[KSP >= 1.3.0] TweakScale - Under Lisias' Management - 2.4.8.8 - 2024-1117

[Crimor]

Did ya ever figure out what was the deal with Bluedogs tweakscale patch btw? Still sad I can't tweakscale the really nice looking tanks without that bug with the resetting fuel levels happening.

[Lisias]

9 hours ago, Crimor said:

Did ya ever figure out what was the deal with Bluedogs tweakscale patch btw? Still sad I can't tweakscale the really nice looking tanks without that bug with the resetting fuel levels happening.

You are talking about this? It will be tacked down on this issue,  but frankly it appears to be a problem on B9PS, so I will probably handle it on a Companion.

[Lisias]

ANNOUNCE

Release 2.4.5.2 is available for downloading, with the following changes:

• Raise the bar to KSP 1.12.2
• (Finally) adds support for Parts and Modules from KSP 1.11 and newer.
• Implements the TweakScaleExperimental Patches Program.
  • A lot of patches are not fully tested, and some Exponents will probably need revising.
  • Since both these patches as well the unavoidable revisions that will follow may unbalance current crafts in savegames, it’s advised discretion on activating the Experimental features.
• Closes Issues:
  • #186 Check and implement all Modules left behind from 1.4.0 up to 1.10.1
  • #184 Scale some unsupported parts on EXPERIMENTAL status
  • #182 Get rid of TODOs related to updating scale types.
  • #181 Support the new Parts introduced on KSP 1.12 and Update Scale Exponents to the new Modules
  • #128 Support the new Parts introduced on KSP 1.12 and Update Scale Exponents to the new Modules
  • #120 Support the new Parts introduced on KSP 1.10
  • #50 Support the new Parts introduced on KSP 1.11 and Update Scale Exponents to the new Modules

See OP for the links.

(Previous announce)

Highlights

TweakScaleExperimental support for parts and modules

From 2.4.5.2, TweakScale is starting to support, as possible, all KSP modules - and not only the most visible ones, as well parts.

In order to pursue that goal without risking your ongoing savegames (as changing Exponents will unbalance your designs, potentially ruining your crafts), some parts and modules scalings are only available on Experimental mode.

Such mode will patch almost all KSP parts and modules (but Serenity/Breaking Ground as this one will be tackled down later, see the backlog for more information), including some that I’m unsure should be scaled - not to mention Exponents that I’m pretty sure will need some rebalancing.

In order to toy with these parts and modules, you need to create a directory called TweakScaleExperimental in your GameData. The directory may be empty, it’s enough to have it on GameData so Module Manager will register it, satisfying the :NEEDS that enable such patches and Exponents.

Please only enable these patches on disposable or non valuable KSP installments. These patches are going to change for sure in the near future, and these changes will be incompatible with savagames created with the previous set of Experimental patches.

Standard mechanism to control TweakScale availability

From 2.4.5.0 and up, it’s possible to deactivate TweakScale on some (or even all) parts by patching or on the user interface without affecting living crafts on the savegame (or even already existent craft files).

A patching only feature can lock up TweakScale on the current state, making easier to create artefacts to automatically reconfigure a savegame for Challenges with specific rules. Again, without affecting existent crafts or savegames - once the craft is launched, it’s not affected by these options.

See the Documentation for details.

Parts with Variants

Variants that change Cost and/or Mass are now fully supported, but TweakScale is struggling to support Parts with Variants that changes Attachment Nodes.

I had planned to withdraw TweakScale support from such parts as I did in the past, but then I realised that most Version 2 parts from already scalable parts (as Terrier…) would had TweakScale withdrawn, and this would render some crafts and savegames corrupted.

Since most of these parts didn’t misbehave on a noticeable way, I decided to just let it go as is for while. Just a few stock parts are misbehaving into a noticeable way, and these parts are (until the moment):

• The Mastodon engine
• The Structural Tubes
  • T-12
  • T-18
  • T-25
  • T-37
  • T-50

And probably more, as Add'Ons starts to use such feature. 

The only workaround at the moment is to descale these parts before applying the variant and then scaling them again. Alternatively, just detach and reattach the misbehaving parts.

A proper fix is Work in Progress, and is expected to be released on 2.4.4.1.

Deprecating Patches

Support for all non Squad parts are on a deprecating status and will be definitively removed on TweakScale 2.5. The TweakScale Companion Program will be the source for supporting third-parties add'ons.

