Sudden and extreme negative review spike?

[LoSBoL]

5 minutes ago, QCRulzz said:

It doesnt specify HOW they access the photos.

Personal information is information that identifies you and that may be used to contact you online or offline. The Company collects personal information from you on a voluntary basis. 

https://www.take2games.com/privacy/#3

8 minutes ago, QCRulzz said:

he transfer of any personal information and other information to Licensor, its affiliates, vendors, and business partners, and to certain other third parties, such as governmental authorities, in the U.S. and other countries located outside Europe or your home country, including countries that may have lower standards of privacy protection;

This section doesnt appeal to me at all, considering I don't get to decide WHO is referred to when they mention them. You can collect these infos and use them INTERNALY, but sharing it with third parties, what the actual ****?!

With whom, if anyone, your personal information will be shared

Third parties that come to my mind are Steam and/or the Playstation Network.

14 minutes ago, QCRulzz said:

And if you win a pluchie, they'll have to ask you where to ship it anyway, because people move around and you may want it shipped at a different place from your home.

Yes, but they may only ask and registrar your address for shipment, if they are able to collect it from you. Which they can't without you giving them consent to do so.

[QCRulzz]

Btw, I am the 600 hours guy you mentionned, @Cpt Kerbalkrunch. Supported the game until EARLY dev, but the recent changes to the EULA disgust me and is against what I think a game company should be protecting. I have no shame in giving the game a negative review, until they take steps to restore the EULA to a respected state.

[KSK]

As @LoSBoL pointed out, it's possible to find perfectly innocuous or practical reasons why TT need access to various bits of data and why they need to be able to share them with third parties. From their  point of view it's obviously preferable to get the kind of blanket approval set out in the EULA rather than having to go back to their customers every time they want to do something with your data, particularly if they're just using it for standard transactions.

However, given that 'harvest as much data as we can get away with and flog it to advertisers' is now a well established internet business model, it's no real surprise that broad-brush data policies are starting to be viewed with suspicion.

Hopefully there's a happy medium here but  I'm not entirely optimistic. 

[LoSBoL]

1 hour ago, KSK said:

As @LoSBoL pointed out, it's possible to find perfectly innocuous or practical reasons why TT need access to various bits of data and why they need to be able to share them with third parties. From their  point of view it's obviously preferable to get the kind of blanket approval set out in the EULA rather than having to go back to their customers every time they want to do something with your data, particularly if they're just using it for standard transactions.

However, given that 'harvest as much data as we can get away with and flog it to advertisers' is now a well established internet business model, it's no real surprise that broad-brush data policies are starting to be viewed with suspicion.

Hopefully there's a happy medium here but  I'm not entirely optimistic. 

I can agree with that fully, I would rather have a less intrusive EULA for KSP rather then a generic one covering the whole of Take 2's portfolio.

I take some comfort with giving information on 'voluntary basis' and them not crawling that info from my machine. The day KSP does become spyware though, that would be the time when the feces hit the fan. But whe haven't reached that as of yet, and I doubt it will come that far.

[radonek]

4 hours ago, LoSBoL said:

The EULA isn't important, Take 2's privacy policy however is. And everybody jumping the EULA bandwagon neglects reading the privacy policy. There you can find as to how, and why certain information is gathered, and what's it used for. Reading that sheds light on the EULA and then the EULA starts making sense. 

Here's a link to Take 2's privacy policy. 

https://www.take2games.com/privacy/

Yeah, reading that show clearly why are people so angry. Such blatant statement of total disregard of privacy is hardly going to win positive reaction. From anyone who took time to read it anyway.

[KSK]

4 hours ago, LoSBoL said:

The EULA isn't important, Take 2's privacy policy however is. And everybody jumping the EULA bandwagon neglects reading the privacy policy. There you can find as to how, and why certain information is gathered, and what's it used for. Reading that sheds light on the EULA and then the EULA starts making sense. 

Whilst the plural of 'anecdote' isn't 'data', the EULA was important for me.

