Duna Outpost Mission Architecture Challenge

[Death Engineering]

"The future of Kerbality is going to bifurcate in two directions: Either it's going to become multi-planetary, or it's going to remain confined to one planet and eventually there's going to be an extinction event." 

- Elon Kerman

 

Duna Outpost Mission Architecture Challenge

Those baleful words spoken by Elon Kerman at a recent event featuring his latest rocket design inspired the Kerbal Federation to fully support an effort to establish a continuously Kerballed outpost on Duna.  In order to accomplish this goal, Elon Kerman has offered an unlimited supply of his company's latest heavy lifter, with some restrictions and requirements.

The basic requirement is to land a minimum of 4 kerbals on Duna before Year 5, Day 1, and then to develop and implement the mission architecture for a permanently Kerballed outpost on Duna before Year 10, Day 1. There is already one prototype of the heavy lifter on its way to the VAB and will be ready with payload for launch pad roll-out on Day 40. New lifters will be delivered on a regular, fixed schedule.

Excitement is high for this endeavor but in order to keep hardware contractors satisfied, achieving certain mission objectives will benefit the campaign's public opinion and ensure the rocket supplier will continue to provide new lifters beyond Year 10 Day 1.
 

Rules

Launch Vehicle

• The lifter is of your design and must not vary throughout the challenge. This lifter is referred to as the Standard Launch Vehicle (SLV).
• All mission hardware and all fuel used for interplanetary transfers must be launched using the SLV. The only exception to this rule is for ferrying crew to Low Kerbin Orbit (LKO), which is defined as Apoapsis between 75km - 180km.  
• Ready to launch lifters with installed payloads are prepared based on design and determined by Nominal Payload Mass (NPM). The NPM is the maximum payload that the SLV can deliver to LKO, without using any fuel of the payload itself. A payload may be used to perform final orbital insertion, but payloads cannot be deployed or activated until above 70km. 
• Launch pad SLV roll-out rate is calculated as: NPM * 8 for non-reusable or NPM * 6 for reusable designs. For example, a reusable SLV with a NMP of 30t will have a 180 day delivery cycle. A non-reusable SLV with the same NMP will have a 240 day delivery cycle.
• In order to qualify as "reusable", recovered launch stages must have comprised of at least 50% of the vehicles original lift-off mass (including payload).  Recovery of spent stages can be passive or active but must be demonstrated successfully at least once.
• There are no fuel transfers from the SLV to payload. 
• Payload fairing  is not part of payload mass, unless it leaves LKO. Any part that leaves LKO is NPM.
• Any type of shuttle can be used to deliver crew to LKO and there is no limit on how many crew shuttle missions can be launched, however only crew may be launched on these missions; no fuel or any other supplies may be transferred on crew launches. 

Habitation/Life Support

• Habitation:
  • Any crewed mission exceeding 10 days will require extra habitation space for the crew to work and maintain their senses. This means short trips like launches to LKO, trips between Duna's orbit and surface and brief excursions on Duna's surface do not require any extra space. However, trips between Kerbin and Duna and long-term stays on Duna's surface will require extra habitation space for each crew member. 
  • Crewed mining, rescue/contingency missions in Kerbin/Duna/Sol orbit also need habitation space if their missions exceed 10 days.
  • Habitation space is modeled by providing one extra kerbal seat for each kerbal. For example, a long term mission with a crew of four will require a vessel with seats for eight Kerbals. 
• Life Support:
  • Any mission exceeding 10 days will also require life support supplies.
  • Life support supplies can be modeled with stock parts by using the Ore resource. If life support is modeled in this way, supplies (Ore) will need to be included in the SLV launches. None of the Ore that is designated as life support can be utilized for ISRU production and any Ore harvested for ISRU cannot be used as life support. Ore (life support mass) should be jettisoned as it is "consumed".
  • Life support mass for each kerbal is calculated as: 0.04 Ore / day / kerbal. This means for a typical transfer from Kerbin to Duna with four crew will require 45 units of Ore as life support for the journey. 
  • Life support includes electrical needs. For stock, any module that lands on Duna or Ike require three days of power to survive the night if using solar power. This is modeled in stock by having a minimum of 2400 EC units on board or using fuel cell/PK-NUK generators with minimum output of 2.2 EC/minute. 
  • EVA limitation: The EVA suit has a maximum of one Kerbal day (6 hours) of life support. A Kerbal exceeding that is counted as a fatality. 
  • Alternately, any mainstream life support mod can be used to manage life support/EVA limits and electrical needs. For reference, the mass value for Ore equivalence and EC needs are based on "TAC Life Support" values.
  • Mods that render Kerbals "inert" (i.e. "DeepFreeze) as an alternative way to move crew around effectively turn Kerbals into cargo:
    • Crew in this state do not accumulate "Mission Value" points.
    • Crew in this state do not count towards requirements for the "Interplanetary expertise" achievement.
    • Freezer pods (parts that store the Kerbals) do not count towards any Achievement or as Habitation space.