It’s advised to install the needed Companions as they reach Gold status.

Sanity Checks

Parts using Firespitter’s FSbuoyancy needs the latest TweakScale Companion for Firespitter, as only the Companion has the specific code that knows how to handle it.

Overrules

A overrule, as the name says, is a patch the overrules TweakScale (and anything else) in order to make things broken in a deterministic way.

A complete essay can be found here.

Hot Fixes

A Hot Fix is a hand crafted patch that fixes by brute force patching problems, forcing the original intended result for a given KSP installment. The difference from an overrule is that Hot Fixes don’t break compatibility with sane installments, so you can start new savegames and share your crafts without worries.

A complete essay can be found here.

New Scaling Behaviour

A new TWEAKSCALEBEHAVIOUR, ModuleGeneratorExtended , is available for parts using ModuleGenerator that wants to scale the INPUT_RESOURCES too. This feature wasn’t introduced directly into the ModuleGenerator’s TWEAKSCALEEXPONENTS to prevent damage on Add'Ons (and savegames) that rely on the current behaviour (scaling only the output), as suddenly the resource consumption would increase on already stablished bases and crafts.

Just add the lines as the example below (the output resources scaling is still inherited from the default patch!).

@PART[my_resource_converter]:NEEDS[TweakScale]
{
    #@TWEAKSCALEBEHAVIOR[ModuleGeneratorExtended]/MODULE[TweakScale] { }
    %MODULE[TweakScale]
    {
        type = free
    }
}

WARNINGS

The known Unholy interaction between modules (Kraken Food), rogue patches or known incompatibilities between third parties Add'On that can lead to disasters are being detected on the Sanity Checks with a proper (scaring) warning being shown. A full essay about these issues can be found here.

Unfortunately, such issues are a serious Show Stopper, potentially (and silently) ruining your savegames. This is not TweakScale fault, but yet it’s up to it to detect the problem and warn you about it. If this happens with you, call for help. A Cancelbutton is available for the brave Kerbonauts willing to fly unsafe.

TweakScale strongly recommends using S.A.V.E..

Special procedures for recovering mangled installments once the TweakScale are installed (triggering the MM cache rebuilding) are possible, but keep your savegames backed up. And DON`T SAVE your crafts once you detect the problem. Reach me on Forum for help.

TweakScale stills mangles further affected crafts and savegames with some badly (but recoverable) patched parts so when things are fixed, your crafts preserve the TweakScale settings without harm. THIS DOES NOT FIX THE PROBLEM, as this is beyond the reach of TweakScale - but it at least prevents you from losing your crafts and savegames once the problem happens and then it is later fixed. You will detect this by KSP complaining about a missing TweakScaleRogueDuplicate module (previously TweakScaleDisabled, renamed for clarity). You can safely ignore this.

Keep an eye on the Known Issues file.

— — — — —

This Release will be published using the following Schedule:

• GitHub, reaching first manual installers and users of KSP-AVC. Right now.
• CurseForge. Right now.
• SpaceDock (and CKAN users). Right now.

The reasoning is to gradually distribute the Release to easily monitor the deployment and cope with eventual mishaps.

Edited September 1, 2021 by Lisias
All Distributions Channels are up to date.

[MotorMC]

Got 5 fatal TweakScale errors and scary message that my world will come to an end if I don't seek help here.  I had just installed near future power and electrics when this came up.

Log Entries:

[LOG 03:48:05.990] [TweakScale] ERROR: **FATAL** Part reactor-0625 (MX-0 'KerboPower' Fission Generator) has a fatal problem due having duplicated properties - see issue [#34]( https://github.com/net-lisias-ksp/TweakScale/issues/34 ). at error:0
[LOG 03:48:05.990] [TweakScale] ERROR: **FATAL** Part reactor-125 (MX-1 'GARNET' Fission Reactor) has a fatal problem due having duplicated properties - see issue [#34]( https://github.com/net-lisias-ksp/TweakScale/issues/34 ). at error:0
[LOG 03:48:05.991] [TweakScale] ERROR: **FATAL** Part reactor-25-2 (MX-2L 'Excalibur' Fission Reactor) has a fatal problem due having duplicated properties - see issue [#34]( https://github.com/net-lisias-ksp/TweakScale/issues/34 ). at error:0
[LOG 03:48:05.991] [TweakScale] ERROR: **FATAL** Part reactor-25 (MX-2S 'Prometheus' Fission Reactor) has a fatal problem due having duplicated properties - see issue [#34]( https://github.com/net-lisias-ksp/TweakScale/issues/34 ). at error:0
[LOG 03:48:05.991] [TweakScale] ERROR: **FATAL** Part reactor-375 (MX-3S F.L.A.T. Fission Reactor) has a fatal problem due having duplicated properties - see issue [#34]( https://github.com/net-lisias-ksp/TweakScale/issues/34 ). at error:0

