry as though this has not been said many many many times.

 

One way of judging this is to note that it is always the same four people who say they really want to calculate by hand, who then go on to ignore that everyone asks for the readout to be optional, and carry on claiming they will be forced to have one and that this is a reason for nobody else to have one in stock.

 

This is not a valid reason, it is not helping. It is also rather disingenuous.

[Just Jim]

OK... one last comment about the majority vs. minority... and all that.

Just because it's the same few people that are always posting they want it added in... or the ones posting they don't want it... doesn't make them a minority... or majority... especially on this forum.

No... I learned a long, long time ago the vast majority on here are the unspoken readers and lurkers that don't comment on anything.

So how do I know this??? From my own Emiko Station thread. I've been watching and tracking my numbers for nearly two years now, and I learned a long time ago while I have the same 20 or so people who always comment on stuff... I'm averaging between a few hundred to over 1000 views a day! A day!!!  At the current rate I figure I'll easy pass half a million by the end of the year. 

Now, please don't misunderstand, I'm not trying to brag, or show off... I bring it up because I learned a long, long time ago most all of my readers are silent, or lurkers... and from what I've learned of the forum over the last couple years, this is the case with the forum in general. Most of the people on the forum never comment on anything.

So, again... I am not going to say one way or the other if I'm in the majority or minority on this... because I have no proof one way or the other. And I am NOT going to base it on just what I read here.

The answer is simple, and can satisfy everyone... And there's a big T-storm heading our way, so that's my last word on the subject. I'm logging off now.

[Greenfire32]

part of the reason why I spend 99% of my time on the Mun or Minmus and have only ever been to Duna once is because I have a severe respect for my Kerbals. I've been playing since before the mun was even in the game and I've never (yes, NEVER) lost a kerbal. Why? Because if I don't think I can bring them safely home, I don't send them.

A Delta-V and TWR readout would greatly increase the amount of missions I'd be comfortable sending my little dudes on.

[GoSlash27]

1 hour ago, John FX said:

So don't refer to my call for compromise as `tyranny by majority` if you want a sensible discussion.

John FX,

 I didn't. I referred to the argument "there's more of us so we should get what we want" as tyranny by majority. I'm cool with the rest of it. If *you* go back and look at what *I* wrote, you'll see we're actually in agreement on how it should be handled; make it available but optional.

Best,
-Slashy

[LoSBoL]

2 hours ago, Just Jim said:

I'm not going to argue... or make an "educated guess". Do not try and draw me into that trap. I refuse to fight about it.  

I made a proposal to implement it with an option to disable it, which should satisfy both sides. Now I'm going to go back to bug-testing. Good day.

Me stating my opinion is considered luring you in to a trap so we can have a fight? I can't help it if that is what you gather from me merely stating my opinion. Don't be offended.

1 hour ago, GoSlash27 said:

And again, it's immaterial anyway. Nobody knows what the "majority" is or what the "majority" wants, and nobody should care because that's not a valid basis for making a change.

Best,
-Slashy

You've said that a couple of times, I wholehartly dissagree. Its a valid reason and generally a good thing if a gamecompany listens to the majority of the players so they can enjoy the game better. I agree with John FX that its better to suit the majority then to be held hostage by a small minority of players going NIMBY.

Its a non issue anyway, there are 75+ toggle switches to make your game the way it suits you best, it can do with another toggle.

Edited March 20, 2018 by LoSBoL

[LoSBoL]

2 hours ago, Cpt Kerbalkrunch said:

A guess would still be just that; a guess. Judging by the number of topics and posts over the years, you would think most players can't land on the Mun either. Which is obviously not true. This topic will mostly be one-sided in terms of posts and topics. Since it's not currently in the game, no one bothers to start a topic about how it shouldn't be in the game. There will always be people who don't want it or feel they don't need it. Some like to wing it, as I do, and some like to do the calculations themselves. I'm not so sure there's a majority anywhere on this endless topic.