Mission end rules

• All SLV missions that are launched before Year 10 Day 1 count towards achievement points. As long as the SLV/payload is launched before Year 10, Day 1, it is part of the 'implement' step of the primary goal, but that mission must be successful in order to earn the achievement. (Note, there is a handy Duna transfer window on Year 10, Day 20).
• All Kerbals on the surface of Duna on Year 10, Day 1 must be returned to Kerbin (or be returnable) safely in order to earn their Mission Value points. ('Over-stressed crew' 4 year rule applies)
  • You may "play it out" so that all kerbals are safely recovered, or demonstrate that they can be returned safely, but either way no kerbal may be stranded.
• Document your 'mission architecture' in a post describing the launch schedule beyond Year 10, Day 1 which will keep the outpost active.

Other rules

• Any nuclear/NERVA engine that is launched cannot enter either Kerbin's or Duna's atmosphere at any time once it has been activated. This means that any vessel with a nuclear engine that has been activated cannot aerobrake or land/disposed of at either Duna or Kerbin. Nuclear propulsion modules are required to use propulsive or gravity assist captures at Duna and Kerbin. (Kerbals are already green enough.)
• The continuously Kerballed outpost requires a minimum of two kerbals on Duna at all times after the initial landing of four Kerbals. If a Kerbal is left at the outpost alone (for any reason) for more than 10 days, they suffer 'Over-stressed crew' penalty.
  • A Kerbal may be left alone at the Outpost without suffering from "Over-stressed crew" penalty, as long as there is another Kerbal within driving distance.
  • This rule can be ignored once "Contingency Plans" is achieved, permitting the outpost to be remain 'crewed' by one Kerbal.
• The outpost may be comprised of one or more modules and may be located anywhere on Duna's surface. Not all modules need to be occupied, but there must always be at least one kerbal on Duna after the initial landing.
• ISRU can be used on Minmus, Duna or Ike or with asteroids. All ISRU missions must be part of the SLV launch schedule.
• Any balanced mod is acceptable. Please list all part/gameplay mods used.
• Game difficulty settings: 'Enable Comm Network' ON, 'Re-entry heating' 100%. Advanced settings: 'Part pressure limits' ON, 'Part g-force limits' ON, 'Kerbal g-force limits' ON.
• External Command Seats do not count towards habitation space and cannot be used for landing or launching on Duna/Ike or for interplanetary transfers. Rescue/contingency missions may ignore this rule, but any crew utilizing a command seat to land on or launch from Duna/Ike will void their score for Mission Value. 
• Over-stressed crew penalty: Crew member resigned from KSC due to stress. Any crew receiving this will suffer a 50% Mission Value penalty.
• If you look carefully on the EVA suit label, it has the warning "Must be not be used for atmospheric flight!". If a Kerbal is subjected to atmospheric flight (excluding EVA thrusters, jumps, etc.), they suffer 'Over-stressed crew' penalty. Vacuum-only use is fine.
• Any kerbal fatality for any reason will void that kerbal's Mission Value score.
• Extraplanetary Launchpad and other extra-Kerbin / orbital construction mods are prohibited. All parts and spacecraft must be launched from Kerbin. Stock alternate launch sites are permitted.
• "Basic rover": A rover that utilizes external command seat(s).
• "Pressurized rover": A rover that uses crewed module parts for crew quarters. 
• "Contingency Plans": Complete achievements "Backup plan", "Duna Space Station", "Duna Space Bus", and "Positive uplink". Note that the spacecraft for each achievement must be unique, or for modular designs must remain viable, at all times.