From reading the github is looks like its only a problem if I tweak these specific parts. If I install them without tweaking scale will they still be stable? Sorry if that is a mid-wit interpretation.  Those are parts I used all the time before I re-installed kerbal. 

 

Edited September 1, 2021 by MotorMC

[ColdJ]

On 8/20/2021 at 12:37 AM, Lisias said:

Variants that change Cost and/or Nass are now fully supported, but TweakScale is struggling to support Parts with Variants that changes Attachment Nodes.

I've always wanted to change the NASS of something.

 

[Lisias]

8 hours ago, MotorMC said:

Got 5 fatal TweakScale errors and scary message that my world will come to an end if I don't seek help here.  I had just installed near future power and electrics when this came up.

Ugh. Duplicated patches, it's some time since I had this thing happening around here.

The problem with these doubling patches is that the patching was done uncontrollably, and it's unfeasible to know what was te right patch after the fact and, once you start a game with a patch set, you are committed to that patch set under the penalty of having your crafts unbalanced or even ruined by the different rules. So we need to be pretty picky about this, and anything weird detected is promptly yelled at.

 

8 hours ago, MotorMC said:

From reading the github is looks like its only a problem if I tweak these specific parts. If I install them without tweaking scale will they still be stable? Sorry if that is a mid-wit interpretation.  Those are parts I used all the time before I re-installed kerbal. 

Well, yes. If you manage to remember all affected parts, by not using you are safe. But using them can be a problem, because the default (non tweaked) value of a ruleset can be a scaled value (tweaked) on another rule set - and then you may have a problem (it's not always a problem, but when it's a problem, it's a problem).

Usually I would ask you for the KSP.log, MM Patch.log and MM ConfigCache so I could detect and fix the problematic parts - usually by issuing a pull request to the maintainer of the faulty patch. In advance, I can tell you to remove the TweakScale patches from TMaster5on if you have it installed (this one I never managed to fix).

But since the parts involved are from Near Future, there's a better way out: Install TweakScale Companion for Near Future, direct link to the download here. These are better, updated, and properly curated patches for all NF add'ons.

If even by installing the Companion you still have the problem, then I really need your KSP.log, MM Patch log and MM ConfigCache so I can diagnose and fix the problem.

Cheers!

 

[Dahbakon]

Having an issue similair to MotorMC, 4 fatal erros that won't allow me to continue the game without risk of game save corruption. 
specifically

[LOG 23:58:37.712] [TweakScale] ERROR: **FATAL** Part cargoContainer (SEQ-9 Container Module) has a fatal problem due having duplicated properties - see issue [#34]( https://github.com/net-lisias-ksp/TweakScale/issues/34 ). at error:0
[LOG 23:58:37.712] [TweakScale] ERROR: **FATAL** Part smallCargoContainer (SEQ-3 Cargo Storage Unit) has a fatal problem due having duplicated properties - see issue [#34]( https://github.com/net-lisias-ksp/TweakScale/issues/34 ). at error:0

[LOG 23:58:37.748] [TweakScale] ERROR: **FATAL** Part spotLight1 (Illuminator Mk1) has a fatal problem due having duplicated properties - see issue [#34]( https://github.com/net-lisias-ksp/TweakScale/issues/34 ). at error:0
[LOG 23:58:37.748] [TweakScale] ERROR: **FATAL** Part spotLight2 (Illuminator Mk2) has a fatal problem due having duplicated properties - see issue [#34]( https://github.com/net-lisias-ksp/TweakScale/issues/34 ). at error:0

i didn't quite understand lisias advice, is there something i can do about this?

