The Landing Legs & Gears Is Killing Me!

[I_Killed_Jeb]

Got back into KSP after a long hiatus shortly after 1.0. I am really relishing getting back into it all, the shenanigans, the wonder, all of it.

 

But it all comes crashing to a halt because my landers behave like damn perpetual machine slinkies and literally shake themselves apart or flip upside down after being left alone. Now I see people are landing on fins(!!) like we're back to pre-0.18 days!! This is driving me NUTS! I get that it's a Unity thing but please dear heavens what is a poor guy to do about this

[Jeb federation]

I use I-beams instead, more impact tolerance, less likely to snap off. I use landing legs for glitch bombs.

[steve_v]

3 hours ago, I_Killed_Jeb said:

But it all comes crashing to a halt because my landers behave like damn perpetual machine slinkies and literally shake themselves apart or flip upside down after being left alone.

Welcome to post-1.1 KSP. Landing legs and gear have been borked in a variety of ways ever since the U5 "upgrade".
Since Squad seems to have no interest in fixing them properly, the only options I am aware of are to avoid using them entirely or spend considerable time tweaking the spring and damper settings... Which will trade slinky or pogo-stick for mound of jell-o if you are lucky.

[Sharpy]

@steve_vSquad has interest in fixing them properly; they've been trying since the "upgrade". Thing is this is Unity/PhysX problem and all Squad really can do is tweaking the parameters. It's still vastly better than it was in 2.1/2.2 but still, I use landing legs for landing, not for staying in place. The moment the craft comes to a stop, legs go up. Hacks of using cargo bays for landing legs are still fully valid.

 

 

 

[cfds]

58 minutes ago, Sharpy said:

Squad has interest in fixing them properly; they've been trying since the "upgrade". Thing is this is Unity/PhysX problem and all Squad really can do is tweaking the parameters.

If they had any interest in fixing them they would have done so, by looking for, or creating, another system for landing legs. But throwing the hands in the air and blaming Unity does not cost anything and satisfies most players, so why put any effort in it?

Edited September 28, 2018 by cfds

[Dafni]

 There was a mod that would ease in the physics upon reload. Dont know if it is updated, or even the name of it. Maybe somebody knows?

Doesent solve all the issues I guess, just the ones that happen when physics gets loaded and stuff clips into the ground etc.

What was the name of that mod again?

[linuxgurugamer]

47 minutes ago, Dafni said:

 There was a mod that would ease in the physics upon reload. Dont know if it is updated, or even the name of it. Maybe somebody knows?

Doesent solve all the issues I guess, just the ones that happen when physics gets loaded and stuff clips into the ground etc.

What was the name of that mod again?

World stabilizer

[klgraham1013]

5 hours ago, Sharpy said:

@steve_vSquad has interest in fixing them properly; they've been trying since the "upgrade". Thing is this is Unity/PhysX problem and all Squad really can do is tweaking the parameters. It's still vastly better than it was in 2.1/2.2 but still, I use landing legs for landing, not for staying in place. The moment the craft comes to a stop, legs go up. Hacks of using cargo bays for landing legs are still fully valid.

 

 

 

...or they could write their own code.

...but #BlameUnity has worked as an excuse so far.

[Shadowmage]

4 hours ago, cfds said:

by looking for, or creating, another system for landing legs.

Having done exactly this (see KSPWheel in signature)...

11 minutes ago, klgraham1013 said:

but #BlameUnity has worked as an excuse so far.

Sadly some of ^^^ is still necessary.

Unity simply does not expose low-level enough access to the PhysX API in order to sufficiently 'fix' the problems in KSPWheel.  Squad is facing the same thing -- even if they did write their own custom wheel physics system, they would still be held hostage by and limited to what Unity will allow you to access.  Notably there is no way for C# code to access the PhysX sub-step integrations, which would be mandatory for any sufficiently well developed wheel physics simulation.