Primary Scoring

Mission Value:

• Based on how many Kerbal-days spent on Duna before Year 10 Day 1 (eg. two kerbals on Duna for 100 days equals 200 kerbal days on Duna).
• Calculated as: ("Kerbal days on Duna before Year 5 Day 1"  * 2 ) + "Kerbal Days on Duna from Year 5 Day 1 until Year 10 Day 1".
• Four-year rule: Crew members need to be recovered on Kerbin within 4 years of being launched or receive the 'Over-stressed crew' penalty.
  • This rule can be ignored once "Contingency Plans" is achieved.

Mission Efficiency:

• Based on how much Mission Value can be earned per launch.
• Calculated as: Mission Value / total NMP value of all launches.
  • Note, this is not the accumulated payload mass of all launches but simply the NMP of the SLV * number of launches before Year 10 Day 1.

Achievement Scoring

• Note that the spacecraft for each achievement must be unique, or for modular designs must remain viable, at all times.

Crew safety (add all that apply):

• Interplanetary expertise: All crewed interplanetary missions have at least two crew on board. (+1)
• Backup plan: Duna outpost has a backup ascent system to return all kerbals to Duna orbit separate from the primary Duna ascent module. (+2)
• Emergency Evac: if the 'Backup plan' ascent system is utilized with any kerbal on board. (+3)  *Note any kerbal(s) on board during the Emergency Evac will suffer the 'Over-stressed crew penalty'.

Mission robustness (add all that apply):

• Duna Space Station: Place a space station in orbit around Duna. The space station must have room for minimum of 3 kerbals (Habitation rule applies). (+1)
• Duna space bus: Deliver a fully reusable shuttle service to Duna that can ferry at least four crew between Duna's surface and Ike's surface (refueling permitted). (+2) *Provided missions do not exceed 10 days, 'Habitation space' rule does not apply. 
• Deep space transit: Implement a fully reusable crew transfer vehicle that can complete a Kerbin <-> Duna round trip without refueling (either direction). Must be capable of carrying a minimum of 4 crew. (+3)

Science value (add all that apply):

• Deep space laboratory: Duna outpost must include at least one Science Lab module. If 'Duna Space Station' is scored, it must also include a Science Lab module. (+1)
• Early mission prestige: Safely return at least two kerbals to Kerbin's surface from a Duna mission before Year 5 Day 1. At least one of the crew members must have walked on either Ike or Duna and return a surface sample with them. (+2)
• Biome diversity: Return surface samples from at least five of Duna's biomes. (+3) *This can be done all at once or separate. If scored, "Early Mission Prestige" sample does not counts toward the five.

Advanced mission objectives (add all that apply):

• Kerbin space station: Using SLV launch(es), place a space station in orbit around Kerbin. The station must support at least 4 kerbals and may be used as a staging platform for crew to and from Duna, although not required. (+1)
• Positive uplink: Place a minimum of three relay satellites in orbit around Duna and one around Ike. One of the Duna satellites must be in polar orbit. This also requires Advanced game setting 'Require Signal for Control' ON. (+2)
• Advanced deep space transit: If 'Deep space transit' is scored, it must support a minimum of 5 kerbals and refuel only in Duna SOI (travels from Duna -> Kerbin -> Duna without refueling) (+3)

Surface Mobility (add all that apply):

• At least 50% of the Duna crew have access to a seat in a Basic Rover during their outpost surface mission. (+1)
• Every crew member has access to a Pressurized Rover seat. (+2)
• The outpost is land-mobile/Pressurized Rover (Habitation rule applies). (+3)