I'll say again, though, I'm not opposed to seeing it added to the game. I would like it to be locked at first, though. Rather than being unlocked through the tech tree or building upgrades, I think it should become available after your first successful trip to the Mun and back. Something along the lines of "you now have new insight into the requirements for space travel". Auto unlocked, of course, in sandbox. I don't see how it wouldn't work that way. Your first Mun landing is a huge accomplishment and shows that you're ready for more in-depth exploration. I'd like to see it added at some point but, again, I don't think they ever will. Maybe in KSP2.

There are plenty of topics how 'things' shouldn't be in the game. Not does a topic about questioning how to reach the Mun relate to the questioning of a feature of the game.  I've seen plenty of topics being opened about D/V, here and on reddit. On the forum everytime the same faces pop up to reply and just about every topic includes the Harvester profacy. I can make an educated guess from those topics.

Edited March 20, 2018 by LoSBoL

[Warzouz]

Most of us are long time players, the question is totally biased. The more we played, the more biased the answer is. Sure long time players like most of us are able to calculate that for a Jool mission - more probably, they don't calculate, they KNOW DV tables. That's not the point. (I can and I don't want to have an excel sheet to do it - I use an excel sheet when I don't have the game on my computer _i.e. at work..._ and want to do some dirty designs )

The real question is not asking if we want DV reading or not in the game  The real question is do we use DV reading mods or not for most of our games. That's not an opinion on what the game should be, but a fact about what the game IS.

As for Console, I would really want to know what % of players really go to Jool. I bet not much...

[klgraham1013]

If it wasn't for KER, I wouldn't be a long time player.  I would have probably dropped the game 2 months in after 0.18.  I would casually pop in every year to see how that early access game I paid for was doing.  Each time, seeing the same failures of design over and over again. 

If it wasn't for mods, I would have dropped this game a long time ago.  DV readout being the most important among them.

[Just Jim]

1 hour ago, LoSBoL said:

Me stating my opinion is considered luring you in to a trap so we can have a fight? I can't help it if that is what you gather from me merely stating my opinion. Don't be offended.

No.... You said the majority agrees with you....

I said there is no hard evidence to support which side is the majority

Then you said I could "make and educated guess" based on how many times it's been brought up... 

And THAT is the trap I refuse to fall into, because educated guesses are just that... guessing!!! And at this point it would just be us arguing back and forth over who's OPINION is right and who's isn't. 

I'm not going to sit here and waste my time posting comment after comment trying to change your opinion... nor am I going to sit here and have people try over and over to change my mind about it... that's what I mean by "I'm not going fighting about it".

There is a simple compromise solution I already agreed to. And I respect your opinion, please respect mine.

[John FX]

1 hour ago, Just Jim said:

There is a simple compromise solution I already agreed to.

There very much is. It is plain. It has been stated.

Back on topic, I agree the stock game is not very much fun without a Dv and TWR readout.

EDIT :

3 hours ago, GoSlash27 said:

John FX,

 I didn't. I referred to the argument "there's more of us so we should get what we want" as tyranny by majority. I'm cool with the rest of it. If *you* go back and look at what *I* wrote, you'll see we're actually in agreement on how it should be handled; make it available but optional.

Best,
-Slashy

And if you look back through the thread you will find that the post where I said

On 3/19/2018 at 6:54 PM, John FX said:

1,  some people really do like to calculate Dv by hand

2,  many many more people do not want to do this even if the maths were explained to them

3,  a lot of players get turned off by the lack of information in the stock game

4,  if a Dv readout were to be introduced there is no reason it should take away from the game of the players who do not want to use it.

5,  of course a Dv readout would not cope with every single case

6,  `5` does not matter because the people who build those `edge case` craft are mostly the ones who do not care so much about Dv

 

I see from the posts above we are at `3`, could we move this on to the conclusion please?

The conclusion is that it should be introduced, as an option, and with a caveat that it is not perfect in every case.

 

you will find it was many many hours before you posted

7 hours ago, GoSlash27 said:

This is just an argument for tyranny by majority.