[Lisias]

 

2 hours ago, Dahbakon said:

Having an issue similair to MotorMC, 4 fatal erros that won't allow me to continue the game without risk of game save corruption.  specifically

[LOG 23:58:37.712] [TweakScale] ERROR: **FATAL** Part cargoContainer (SEQ-9 Container Module) has a fatal problem due having duplicated properties - see issue [#34]( https://github.com/net-lisias-ksp/TweakScale/issues/34 ). at error:0
[LOG 23:58:37.712] [TweakScale] ERROR: **FATAL** Part smallCargoContainer (SEQ-3 Cargo Storage Unit) has a fatal problem due having duplicated properties - see issue [#34]( https://github.com/net-lisias-ksp/TweakScale/issues/34 ). at error:0

[LOG 23:58:37.748] [TweakScale] ERROR: **FATAL** Part spotLight1 (Illuminator Mk1) has a fatal problem due having duplicated properties - see issue [#34]( https://github.com/net-lisias-ksp/TweakScale/issues/34 ). at error:0
[LOG 23:58:37.748] [TweakScale] ERROR: **FATAL** Part spotLight2 (Illuminator Mk2) has a fatal problem due having duplicated properties - see issue [#34]( https://github.com/net-lisias-ksp/TweakScale/issues/34 ). at error:0

i didn't quite understand lisias advice, is there something i can do about this?

There's a file called KSP.log on your KSP's root directory, a file called MMPatch.log (or something) on KSP_root/Logs and a file called ModuleManager.ConfigCache on KSP_root/GameData .

Please zip these files and post the zipfile on DropBox or similar service, and give the link. I will check these files and get into the problem for sure.

— — POST EDIT — — 

Humm…  Before that, completely remove TweakScale folder from your gamedata, and reinstall it (assuming that you didn't did exactly that on installing/updating). You may have a pretty old patch file lingering on that directory (I mean, really pretty old - probably older than an year) - but it's just a guess, I will only really know what's happening by inspecting that files I mentioned.

Edited September 2, 2021 by Lisias
post edit

[Dahbakon]

I did as you said and removed and redownloaded tweakscale, it turned out that was exactly the problem. i hadn't played KSP in a while and thought i was doing a clean install so it's entirely my bad. thanks for the help, sorry for wasting your time!

[Lisias]

5 hours ago, Dahbakon said:

I did as you said and removed and redownloaded tweakscale, it turned out that was exactly the problem. i hadn't played KSP in a while and thought i was doing a clean install so it's entirely my bad. thanks for the help, sorry for wasting your time!

 Not a problem! Welcome back and Scale Safe!

---- POST EDIT ----

In time, check also the TweakScale Companion Program Thread.

Another change that may bite you is that updated support for 3rd party add'ons are migrating to specialized "plugin's plugins".

If you use any add'on that have a Companion on Release or Release Candidate status, you should install that Companion to get up to date support!

Edited September 3, 2021 by Lisias
post edit

[Xeithr]

I need help

here's my log file https://mega.nz/file/5SQBXK4T#a24KgHliMzb_u3sEJXQYl2mheWFLhho0OTnSdQR8P3k

[Mr.dobsonian]

Can tweakscale change the size of breaking ground robotic parts?

[Lisias]

7 hours ago, Mr.dobsonian said:

Can tweakscale change the size of breaking ground robotic parts?

At the present state, no.

Scaling Breaking Ground parts is terribly trickier than it was by Infernal Robotics (that, by the way, implemented its own support)  apparently due some implementation choices made by Squad (some other people is also trying to do so, by the way) - and this can potentially ruin savegames for good in a pretty similar way it happens with the Docking Ports now.

And I also need some free time to focus a proper Clean Room Implementation for this (what's demand a lot of time), as the alternatives are not EULA (and Forum Rules) compliant and I don't want to get myself in hot waters.

 

12 hours ago, Xeithr said:

I need help

here's my log file https://mega.nz/file/5SQBXK4T#a24KgHliMzb_u3sEJXQYl2mheWFLhho0OTnSdQR8P3k

Hi. Let's see what's happening….