 

As an aside -- you could try using KSPWheel with the stock-part-conversion patch.  The patch itself is WIP and hasn't been updated in many moons, but it still works better than the stock/Unity wheel system in most cases/for most parts -- https://github.com/shadowmage45/KerbalFoundries2/tree/master/KerbalFoundries-Patches/Stock

(requires installing at least KSPWheel, and then the patch set; use of KerbalFoundries is optional for the stock patches)

[klgraham1013]

1 hour ago, Shadowmage said:

Snip

A much better explanation than typically given.

[Aeroboi]

Whenever I need long landing legs I tend to use anything structural that looks nice and make a tintin construction in 3 or 4 way symmetry that extends far enough down and then attach the legs to it.

I do agree we need bigger landing legs/gear though. We now have 5m parts. And I think @SQUAD knows very well most community players like to strap supporting legs to enormous vessels. Tintin solutions also don't look right on just every vessel. That said, combining structural parts to extend the legs can be done in a large variety of ways. So I also advice anyone blaming the lack of legs and gears to try and be creative and see what you can make with the parts available because I'm sure there is more to create then you've currently thought of.

[AngrybobH]

I haven't used the stock landing legs since I found the MKS mod. The landing legs in there are awesome but more like using structural parts than landing legs but has an action group you can tie to the gear button. The best feature though is the ground tether(I think KIS needs to be installed for this to work). Toggling the ground tether on locks your vessel to its spot so even when you reload your ship it doesn't fly away. It even works on hills.

11 hours ago, Jeb federation said:

I use landing legs for glitch bombs

I think this is the intended purpose of stock legs.

[Tonka Crash]

The Ground Tether is in USI-Tools which usually gets installed as a dependency with any of the other USI mods

[steve_v]

19 hours ago, Sharpy said:

all Squad really can do is tweaking the parameters

To wit: Not fixing the root cause.
The  root cause, as with all the other unfixed problems in this game, is the game engine.
If Unity won't sort it out, you either code around it or you buy a source-code licence and fix the existing systems.

KSPWheel is much better than Squads implementation, or it was the last time I tried it with the stock patch. Even if it's not perfect, it's yet another example of free community code being seriously superior to what Squad has developed.
So why doesn't Squad do what Shadowmage & co. did to provide the best possible user experience within the limitations of Unity?
Is it the same reason they haven't taken a cue from AFBW and fixed the input stack? Perhaps it's because it's easier and cheaper to blame Unity?

Edited September 29, 2018 by steve_v

[klgraham1013]

5 hours ago, steve_v said:

Perhaps it's because it's easier and cheaper to blame Unity?

Congratulations.  You've solved the puzzle.

[Rocket In My Pocket]

Am I the only one who never has any of these issues with stock legs?

All my bases are fine, no weird bouncing, no random explosions. Then again I tend to keep them fairly small and compact, so maybe that's the difference?

I even have a miner that tipped over onto it's side awhile back and is resting on two extendable solar panels, and two of it's landing legs and even that doesn't bounce or break when loaded.

Edited September 29, 2018 by Rocket In My Pocket

[AVaughan]

1 hour ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

Am I the only one who never has any of these issues with stock legs?

Threads like this attract "me too" type comments/complaints from people who do have issues.

I don't recall ever having serious problems with landers and/or legs either.  A few minor annoyances, eg landers sliding down slopes, and landing legs that didn't have enough damping to prevent rebound when landing on Minmus at 2m/s , but no serious problems.  

[I_Killed_Jeb]

7 hours ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

Am I the only one who never has any of these issues with stock legs?

All my bases are fine, no weird bouncing, no random explosions. Then again I tend to keep them fairly small and compact, so maybe that's the difference?

I even have a miner that tipped over onto it's side awhile back and is resting on two extendable solar panels, and two of it's landing legs and even that doesn't bounce or break when loaded.

I'm glad you're happy but I'm not exactly making this stuff up.

The lander was most certainly upright when it landed.

Edited September 29, 2018 by I_Killed_Jeb

[Rocket In My Pocket]

39 minutes ago, I_Killed_Jeb said:

I'm glad you're happy but I'm not exactly making this stuff up.

The lander was most certainly upright when it landed.