So when you ignored my call for a compromise and used inflammatory language like `tyranny by majority` afterwards simply because I said more people wanted it than did not then accused me of not reading what you said I hope you can see why that was frustrating. Also, I do not think you are right that the majority matters less than a minority.

If you truly want the compromise, notice when people suggest it, suggest it yourself, and stop being so binary in your interpretation of what is being posted. Nobody wants to force you to have a readout you do not want. If you continue to insist they are then don't get upset at me when you get called out on it. If you agree, agree. If you do not, do not. But please stop with the wind up language that is only flaming this thread up.

I know you have been part of these discussions before where the conclusion was that an optional Dv readout would not detract from your game but would enhance the game of others. Why you choose to act as though that is not the case I do not know.

 

So, I ask one last time

 

On 3/19/2018 at 6:54 PM, John FX said:

could we move this on to the conclusion please?

The conclusion is that it should be introduced, as an option, and with a caveat that it is not perfect in every case.

 

Edited March 20, 2018 by John FX
fed up with people pointlessly causing conflict

[invision]

if anyone wants to see how to navigate space and go to other planets i stream on steam and you can watch how its done or ask me for help in the chat box. just click the link is in signature and it will send you right to my stream.

[GoSlash27]

JohnFX,

 There's nothing I can say in response to anything in your last post that wouldn't simply be a repeat of my earlier comments, just as there's nothing you have said in this post that isn't simply a repeat of your earlier comments.

 I'd just as soon not bicker back and forth with you over something that 1) we fundamentally agree on and 2) are both powerless to solve. You're going to have to just go ahead and be angry.

Best,
-Slashy

[Warzouz]

Hey guyz, the game is not even capable of calculating correctly a burn time. Lots of N/A... Hopefully, the community is here to FIX the game. (thanks @Snark).

N/A .... It's so ridiculous when you see it. Don't expect too much of a DV display.

[GoSlash27]

2 hours ago, John FX said:

If you truly want the compromise, notice when people suggest it, suggest it yourself, and stop being so binary in your interpretation of what is being posted. Nobody wants to force you to have a readout you do not want.

Perhaps you should go back to page 2; 2 full days before you showed up and "proposed" an idea that we were already on board with

Best,
-Slashy

 

[LoSBoL]

12 hours ago, Just Jim said:

No.... You said the majority agrees with you....

I said there is no hard evidence to support which side is the majority

Then you said I could "make and educated guess" based on how many times it's been brought up... 

And THAT is the trap I refuse to fall into, because educated guesses are just that... guessing!!! And at this point it would just be us arguing back and forth over who's OPINION is right and who's isn't. 

I'm not going to sit here and waste my time posting comment after comment trying to change your opinion... nor am I going to sit here and have people try over and over to change my mind about it... that's what I mean by "I'm not going fighting about it".

There is a simple compromise solution I already agreed to. And I respect your opinion, please respect mine.

Thank you for taking the time to explain. I did however not say the majority agrees with me, You must have been mistaken me for somebody else, which would make sense in explaining the overpresumptousness of the rest of your post.

I'm sorry that my post aggravated you, there was no intent from my part for doing so. 

Edited March 21, 2018 by LoSBoL

[FleshJeb]

My thoughts on this thread so far:

1. That was just about the best, most elegant Catch-22 trap I've ever seen set up. 
2. Balance Fallacy - Not all opinions / preferences have equal merit, and don't have to be treated as such. The opinion's majority and minority status is pertinent, and is one of the most important criteria by which its merit should be determined.
3. My opinion is that educational games should be designed with low barriers to entry. KSP scales up in self-assigned difficulty just fine.

My vote is for stock DV readouts with no option for turning them off. I have too many settings to deal with already and I don't need another. My opinion matters and must be given just as much consideration as the majority one.

Compromise: If you want to turn it off, you're free to install a mod that disables it.

If I write that caveman mod, it will also disable the Navball in all views. #NavBallIsCheating

It will also disable the Map View. #MapViewSchmapView

Going interplanetary will involve astronavigation by memorizing the skybox and pressing a protractor to the screen. #StraightOnTillMorning

...Oh wait, that last one is almost true.