Negative Publicity (add all that apply):

• "Can we do this?" Less than four crew land on Duna before Year 5 Day 1. (-1)
• "We will never forget them.." For every kerbal fatality for any reason (-1) each to max of (-5)
• "Perhaps we should make cookware instead" More than 5 kerbals are lost (deduct ALL but 1 Achievement point)

Outpost Success Rating

You have taken on a mammoth undertaking and have earned your retirement on the Duna outpost! Adding all Achievement points:

• 29-30: The outpost delighted the Federation with your exceptional achievement. Your retirement will be luxurious!
• 26-28: The outpost succeeded...extremely well. You can now retire in elegant estates!
• 24-27: The outpost succeeded. The Federation is pleased by your efforts. You will live comfortably!
• 19-23: The outpost was a success. You have met the minimum standards set by the Federation, but your life will not be easy!
• 14-18: The outpost survived...barely. You will be living in tents. Few supply ships will come your way!
• 8-13: The outpost failed...The Federation will no longer send supply ships. You are on your own!
• 1-7: The outpost failed...dismally. The Federation debtors' prison is your new home!

 

"You need to live in a dome initially, but over time you could kerraform Duna
... So it's a fixer-upper of a planet."

- Elon Kerman

 

Helpful info and links:

• Thanks to @Mad Rocket Scientist for this planning spreadsheet. Plug in your SLV's NPM and watch the magic! 
• Thanks to @michal.don for developing these great timelines (.PDF) which present easy to read launch window and transit information.
• The Alex Moon Launch Window Planner which uses an advanced model of the solar system to produce pork-chop plots. (Mmmm.. pork chops).
• There are 4 Hohmann transfer windows before Year 10 Day 1.

Some notes on this challenge..

• This is inspired by and is largely based on this challenge, now long retired.
• Similar success can be achieved by using larger or smaller NPM lifter designs. It's all about mission execution..
• In order to earn maximum Achievement points, sacrifices to Mission Value will be made. Overall leaderboard ranking based on: Achievement score * Mission Efficiency or something similar (may include a balance modifier).
• "But my SLV is 100% reusable with rapid turn around." It still takes time to build the payload and install it. 
• A reusable SLV with NMP of 65t will have 9 launches.  A reusable SLV with NMP of 30t will have 21 launches.
• There are benefits to using a life support mod over simulating with Ore. For example, they include build aids in the VAB/SPH for determining LS needs. Many also include recyclers, purifiers and greenhouses. If used carefully, these may provide an edge in Mission Value.

 

Mission Report Threads:

• @michal.don : My take on the "Duna Outpost Mission Architecture" challenge
• @Kerbolitto : Duna Outpost Mission Architecture, Kerbolitto's stuff
• @dire : DOMA Arigato, Duna!

 

Completed Entries:

Here lists the esteemed, brave and dedicated adventurers who have brought Elon Kerman's dreams to reality...

 

@jinnantonix

• Mission Value: 157380
• NPM: 31 tons (21 launches) 
• Efficiency: 157380 / (31*21) = 249.8
• Achievements: 29
• Mission Plan:  https://imgur.com/a/AjdNjto
• Video  Video  Video  Video  Video

Using stock parts plus TAC Life Support, this mission highlights high capacity crew modules with awesome aesthetics. Some of the scenes from the videos and images make my computer's fan kick in just thinking about the part-counts! This appears to be a pretty high bar for the first completed entry and was obviously a big effort not only in playing but designing and even producing videos, which I highly recommend checking out.  

 

@jinnantonix

• Mission Value: 153,574
• NPM: 31 tons (21 launches) 
• Efficiency: 153,574 / (31*21) = 235.9
• Achievements: 25
• Videos: Standard Launch Vehicle, Transit 1, Transit 2, Transit 3, Transit 4, Transit 5

This very well planned and beautifully executed mission is a work of true "architecture", by taking advantage of the terrain and a polar landing site to maximize life support efficiency. Elon... are you watching?