[LOG 08:10:12.572] [TweakScale] INFO: WriteDryCost Concluded : 2041 parts found ; 14 checks failed ; 0 parts with hotfixes ; 0 parts with issues overruled ; 4 Show Stoppers found; 0 Sanity Check failed; 891 unscalable parts.
[LOG 08:10:12.575] [TweakScale] "Houston, we have a Problem!" about show stoppers on patching was displayed

You have 14 checks failed (what my not be a problem, the problem is that TweakScale could not check them), but what's really biting your SAS is that 4 Show Stoppers:

[LOG 08:10:12.324] [TweakScale] ERROR: **FATAL** Part cargoContainer (SEQ-9 Container Module) has a fatal problem due having duplicated properties - see issue [#34]( https://github.com/net-lisias-ksp/TweakScale/issues/34 ). at error:0
[LOG 08:10:12.324] [TweakScale] ERROR: **FATAL** Part smallCargoContainer (SEQ-3 Cargo Storage Unit) has a fatal problem due having duplicated properties - see issue [#34]( https://github.com/net-lisias-ksp/TweakScale/issues/34 ). at error:0
[LOG 08:10:12.400] [TweakScale] ERROR: **FATAL** Part spotLight1 (Illuminator Mk1) has a fatal problem due having duplicated properties - see issue [#34]( https://github.com/net-lisias-ksp/TweakScale/issues/34 ). at error:0
[LOG 08:10:12.401] [TweakScale] ERROR: **FATAL** Part spotLight2 (Illuminator Mk2) has a fatal problem due having duplicated properties - see issue [#34]( https://github.com/net-lisias-ksp/TweakScale/issues/34 ). at error:0

What it's exactly the same problem above. Some pretty old version of TweakScale were installed before and some deprecated left-overs are lingering on your installment after installing the new release, leading to these double patching. Completely remove the TweakScale folder and reinstall it from scratch. This will solve the 4 FATALities.

About the other 14 "checks failed", I'm working on it. They are not necessarily a problem, but I will check why TweakScale is not being able to inspect these parts - just in case.

— — POST EDIT — — 

@Xeithr, I made a clean install of KSPIE, then updated TweakScale, and found anything on the logs about TweakScale remotely similar to what I found on your log. So whatever it's happening, it's related to a 3rd party add'on - and I'm currently unable to keep pursuing this due my other duties (both on RL and on KSP). But since these are not FATALities, I think you are good to go nevertheless.

On the other hand, I found something on your log (completely unrelated to TweakScale but that affected the distribution file) that, well, was my fault (somehow - didn't understood yet how it happened). So, thank you for your log - you helped me a lot on this obscure issue that I completely missed.

Cheers!

Edited September 4, 2021 by Lisias
POST EDIT

[ElonsMusk]

Minor thing I noticed last night I wanted to mention. Scale a flag up, connect it to another part, duplicate that part and the flag remains scaled but loses is snap position. The duplicated decal flag does not keep it's exact position.  Absolute snap puts it back into place. I just found this odd and figured I'd speak up. Was that clear?

[Lisias]

2 hours ago, ElonsMusk said:

Minor thing I noticed last night I wanted to mention. Scale a flag up, connect it to another part, duplicate that part and the flag remains scaled but loses is snap position. The duplicated decal flag does not keep it's exact position.  Absolute snap puts it back into place. I just found this odd and figured I'd speak up. Was that clear?

Yep. New issue : https://github.com/net-lisias-ksp/TweakScale/issues/197

(but I think this may be directly related to #131 - but perhaps not)

[Xeithr]

That fixed it, thanks

[Daniel Prates]

@Lisias

as per usual many thanks on all the love you put into TW.

1.12 did wreck TW, didn't it? The poor thing. It was doing so well before. 

Lisias I report here the issues  I WAS having before your newest version, because I want to know if this was what you intendes to address:

1. Some size changew would result wrong volume changes. Ex., 1.5 to 1.875 would result triple the fuel;

2. I would scale down some tanks and the quantities would scale down correctly, but, when I flew the rocket, the delta-v was huge! It must have been calculating as if it had the mount of fuel of the tank prior to being dowsized.

I ask if this was expected behavior under non-updated versions because it always could have been a mod soup issue. Are things like that things that were happening to everyone under 1.12?

Edited September 5, 2021 by Daniel Prates

[Lisias]

1 hour ago, Daniel Prates said:

as per usual many thanks on all the love you put into TW.

Thanks!

 

1 hour ago, Daniel Prates said:

1.12 did wreck TW, didn't it? The poor thing. It was doing so well before. 

Lisias I report here the issues  I WAS having before your newest version, because I want to know if this was what you intendes to address:

To tell you the true, KSP 1.12 did wreck the hell of itself. It is drawing itself to a corner, IMHO. But this does not means that KSP is always the culprit.  Let's crack this nut.

In time, the current latest release is essentially only a MM patch updating one. I purposely did not changed any code (not even a bug fix) on it. So whatever hit you in the 2.4.5.2 release, should be bitting you on 2.4.5.1 too - unless it's not a TweakScale issue.