I was pretty much on the fence as to whether to buy the expansion - the new parts looked okay but I've never been particularly into building historical replicas. Likewise I've never much cared for taking part in forum challenges, so the Mission Builder wasn't  a big selling point. And in general, I wasn't that keen on an an expansion which seemed to be doubling-down on the 'there's a mod for that' strategy of having the playerbase create a ton of unpaid content for Squad. Which, in case it wasn't obvious, is purely my own opinion and I fully expect that others will differ.

However, the price for Making History was good and yeah, new parts and some neat touches, so I wasn't ruling it out completely. 

However, I do spend a lot of time over in the Fanworks section and have put a lot of time into my own KSP novel, so I was curious to see what the new EULA had to say about such things. Turns out it had quite a lot, including this gem (snipped for brevity but I think my point still stands if you read the whole clause):

Quote

The Software may allow you to create content, including, but not limited to, a gameplay map, scenario, screenshot, car design, character, item, or video of your game play. *snip* You hereby waive and agree never to assert any moral rights of paternity, publication, reputation, or attribution with respect to Licensor's and other players' use and enjoyment of such assets in connection with the Software and related goods and services under applicable law.

So it seems that TT are quite happy to release an expansion which is very largely based on a set of tools for players to create content - and then refuse to credit players as the creators of that content. Note that this is an explicit waiver from the players rather than a clause that TT may or may not choose to enforce in practice. Given my comments above, you'll be unsurprised to hear that this did not sit well with me and in fact it was the tipping point which made me decide not to buy the expansion. I have no interest in supporting a games publisher which thinks that that is an appropriate way to treat its playerbase.

 

[Johnny Wishbone]

Are we really going through this whole EULA thing again? Haven't we had enough threads about it already?

 

[Vanamonde]

20 minutes ago, Johnny Wishbone said:

Are we really going through this whole EULA thing again? Haven't we had enough threads about it already?

 

Yes, please. The EULA threads went bad and had to be closed. Let's not do that again, okay? 

[LordFerret]

12 hours ago, The Aziz said:

steam still has full rights to cancel your paid subscription for any game without a reason

Which is but one reason why I dumped Steam back in 2000 and never looked back. Some people just never learn. Make that 'sheeple'.

 

11 minutes ago, Johnny Wishbone said:

Are we really going through this whole EULA thing again? Haven't we had enough threads about it already?

 

You beat me to it.

 

TTWO is having issues, so I'm sure that's got something to do with it. Can you say Fortnite? TTWO's hope (only hope at this point as I see it) is Red Dead Redemption 2 ... lotta pros and cons on that one. Smarts are saying time to buy. We'll see.

[Thiagobs]

One good example of sharing data with "third parties" that happens to be located in "other countries located outside of europe" is Squad itself...

Take Two bought the "Kerbal" Intellectual Property, but unless I'm mistaken, Squad is still its own independent company, located in Mexico

[SupperRobin6394]

19 hours ago, klgraham1013 said:

A quick glance at the reviews suggest it was the EULA changes.  Don't worry.  Just as with the forums, Squad will stay silent, the community will forget after a month, things will resume as normal.

Pretty much how the internet works most of the time.

[Bill Phil]

6 hours ago, LordFerret said:

Which is but one reason why I dumped Steam back in 2000 and never looked back. Some people just never learn. Make that 'sheeple'.

Steam was released in '03...

[LordFerret]

48 minutes ago, Bill Phil said:

Steam was released in '03...

I stand corrected. The history of WON/Steam pretty much spells it out... see here. Count me as one of those 'disappointed'.

Maybe just to put it as 'a long time ago' would suffice.

[Ace in Space]

12 hours ago, QCRulzz said:

It doesnt specify HOW they access the photos. I dont want any game company sifting through my hard drive looking for photos. What I decide willingly to put a forum such as my age, gender and photos is my own decision and not anyone else's. If it ends up on the internet, then good for T2, but sharing it with third parties and this part,

he transfer of any personal information and other information to Licensor, its affiliates, vendors, and business partners, and to certain other third parties, such as governmental authorities, in the U.S. and other countries located outside Europe or your home country, including countries that may have lower standards of privacy protection;

This section doesnt appeal to me at all, considering I don't get to decide WHO is referred to when they mention them. You can collect these infos and use them INTERNALY, but sharing it with third parties, what the actual ****?!