 

Death Engineering

• Mission Value: 62464
• NPM: 40 tons (16 launches) 
• Efficiency: 62464 / (40*16) = 97.6
• Achievements: 26
• Images  Images  Images  Images  Images 

TAC-LS entry using some Near Future modules for outpost parts and all-nuclear interplanetary transfer mechanics.

Edited December 5, 2020 by Death Engineering
completed entries list

[Speeding Mullet]

I think I speak for all who completed this challenge between 2013 and 2015 when I say that I am extremely glad to see it refreshed.  This post most definitely marks my intent to re-enter the world of KSP!  For all who are reading this and want a challenge that will test you as much as any other out there and give KSP some game-play definition, I would highly recommend taking part - This is a true heritage challenge!

First step for me is to mod up and do a LOT of thinking.  Advice to anyone considering an entry to this is to do a little spread-sheeting.  Feel free to check out my previous entry or any of @Death Engineering's or other peoples detailed entries.  The old OP is a wealth of good information and guidance that could be relevant to this challenge. 

Undecided as to whether I am going to simulate life support or use a mod but the basics of what I would like to achieve are:

1) Enjoy myself.  I'm not going for any particular score, just immersion as much as it is possible.
2) Develop an SLV and mission test by launching and assembling an LKO station in modules for staging crew on outbound and return legs.
3) Develop a space-plane to phase out the shuttle and act as a reliable and cheap crew transport to and from LKO.
4) Develop IPT and associated refuel module, DAV, Hole-shot missions, and all other associated space and ground exploration packages.
5) Use the architecture and ongoing mission to support an Elcano of Duna 

From there (assuming I make it) I would only make one suggestion for this thread, which for me was lacking in the last one:  At day 800 or 1000 or somewhere after you first crew are likely to make it home I'd love to see the Kerbal Federation finish development of a second SLV which could be used to support Laythe Outpost Mission Architecture, either as a bolt on to this challenge, or separate and associated thread

Great work bringing this one back from the boondocks!!

Edit - I see you've also made a couple of changes like the days in that the first rocket is available for launch etc.

SM

Edited July 9, 2018 by Speeding Mullet

[Kerbolitto]

This is a very interresting challenge, mission architecture is by far the most complete thing to design as there's so many various requirements. (Constellation thread)

[Death Engineering]

8 hours ago, Speeding Mullet said:

Edit - I see you've also made a couple of changes like the days in that the first rocket is available for launch etc.

SM

Well, the changes are mostly because the original was based on a 24h day (it's that old). The current values are based on the 6hr day. The only exception to the (x4) guideline I used was the limit for Habitation; I left that as 10 days, so it is reduced by 75% from the original.

Using a LS mod just makes it much easier, IMHO. The only harder part is how to resupply a surface base. The KAS mod is one way, but so much more than what is needed for this application. If the 'target' is stable enough, the Claw works okay, too.

Updates:

• Add rule for EVA suit limitation. A Kerbal cannot be on EVA for more than 6hr or counted as a fatality.
• Bumped up the dates a bit (Early: Year 5 Day 1, Sustained Year 10 Day 1).
• Tweaked 'Biome diversity' achievement.

 

[Kerbolitto]

One question, you can launch the first vessel after 40 days no matter what the payload is ?

[Speeding Mullet]

50 minutes ago, Death Engineering said:

Well, the changes are mostly because the original was based on a 24h day (it's that old)

Oh wow, that's so long ago I forgot it was a thing!  With life support I've always wanted to try out Kerbalism.  It models radiation, Van Allen belts, magnetosphere's, solar weather including coronal mass ejections as well as all the biological, psychological, and general environmental needs of the crew.  You have to be careful about where you position yourself in space, be aware of temperature fluctuations and loads more.  Looks to be pretty challenging compared to taking ore on the trip and allowing for the extra Delta V, but then I've never used a life support mod before!  We will see if I go down that road.

