Make these two female Kerbals stock

[severedsolo]

Tbh, I would have no problem if Bill got replaced with a female engineer. I don't know why but I really hate Bill.

Anyway, I'd basically support the idea of letting you just pick your own starting kerbals (and reducing that number to 1 of each). It would solve this "problem" and also let me avail my hatred of Bill.

Everybody wins (except Bill, but nobody cares about him).

[Combatsmithen]

OH NO. ITS 2018! ITS THE CURRENT YEAR! WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING. Please. Stop. Cease. I can't take this nonsense.

8 hours ago, Blasty McBlastblast said:

nobody has mentioned that there are zero female kerbals working in the VAB or SPH...  where are the lady technicians, labourers, and mechanics? don't they want STEM careers? 

At my school, we have a robotics team. Some teams are 50% female and always make that a major proponent. We are effectively 100% male and we do have 1 but her car had been broken down the majority of the season so she wasn't able to come. Females are welcome, just no female in our school is interested in joining.... Its the way it is.

[FleshJeb]

9 hours ago, steve_v said:

As kerbals-for-hire, perhaps. As starting crew, you loose an element of gameplay progression - available crew being limited by available funds.
With 6 for free, I'd not need to hire any at all until late in the game, when the cost doesn't matter. Meaningful decision lost. 4 is too many already.

That's a good argument. There should be a difficulty setting for number of no-cost starting kerbals. I admit, I don't play career mode. I spent about 8 hours trying and decided the whole thing was so poorly implemented that it wasn't worth my time.

3 hours ago, The_Rocketeer said:

Then someone at Squad had an idea to boost sales

.Why do you hate capitalism?

3 hours ago, The_Rocketeer said:

sex-equality activists.

Heterosexuals. I like being around women--They're fun and they smell good. OK, that last part is a lie, they drink beer and fart a lot.

[GoSlash27]

[Snip] Ironically, I'd prefer to have more female kerbals around simply for the added variety. Moreover, my agency is 100% egalitarian and merit- based. If you are capable of getting yourself haplessly stranded in orbit, you have a spot on my roster. I literally have no interest in (or even any idea of) the gender makeup of my roster; all are equally qualified. But having said that...

  I don't want KSP promoting any ideology, even one that I agree with. I certainly don't want it promoting *this* ideology, which I am opposed to. [Snip] I object to any change in this game merely to promote some agenda, particularly this one. I need a better reason than that.

Best,
-Slashy

[The_Rocketeer]

On 4/18/2018 at 11:22 AM, FleshJeb said:

Why do you hate capitalism?

I can't tell if you're being ironic. Assuming so, very funny!
 

On 4/18/2018 at 11:22 AM, FleshJeb said:

On 4/18/2018 at 7:04 AM, The_Rocketeer said:

sex-equality activists.

Heterosexuals. I like being around women--They're fun and they smell good. OK, that last part is a lie, they drink beer and fart a lot.

This part has me lost. I can appreciate the "beer etc" joke, but I'm confused why you quoted me...?

@GoSlash27 behind the limitation of literate communication, I think we two are in broad agreement.

[snip]

Edited April 24, 2018 by Dman979
Removed reference to deleted content, politics.

[Hotaru]

While I agree that "PC for PC's sake" is insufficient reason, what's wrong with "so girls enjoy the game more?"

And what does it hurt? Sure, it's promoting an ideology, but it's doing that either way, gender equality or gender disparity. There is no opting out. Declaring the game to be free of gender bias does not make it so: the fact remains that 90% of named characters and 100% of VAB/SPH workers are male.

I've spent my entire life as a gamer being frustrated by endless resistance to allowing girl characters anywhere in video games. Playable characters, named NPCs, random background characters, enemies, whatever--whenever you suggest adding a few girls you're met with an infinity of excuses. I wish I could articulate what it's like to be constantly excluded from playing the games you want because you're forced to play them as a boy character and that takes all the fun out of it--or how genuinely exciting it is when you finally get a game that does have decent girl characters!

Of course, from the opposite point of view it must seem like an endless barrage of feminist complaints about no female characters, and I can see how people get sick of hearing it. The difference is this: adding female characters doesn't hurt anyone--whereas leaving them out does. Forget about political correctness, feminism, whatever: consider what actual effect this has on people who play the game. Maybe you don't notice that there aren't female VAB workers--but I notice it every time I happen to glance at the floor, and it always makes me a little sad.