[GoSlash27]

1 hour ago, FleshJeb said:

My vote is for stock DV readouts with no option for turning them off. I have too many settings to deal with already and I don't need another.

Compromise: If you want to turn it off, you're free to install a mod that disables it.

If I write that caveman mod....

As long as you're writing mods, they can make the DV and TWR displays optional. You can easily write a mod to default it on.

Nice try
-Slashy

[blakemw]

I'm also strongly of the opinion that the game should have:

• DeltaV and TWR by stage both in the VAB (always) and in flight (after mission control upgrades). Should show VAC only, not ATM.
• Vertical Velocity as a digital readout not one of those analog logarithmic scale speed-o-meter things - it's hard to read.
• Horizontal Velocity - get rid of the analog thing for vertical velocity and the horizontal velocity could fit in the same space.
• True altitude over terrain and not only in certain IVA cockpits but as a digital readout. It can be a toggle like Navball mode.

And I don't really insist on the vertical/horizontal speed things, it's just that since vertical speed is already taking up space in the UI it could be an easy to read digital readout instead.

Speaking of toggles. When in Surface Mode, we tend to care about vertical velocity, horizontal velocity and true altitude over terrain, when in Orbit mode we tend to care about Periapsis, Apoapsis and altitude above sea level. I'm just saying, there's potential here. The altitude and vertical velocity thing could be transformable like the navball between showing stuff we care about when taking off/landing/flying, and stuff we care about when in space.

Edited March 21, 2018 by blakemw

[Pthigrivi]

17 hours ago, GoSlash27 said:

 I'd just as soon not bicker back and forth with you over something that 1) we fundamentally agree on and 2) are both powerless to solve. You're going to have to just go ahead and be angry.

But Slashy, someone is being wrong on the internet.

And just for the record, though I think players should have some better flight planning options in stock, I don't actually agree with the statement "Kerbal isn't fun without dV." It most definitely is. Im sure I landed on Tylo back in the day armed with ksp.olex.biz and a calculator. For me its more a question of convenience and broadening the game's appeal. 

[archnem]

I can calculate dV and TWR with an abacus and slide rule, so therefore everyone should and not rely on a computer to do computing for them.  I can also calculate orbits with a protractor, compass, and counting on my fingers, so therefore they should get rid of the entire tracking station in stock.  It detracts from my fun.

[suicidejunkie]

I believe that easy dV numbers take away from the Kerbalness.  The game starts out as Space Cowboys venturing into the Wild Black, but once you've internalized how space works, that shine of excitement and danger and heroic rescues wears off.  It is the sort of thing Jeb is famous for.

Refining and measuring your missions and dV budget to run a tight and efficient ship is an entirely different kind of fun.  I mostly associate it with Val due to the timing of her introduction as I played.

 

However, I feel like once you've gone down the road of calculating dV for things, you can't truly go back to that Space Cowboy life.  I wouldn't want to deprive new players of the experience. 

I also wouldn't want to make dV calculations a chore for those of us who have passed on to the math side, but mods and spreadsheets have that covered. 

 

Personally I use the side spreadsheet method for sanity checks before attempting a landing, and for checking my 'score' after a really good gravity turn but try to avoid using it for mundane things.  Kerbin's SoI is already a quiet paved suburbia to me rather than the wilderness full of tumble-roids it used to be, and I don't want to industrialize it more than I have to.

 

[GoSlash27]

5 hours ago, archnem said:

I can calculate dV and TWR with an abacus and slide rule, so therefore everyone should and not rely on a computer to do computing for them.  I can also calculate orbits with a protractor, compass, and counting on my fingers, so therefore they should get rid of the entire tracking station in stock.  It detracts from my fun.

(Citation needed)

Besides, it's a caricature of an argument that nobody else has actually made. Perhaps you should contact John FX and ask him to make you a mod to remove that stuff

Best,
-Slashy

Edited March 21, 2018 by GoSlash27