I've got so much experience building and connecting large structures on Duna now that I'm sure I will figure out the re-supply thing again .  So much of this feels like playing for the first time again though.  I mind blanked on quick save and load yesterday!

Loving the objectives and achievements by the way.

@Kerbolitto not to step on Death's toes, but to answer your question - You can launch the first rocket after 40 days with any payload you choose within the confines of your Standard Launch Vehicle's (SLV) nominal payload mass (NPM).  Basically the largest weight your SLV can loft determines your NPM, but also how often you can launch.  Bearing in mind that once designed your SLV is fixed and must be used for all launches, I would think about your mission cycle before deciding on what NPM your SLV will have.  Or you could just wing it, it'll be heaps fun either way .

SM

[Kerbolitto]

2 minutes ago, Speeding Mullet said:

@Kerbolitto not to step on Death's toes, but to answer your question - You can launch the first rocket after 40 days with any payload you choose within the confines of your Standard Launch Vehicle's (SLV) nominal payload mass (NPM).  Basically the largest weight your SLV can loft determines your NPM, but also how often you can launch.  Bearing in mind that once designed your SLV is fixed and must be used for all launches, I would think about your mission cycle before deciding on what NPM your SLV will have.  Or you could just wing it, it'll be heaps fun either way .

SM

Of course this is in regard of the NPM and rocket's rotation that I'm planning to use, but this was to be sure that the clock starts ticking at +40days.

I'm currently reviewing my Constellation's timeline to see what kind of NPM would allow for the best cycle !

This is for sure a very interresting challenge.

[qzgy]

I have to do this. I think I'm going to go with TAC LS for the whole life support thing because I suspect it would probably be easier than that whole ore dumping thing. And I have some experience with it.

I'm also super tempted to just make a mega launcher to do ALLLL the things in one or two shots. Assuming I take advantage of all the Hohmann transfer windows that means I have to stick everything within 150 or so tons..... which I think is how I'll do that. Mostly because there's no reason not to do in orbit/transit rejiggering and I'm not sure how much advantage I'd get from smaller LVs.......

actually need to go and do some calculations (which I've never actually had to do for ksp..... O_o)

 

EDIT: huh...... (info spoilered for those wanting to do maths themselves... and to not ruin things for others... DONT LOOK IF YOU DONT WANNA KNOW!!! )

Spoiler

You sure?

Spoiler

Ok then. Last chance

Spoiler

I don't think there's really any advantage or disadvantage in small reusable LV's up to 51 tonnes, at which point might as well go screw it, 156 ton launcher it is since after about 51 tons, you're only losing payload mass because you can't launch vehicles quick enough within the transfer window period. Granted, you aren't accounting for residual mass and the possibility of having residual from the last period, but even accounting for that, it doesn't matter that much (you would lose about 10 tonnes at most by my estimates). Since the only mass that actually matters in the end is the mass transferable to Duna, I think I'm going the super heavy shuttle route.

Also reusable is almost a must do at this point since you maximize the total tonnage. A Non-reusbale limits the total possible mass (by my estimates) to about 430 tonnes, significantly less.

Had we been doing this in RSS/RO or some other scaled up system where it isn't trivial to chuck 156 tonnes into orbit, there might have been a reason not to. But since it seems fun, and its probably not that hard of a challenge to do so, I think I will.

 

 

 

 

edit deux - I also just realize such a long mission gap will make station keeping harder though as more mass would have to be dedicated to LS... but it would be the same anyways so.... probably doesn't matter. and also that whole over-stressed thing.....

edit the third - derp didn't read it carefully enough.....

 

Do wonder though - Is On duna like actual boots on duna or just in duna SOI?

Edited July 10, 2018 by qzgy

[Death Engineering]

15 hours ago, Kerbolitto said:

One question, you can launch the first vessel after 40 days no matter what the payload is ?

Thanks @Speeding Mullet for addressing this. Couldn't have said it better myself. 

@Kerbolitto saw your Constellation design and even wondering if mine would work for this challenge too, but yours looks more efficient mass-wise. Good luck! 