And again, I'm not saying it has to be exactly fifty-fifty. Just that adding a couple more girl characters in places we don't already have them would go a disproportionately long way toward improving at least one girl's experience of the game. A few female VAB workers would be worth more to me than all the textures and parts and game mechanics in the world--because then every time I happened to look down at the VAB floor, it'd make me happy to see a couple of girls down there.

[GoSlash27]

Hotaru,

 I actually want to see female kerbals out on the production floor merely to liven the place up a bit. But then again...

I've also always wanted my VAB and SPH to be a "Ming the Merciless"- style evil lair, where my starved minions are forced to toil in dark, brutal conditions at the mercy of their lash- wielding overlords. Every time I look down there and see happy workers in their clean workspace and 401k retirement plans, it makes me kind of sad. After all, it's not like there's salary and operating expenses dialed in the budget in career mode, and you've got to make 'em work somehow...

I see no reason why I shouldn't have that so I enjoy the game more

 Diff'rent strokes (no pun intended)...

Best,

-Slashy

 

Edited April 18, 2018 by GoSlash27

[LoSBoL]

My goodness what is happening here...

All I can say is I'm glad Squad chose to introduce female Kerbals when it left the early development stage and didn't ask for further opinions on the matter. I also think that doing so evaded more critique then it would have got if females where left out of the game. It's an educational space game where you shoot characters into space, and its good to be able to emphasize with those characters. If KSP should have been genderless, they should have made it genderless to begin with, or made it genderless when they hit 1.0.

Anyway, I like Valentina, she's at least as much part of the crew as the rest, and I wouldn't mind having more then 4 orange suit kerbals, I could use them, male or female. Or maybe even better, a way of earning them in some way by playing, why shouldn't certain white suits be able to become veterans? we do play decades with them.

[GoSlash27]

LoSBoL,
 I was also on the Val hype train. Still am, in fact. I like her ongoing rivalry with Jeb.

3 minutes ago, LoSBoL said:

Or maybe even better, a way of earning them in some way by playing, why shouldn't certain white suits be able to become veterans? we do play decades with them.

Agreed. I think any kerbal should become an orange suit once they gain enough experience.

But as for adding more kerbals at the outset of the game... Not so much.

Best,
-Slashy

[Hotaru]

Needless to say, the lack of female VAB workers or named characters is demoralizing (to some of us) in a very different way than the lack of other features we might wish for. Particularly torture chambers. Not that I don't see the appeal.

The point I'm trying to get across is, this really matters to some people. Not having fuel hoses or clouds or decent sized landing legs is annoying, sure, but not having female kerbals is depressing. Unfortunately, there's no way I can convey exactly how depressing it is, or why it's depressing, except to ask you to take my word for it. But depressing it remains.

Once again: who would it hurt? You want to hear a reason why we should have more girl characters--I want to hear a reason why not.

 

(I do think more than four orange suits would be a bit much--in fact I think four is already too many. Personally, I like the suggestion to swap Bill for a girl engineer. Another option would be to start with three pilots--Jeb, Val, and one new one--and then get two each of scientists and engineers--Bill, Bob, and two new ones--later on. Or abolish starting orange suits entirely and make them earned like stars. Or have a pool of a dozen or so to pick from. In any case, it's not an insurmountable problem.)

[FleshJeb]

@The_Rocketeer Yes I was being ironic.  I took a wild guess as to what political "box" you fit in to point out the flaw in the argument.  For a game company to act "socially responsible to boost sales" should be expected and encouraged within that box.

Second quote: I was suggesting two things:

• Advocating for balanced gender representation isn't limited to "sex-equality activists", it's simply a common good.
• Anyone who disagrees should have their "masculinity" called into question. Which was dirty, and I retract it. Beer and farts are still fun though.

I think "egalitarianism" is a useful term. The original term "feminism" seems to have been poisoned beyond constructive use. There are a couple of root causes:

• The misandrists that "feminisim" is now conflated with are few in number, but they happen to be very noisy.
• The people who do the conflating greatly exaggerate the influence of the misandrists. They use them as a foil to say, "See, these people are jerks, so everyone on that side is a jerk. Vote for me!" That tactic is commonly used by politicians on all sides, and it's divisive, unproductive crap. So, I make it a point to question the premises of outraged reactionaries, especially if I agree with them.

 @Hotaru has presented a good argument that I think we all have some agreement on. It's a "good enough" rationale, without getting into the weeds.

Final note, in case it wasn't clear. I appreciate everyone who has a passion for spaceflight and exploration, and it's a pleasure to share that with you all.