I'm sure you're not, just saying it seems to be affecting some worse than others. Perhaps if we could figure out why we could narrow down the cause and help find a solution.

(On a side note, you could use the debug menu to lower gravity and set your lander upright again in the mean time.)

[klgraham1013]

4 minutes ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

I'm sure you're not, just saying it seems to be affecting some worse than others. Perhaps if we could figure out why we could narrow down the cause and help find a solution.

I believe it's mainly due to craft loading on uneven terrain.  When loading, legs are fully extended.  If those legs are "beneath" the surface, the craft is pushed above the surface.  Depending on the severity, this can launch craft into the air.  World Stabilizer is a decent work around by loading craft slightly above the surface and gently lowering them.

There are other problems with wheels and legs, but this is the one that affects me the most.  Anyone who watches EJ_SA has seen this many times.

[Majorjim!]

 

Just now, klgraham1013 said:

I believe it's mainly due to craft loading on uneven terrain.  When loading, legs are fully extended.  If those legs are "beneath" the surface, the craft is pushed above the surface.  Depending on the severity, this can launch craft into the air.  World Stabilizer is a decent work around by loading craft slightly above the surface and gently lowering them.

There are other problems with wheels and legs, but this is the one that affects me the most.  Anyone who watches EJ_SA has seen this many times.

That was supposed to be fixed already.. @SQUAD Maybe spend some time getting VITAL systems working before making some parts 'shiny'.. Just a thought.

[klgraham1013]

Just now, Majorjim! said:

 

That was supposed to be fixed already.. @SQUAD Maybe spend some time getting VITAL systems working before making some parts 'shiny'.. Just a thought.

It was in the patch notes, but it's bitten EJ a few times this patch as well.  Disclaimer, I've only dabbled in 1.4 because of these continuing issues.  My time is mainly in 1.3.

[OHara]

On 9/29/2018 at 2:39 PM, I_Killed_Jeb said:

The lander was most certainly upright when it landed.

I see from the parts you are using version 1.4.x, and have the problem on very level terrain.   
Versions 1.4.x tend to have continuous increasing oscillations in the landing gear or wheel suspensions, much worse than in any version since 1.0.   I think the reason some of us find the problem intolerable is the (lightweight) type of craft we tend to make.  The problem is reproducible, in that some users post example craft on the bug-reports and different users can confirm them.

If you notice the oscillation while at KSP, you can go back to assembly and (selecting 'advanced tweakables') set a weaker spring and/or stronger damper.   [In version 1.5, you can change the spring settings in-flight, but here you do need to enable 'advanced tweakables' in the settings menu]

ShadowMage's KSPWheel mod, with the configuration files for stock wheels he posted above, solves the problem for me, but your wheels on any existing craft might run or steer backwards unless you re-check in assembly.   (In the end, I went back to version 1.3.1, which is still available as an option to you from wherever you bought KSP.)

The Wold Stabilizer mod mentioned above, was meant for version 1.3.1, to avoid one specific type of jumping: upon starting physics simulation, such as when returning to the craft.

Edited November 18, 2018 by OHara
spring and damper are normal tweakables, not 'advanced'

[steve_v]

4 hours ago, OHara said:

Versions 1.4.x tend to have continuous increasing oscillations in the landing gear or wheel suspensions

This is my biggest gripe with the wheel system. Other jankiness aside, the ease with which one can accidentally build a perpetual motion machine is ludicrous, particularly when taken with the "realistic physics model" claim on the box.
If systems gain energy from nowhere your "realistic physics model" is broken, period.

 

4 hours ago, OHara said:

I think the reason some of us find the problem intolerable is the (lightweight) type of craft we tend to make.

This is quite possibly the case, though I have not tested it. However, space exploration is pretty heavy on light vehicles, if you get my drift.

[klgraham1013]

I'm a firm believer that the player shouldn't have to manual tweak gear just to make sure craft work.  Sure, for the rare occasion, but the inclusion of these options has become a defense for what I consider to be poor implementation.  These options should be for advanced users, not a necessity just to make a successful lander.

Edited September 30, 2018 by klgraham1013