@qzgy Welcome to the challenge! Mission Value points are only boots on the ground days. I admit to playing with Mission Value orbital points and Ike points too, but decided against it ultimately. You have made a good point with your post and SLV/NMP variables. Having done the original challenge with both a low mass and a high mass SLV I can say the low mass does give more variation options and contingency opportunities but is harder to pull off (lots of orbital assembly), while the high mass requires very careful planning but possibly easier execution.

[Kerbolitto]

2 hours ago, Death Engineering said:

 

@Kerbolitto saw your Constellation design and even wondering if mine would work for this challenge too, but yours looks more efficient mass-wise. Good luck!

Well it is funny that you posted this challenge the day I've finished Duna's Constellation mission !

Our land bases might be balanced for this challenge but landers inside huge fairings are too heavy.. I did not saw your Duna attempt on the Constellation program loved your video on Munar's mission, (and Toots <3 !)

[qzgy]

@Death Engineering - Thanks for the clarification.

I think actually orbital and Ike points could be neat. For orbital, something like 1/3rd or 1/2 the kerbal-days in orbit. I imagine that it could be used for like orbital observation or more microgravity experiments or something of that nature. Not quite as much as an actual person on Duna, but having some value (after all, space agencies do have mars observational craft for some reason right?) Ike, I'm not sure how to factor in. Might be best to pretend Ike is not worth it..... Or maybe have a 0.7 multiplier? Something like that could work though its hard to say how it would all balance in.

As for the SLV - Yeah I think you are correct in saying that more contingencies are possible with the smaller launch vehicles (you can't lose literally everything if your rocket blows up....) and allows for changing things more often, but the orbital assembly is what turns me off mostly. Not that I can't do it, its more like I dont really want to do it. Both though are probably equally hard to plan just in terms of mass budgeting (some of which might have to go to docking ports and stuff if you do go for a smaller SLV)

Already thinking out how I'm going to do it..... which is made trickier by all the different requirements and also LS....

[Death Engineering]

27 minutes ago, Kerbolitto said:

Well it is funny that you posted this challenge the day I've finished Duna's Constellation mission !

Hehe yeah I'm just wrapping up my Constellation Dres mission and the Extended Duna mission is well underway. Should wrap up that challenge this week. Thanks for checking out the Mun video.. was more of a pain to edit than I expected or I'd do it more.

[Death Engineering]

1 hour ago, qzgy said:

I think actually orbital and Ike points could be neat. For orbital, something like 1/3rd or 1/2 the kerbal-days in orbit. I imagine that it could be used for like orbital observation or more microgravity experiments or something of that nature. 

The value I was playing with was closer to 0.25 or even 0.1 multiplier for Duna orbit, but it's just too easy to aerobrake a huge bus load of Kerbs into orbit, and I'm trying to avoid exploits (eg "any crew utilizing a command seat to land on or launch from Duna/Ike will void their score for Mission Value").

Also, trying to stay true to the original challenge which only scored for Duna surface time.

[Kerbolitto]

By the way, achievements has to be fullfilled when year 10 starts right ? No need to rush as many as possible on the first launch ?

I'm getting trouble to make the most out of the very first transfer window xD

Another question, command seats are forbidden for suborbital exploration too ?

 

edit : sorry if this may seem obvious but I'd like to make sure that my design will be as efficient as possible.

Edited July 10, 2018 by Kerbolitto

[qzgy]

27 minutes ago, Death Engineering said:

The value I was playing with was closer to 0.25 or even 0.1 multiplier for Duna orbit, but it's just too easy to aerobrake a huge bus load of Kerbs into orbit, and I'm trying to avoid exploits (eg "any crew utilizing a command seat to land on or launch from Duna/Ike will void their score for Mission Value").

Also, trying to stay true to the original challenge which only scored for Duna surface time.

Oh ok that makes sense. Yeah I could see that being exploited quickly. Although on the other hand might also not fufill a large number of achievement points.