[adsii1970]

Why not, for the sake of argument, have KSP allow the player simply to determine who starts as the first crew? Create a pool of candidates which contains both male and female Kerbals, and then have them all start as "white suits."

The orange suit only comes out after the fifth star has been earned...

 

[DarkOwl57]

On 4/16/2018 at 5:53 PM, Alrightythen214 said:

Let's be good feminists

 

No

[The_Rocketeer]

@Hotaru surely you are only limiting yourself here? How do stereotypically female kerbals demoralise you less than completely sexless kerbals? Why do you assume that kerbals with eyelashes are more female that kerbals with longer heads? I think you ar trapped by your own prejudices here.

@FleshJeb fair enough, I was being selective in my narrative, but for what it's worth I don't think balanced sex representation is a common good. I think neutral representation is good, i.e. designing the game to shut down the conversation in the first place. 'Balanced representation' is a road to endless variety - blacks, whites, males, females, gingers, vegans and even hedgehogs will all eventually be demanded on the basis of balance  - which would be nonsensical and awfully wasteful. But you used another word here, which was gender. That's a whole other kettle of fish that I have much less patience with. All that aside, beer and farts are certainly great... so long as there are no ladies present.

[Snip]

[Mark Kerbin]

Kinda like the idea, naming scheme needs work.

[Spricigo]

3 minutes ago, adsii1970 said:

Why not, for the sake of argument, have KSP allow the player simply to determine who starts as the first crew?

Not just for the sake of argument. I meant it as a serious suggestion in my previous post a page ago.

 

 

 

 

[adsii1970]

1 minute ago, Spricigo said:

Not just for the sake of argument. I meant it as a serious suggestion in my previous post a page ago.

 

 

 

 

I don't think we will see it in any version of 1.X; the game is too far in development and too many people are playing it to radically change how characters are spawned. It would, virtually, wipe out any version of a saved game that was made under the old game parameters. I, for one, would NOT update past 1.4.2 IF a 1.5 version was changed in a way to break my saved games.

Now, to add it as DLC (where players have an option to buy it or not) or to save it as a part of KSP 2.X, that would make more sense.

[Hotaru]

5 minutes ago, The_Rocketeer said:

@Hotaru surely you are only limiting yourself here? How do stereotypically female kerbals demoralise you less than completely sexless kerbals? Why do you assume that kerbals with eyelashes are more female that kerbals with longer heads? I think you ar trapped by your own prejudices here.

 

I'm a transgender girl. I am well aware of stereotypes and prejudices.

I agree it's not clear what the biological sex is of the kerbals in the game (or even if they have one). It is clear, however, that they are identifying as male and female, and are intended to be identified as such by the audience. And that's good enough for me.

[adsii1970]

On 4/18/2018 at 12:42 PM, GoSlash27 said:

[Snip] Ironically, I'd prefer to have more female kerbals around simply for the added variety. Moreover, my agency is 100% egalitarian and merit- based. If you are capable of getting yourself haplessly stranded in orbit, you have a spot on my roster. I literally have no interest in (or even any idea of) the gender makeup of my roster; all are equally qualified. But having said that...

  I don't want KSP promoting any ideology, even one that I agree with. I certainly don't want it promoting *this* ideology, which I am opposed to. [Snip] I object to any change in this game merely to promote some agenda, particularly this one. I need a better reason than that.

Best,
-Slashy

I agree with this, @GoSlash27. And I will explain why...

[Redacted]

I will discuss it in a private message with anyone who asks but do not wish to bring politics into the forum any more than it already has.

I come to the forum or play KSP, I do so as an attempt to escape real life. I don't care about anything political or any other thing. KSP and the forum are my escape from the grueling realities of teaching on a university campus (and I teach at three). Not everything has to be made PC nor does it have to be bent into a political statement. Fun can be fun... and should be fun without being preached at.

I am an equal-opportunity employer of Kerbals... regardless of their gender or their specialty. So, when I visit the astronaut complex... the first five always get clicked, regardless of who they are. And if you're a tourist or someone stuck in orbit, yeah, you're added to my sucker victim astronaut roster, too...

[Snark]

Folks,

Let's try to keep it on topic (KSP) and off out-of-bounds areas (politics) please, okay?

This is a thread about the idea of crew roster choices in KSP, as pertains to gender.  It's a perfectly reasonable and normal type of thread to have in KSP-- "Would you like to see more X in KSP, and why or why not?"  For many possible values of X.