And if you win a pluchie, they'll have to ask you where to ship it anyway, because people move around and you may want it shipped at a different place from your home.

Oh, for the love of- not this again.

Does it help to know that Take Two uses the same EULA for all their products, including the parts that may not be relevant to that product, because it's easier to maintain one generic EULA? Just because it's in the EULA doesn't mean their going to do anything with it. Take the company I work for - I'm a licensing support agent (as one of the many facets of my job), so I know a fair bit about the licensing terms for the products we sell. There is an entire. freaking. chapter. in our EULA, which describes in great detail the usage policy for a license type that doesn't even exist. As far as I know, it never has, and we don't have any plans to ever implement it. It's not even in our licensing database at all. But it's in the EULA.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know most EULAs don't necessarily specify how they're gathering data. But as far as I know, spyware (that is, trolling through your computer gathering files that have nothing to do with the product in question) is illegal. I'm no lawyer, but I suspect that a EULA cannot override the law. If they put in a clause that said they have the right to break into your house and take your stuff, and you signed the EULA, I'm pretty sure a judge in court would declare that contract invalid and say that they can't do that.

As for the "sharing your info" bit, that's pretty standard stuff. Back when this issue first blew up, someone did some digging and found out exactly what was being sent where for KSP, and it was just standard engine report-home type stuff. I don't remember exactly what, but it was harmless. It has to be written in big scary terms like just about everything in a EULA, because legal texts have to cover everything in great detail so nobody can pick loopholes out of it, and also so that it can cover any game the company owns, or will create/acquire at some point in the future. A lot of the EULA is nothing more than "just in case" clauses to cover their butts in unforeseen circumstances.

The vast majority of EULAs out there are just as draconian-sounding as this one, and have as many scary "we own you"-sounding clauses in there. Do you play other games? If so, why are you protesting this one specifically? I'll tell you why. It's because someone on the forums decided to scream "the sky is falling" and a lot of players looked at a EULA for the first time in their lives, and realized how scary legalese sounds. And now they're taking their panic and rage out on a game that doesn't deserve it.

</rant>

 

EDIT: Whoops, somehow missed that a second page existed - sorry for the delayed reaction here! I'm just so tired of the "KSP IS SPYWARE!" panic bandwagon.

Edited April 25, 2018 by Ace in Space

[steve_v]

1 hour ago, Ace in Space said:

Just because it's in the EULA doesn't mean their going to do anything with it.

Indeed, and the accusations of spying need to stop until such activity is actually found.

 

1 hour ago, Ace in Space said:

The vast majority of EULAs out there are just as draconian-sounding as this one, and have as many scary "we own you"-sounding clauses in there.

"everyone else is doing it too" does not make it right.

 

1 hour ago, Ace in Space said:

I'm just so tired of the "KSP IS SPYWARE!" panic bandwagon.

So am I. But that doesn't make it OK for companies to claim ownership of everything, past present and future, that they might ever learn about you, or try to stack the legal deck so ridiculously in favour of their position.
"We may take back the thing we sold you, at any time, without warning"  is not acceptable. Neither is "We may sell any information you give us, knowingly or otherwise, to anyone we like". The practice of writing such things into a document so dense and forbidding that nobody actually reads it until they're already screwed - this needs to stop.

Up until recently, KSPs EULA was fairly reasonable (and readable). Then that changed, a whole bunch of new rights were claimed, and people are angry. I get that.
TTI may not be able to enforce half the ridiculous clauses in there, they may never try. But that doesn't make them go away, and it doesn't make such "we own your soul"  clauses any less obnoxious.

Edited April 25, 2018 by steve_v

[radonek]

36 minutes ago, Ace in Space said:

If so, why are you protesting this one specifically?

Because KSP did not come with it, and it was one of reasons why I bought it. Because it essentially makes for a "bait-and-switch" scenario, which is probably illegal in every law framework in existence.

[Vanamonde]

This thread was not about the EULA.