You could in theory for orbital do a kerbal days (up to 5 kerbals) or something like that. IDK.

I can see the staying true to the original part though so maybe best to just let this rest.

[Death Engineering]

Small rule updates:

• Permitted ISRU now includes Minmus.
• Crew who have not returned to Kerbin within the four year limit will not suffer 'Over-stressed crew' penalty once "Backup plan", "Duna Space Station", "Duna Space Bus", and "Positive uplink" is achieved.

 

[qzgy]

Just now, Death Engineering said:

Small rule updates:

• Permitted ISRU now includes Minmus.
• Crew who have not returned to Kerbin within the four year limit will not suffer 'Over-stressed crew' penalty once "Backup plan", "Duna Space Station", "Duna Space Bus", and "Positive uplink" is achieved.

 

ooooh.... that overstressed rule change changes things.....

I wonder though if the DAV, evac (assuming there are two), and shuttle can all be the same thing. My logic says yes.....

Also this is a really minor niggle - In the last section "There a benefits to.... (LS mods and what not)". Is that meant to be "There are benefits ..."?

[Death Engineering]

4 minutes ago, qzgy said:

ooooh.... that overstressed rule change changes things.

Good, I hope.

6 minutes ago, qzgy said:

I wonder though if the DAV, evac (assuming there are two), and shuttle can all be the same thing. My logic says yes.....

They can, yes.

7 minutes ago, qzgy said:

Also this is a really minor niggle - 

Fixt thanks.

[Kerbolitto]

also, some typo in the first chapter  :

 

fourth year of the campaign (Year 5, Day 1)

9th year of the campaign (Year 10, Day 1)

provide new lifters beyond the end of Year 9.

[Death Engineering]

5 hours ago, Kerbolitto said:

also, some typo in the first chapter  :

 

fourth year of the campaign (Year 5, Day 1)

9th year of the campaign (Year 10, Day 1)

provide new lifters beyond the end of Year 9.

It's semantically correct, just worded poorly. Updated..   Thanks!

[michal.don]

This looks really interesting - when I have a bit of time to play, I'll try to figure out a way to do this.... Thanks!

[qzgy]

ack. The main issue  I'm having is that TAC LS doesn't actually have a greenhouse. It has recyclers and stuff for everything else but no greenhouse or other parts for super long duration missions. Coupled with my general inexperience with mods, that means.... issues.

Does anyone know of a decent mod that adds greenhouses to TACLS?

[Kerbolitto]

Almost ready for first launch .. That's incredible what you can do with less than 50t. !

[Speeding Mullet]

6 hours ago, qzgy said:

ack. The main issue  I'm having is that TAC LS doesn't actually have a greenhouse. It has recyclers and stuff for everything else but no greenhouse or other parts for super long duration missions. Coupled with my general inexperience with mods, that means.... issues.

Does anyone know of a decent mod that adds greenhouses to TACLS?

I'm using Kerbal Planetary Base Systems, as stock base building (in the fashion I like to build) is all but broken due to autostruts on landing legs.

It has a greenhouse (among lots of other modules), supports TAC and 7 other life support mods including kerbalism which I intend to use.  It also gets around the autostrut landing leg / decoupled tractor to move modules issue by having it's own retractable wheel set that doesn't make your base look like wheel/leg spaghetti.

SM

Edited July 11, 2018 by Speeding Mullet

[Death Engineering]

7 hours ago, qzgy said:

ack. The main issue  I'm having is that TAC LS doesn't actually have a greenhouse. It has recyclers and stuff for everything else but no greenhouse or other parts for super long duration missions. Coupled with my general inexperience with mods, that means.... issues.

Does anyone know of a decent mod that adds greenhouses to TACLS?

I'm having a fresh look at Stockalike Station Parts Redux, which is currently reporting good for KSP 1.4.2. In my 1.4.4 build it seems to be working with only that mod installed (of course with the litany of version conflict messages on startup). Going to drop TAC LS into it and test it out...

It includes not only TAC LS friendly greenhouses but a huge array of crew parts.