This is not a thread about feminism, or what you think about people who identify themselves as feminists, or what the definition of "feminists" is, or political correctness, or capitalism, or What's Wrong With Society Today, or whatever-else.  Those things are politics, and we will not get into political arguments here.  Politics is out-of-bounds for the forums, and for good reason.

We haven't gone completely off the rails here yet... but we're teetering awfully close to the edge, so please dial it back a notch, okay?

It's fine to say that you'd like more female kerbals in the game (or that you wouldn't).  It's fine to say why you would (or wouldn't)... within reason.  But if your reason why (or why not) happens to be political... then please don't go into detail about the politics.

There are plenty of other places on the internet to discuss politics to your heart's content. Let's leave it out of our little cartoon space game, shall we?

Thank you for your understanding.

[Spricigo]

41 minutes ago, adsii1970 said:

I don't think we will see it in any version of 1.X; the game is too far in development and too many people are playing it to radically change how characters are spawned. It would, virtually, wipe out any version of a saved game that was made under the old game parameters. I, for one, would NOT update past 1.4.2 IF a 1.5 version was changed in a way to break my saved games.

 

Sorry, what is that radical change you talk about?

The only relevant difference about Jedediah Kerman and Sean Kerman in a existing game is a line of text in the savefile that says Jeb is a Veteran.

Edited April 18, 2018 by Spricigo

[adsii1970]

1 minute ago, Spricigo said:

 

Sorry, what is that radical change you talk about?

The only relevant difference about Jedediah Kerman and Sean Kerman in a existing game is a line of text in the savefile that says Jeb is a Veteran.

 

Because the way the game starts would fundamentally have to change. That means new code would have to be written to allow for the user to select the first crew. It would generate additional lines within the persistent file which would not have been there before:

• Redefine the experience level of existing Kerbals to attain the orange space suit
• Redefine existing Kerbals to allow them to fit into the new Kerbal generation standard of the game.

And this is where the problem comes from. Any one of those changes would be enough to render an old saved game as unplayable or incompatible with a new version of KSP. Ask any of the old timers. Every time Squad rolled out a new update, there was always the panic factor involved.

I've been playing KSP since the .18 days. And I lost saves with every game update except 1.2 and 1.3, but that was because the major change in the game that dealt directly with Kerbals was when Valentina was added. I am not sure what all was added when they did the change in 1.0, but I lost a save game where I had a space station orbiting Jool that 120 Kerbals called home...  I'd really rather not do that again. I get attached to my little green guys.

[adsii1970]

[snipped quote]

I go in and edit the persistent file ever so often. I love the dumb ones who happen to be badS so I change their traits. They get happy-crazy when they're launched, achieve orbit, and return. Oh, and some even let out what looks like a laugh right before they impact something.

Edited April 18, 2018 by Snark
Quoted content that has since been removed

[Snark]

Some posts have been removed, that were doing one or more of the following:

• Joking about politics, right after we said "no politics please"
• Saying "Okay, I'll stay off politics, but <political argument>", right after we said "no politics please".

Please.  Just don't.  Thank you.

[Hotaru]

28 minutes ago, adsii1970 said:

Because the way the game starts would fundamentally have to change.

All they'd have to do would be:

-Make all kerbals default to status "Applicant" rather than "Available."

-Add a few more preset names and sets of stats that are guaranteed to show up (or remove the existing ones so you get only randoms).

-Make the "Veteran" flag always default to "False," switching it to "True" later on based on kerbal experience.

-Possibly change hiring costs so that the first few are free.

None of the above should have any effect on the syntax of save files. Done with a bit of care, I can't think of a reason why any those changes would break existing saves. Already you can edit your persistence file to not contain Jeb, Bill, Bob, and Val and it'll still work fine. I did that in my current career without ill effect: I started with Kerzer, Burmin, and Melxie, all pilots. I didn't make them "Veterans," but I probably could've and it would have registered them correctly as orange suits.

 

Personally, the way I'd go would be to add a few more "preset" kerbals--enough for, say, 3 of each class--and let the user have their first 3 or 4 hires for free. That'd give us plenty of room to sneak in a few more girl characters without stopping anyone who still wants to start with good old Jeb, Bill, and Bob for old times' sake.

As far as their names goes--personally I'm not crazy about naming them after real people. While I've certainly gotten attached to Valentina since she was introduced, her name was not the one I'd have picked. And I have to agree that naming them after real people could potentially be much more of a political statement than just including them would be. I'm not really strongly opposed to it either, but if it were me, I'd just pick a few random names that I thought were cute and leave it at that.