What I suspect it's the case, as I tested your use cases and they appears to work for me. See below.

 

2 hours ago, Daniel Prates said:

1. Some size changew would result wrong volume changes. Ex., 1.5 to 1.875 would result triple the fuel;

This is unlikely to happen due TweakScale - or this thing works fine for every patched part, or it doesn't. Scaling from 1.25 to 1.875 is exactly the same process for upscaling 1.875 to 2.5, or downscaling 2.5 to 1.25. Or whatever. On all instances (KSP 1.12.2, 1.11.2, 1.7.3 all of them with the latest TS, and KSP 1.3.1 with the v2.3.7 - the less old release that officially is supported on it), the numbers are : Fuel from 180u to 608u, and Oxidiser from 220 to 743 .

What's compliant with the code and with the scalings. KSP (any version) plays no role on this one.

One can disagree with the scalings rules themselves, but the algorithm and the data are OK, so it will not change (it would destroy all the already published/in useTweakScale crafts and savegames). One could write their own alternate scalings rules if he/she/it wants anyway.

Spoiler

Anyway, the current ruleset for tanks use the cubic law for scaling, i.e., you take the current scale and power it to 3 to get the exponent (volume in this case):

• The Scale 1.00 give us an exponent of 1.00**3  = 1.0   
• The Scale 1.25 give us an exponent of 1.25**3 = 1.953125
• The Scale 1.875 gives us an exponent of 1.875**3 = 6.591796875
• The Scale 2.5 gives us an exponent of 2.5**3 = 15.625

You see? The proportions match what you are getting from your game. There's no problem (from the code or from the maths) here, it's working as intended and as it should be.

 

3 hours ago, Daniel Prates said:

2. I would scale down some tanks and the quantities would scale down correctly, but, when I flew the rocket, the delta-v was huge! It must have been calculating as if it had the mount of fuel of the tank prior to being dowsized.

Well, this one can be KSP. In the latest releases I'm seeing a pretty unfortunate trend of using prefab data instead of the part's living data to do some computations and, frankly, this is a show stopper for the Add'on Scene. There's no point on writing add'ons if KSP will trash our computations and use the prefab info disregarding everybody else.

And since TweakScale DOES NOT AND NEVER WILL change any code on KSP itself (it only opportunely instruments Part's data at runtime), any misbehaviour once a successful scaling happens on a clean KSP installment it's on KSP's shoulders. Of course that once you install new add'ons things may change, as some add'ons do change thingies inside KSP - and sometimes they bork - and this is the reason I mentioned a clean KSP installment.

If you can't reproduce the problem using TweakScale (and KSP-Recall) and a clean KSP installment, then the probable cause of the misbehaviour is a 3rd party add'on.

That said, lets check this problem too. I created a very simple rocket using a mk1 pod, a reliant, 4 simple fins and a FL-TX1800 scaled down to 1.25 (unscaled on the picture below for reference)

On KSP 1.11.2, after downscaling the tank I got 1906m/s on VAB:

And on launch, I got:

1910 m/s!!! Not a big change, but less than ideal. I also have the felling that, for a blink of the eye, some other value was displayed on it - but then quickly the expected values came back without any further action from me.

And on launch, thing worked as expected:

So, in conclusion, on a vanilla (TweakScale + KSP-Recall) installment, I could not reproduce your problems.

So my conclusion is that you have an 3rd party add'on involved on the mess. Please send your KSP.log so I can inspect it, looking for suspects!

Cheers!

Full report on https://github.com/net-lisias-ksp/TweakScale/issues/92#issuecomment-913186003

[Daniel Prates]

@Lisias you got me there, I was not considering that when you increase the radius of a cylindrical tank,  you are also (and obviously) increasing the height of the same tank, so the increase is exponential. Duh. 

As for the delta-v, hmmm, I was also using an engine 'tweakscaled' to a different size. How are things in that department? Can I get away with murder enlarging and dis-enlarging engines at will? An even if I do, can it work differently for both stock engines and the wide array of mod engines out there? 

[Lisias]

1 hour ago, Daniel Prates said:

As for the delta-v, hmmm, I was also using an engine 'tweakscaled' to a different size. How are things in that department? Can I get away with murder enlarging and dis-enlarging engines at will? An even if I do, can it work differently for both stock engines and the wide array of mod engines out there? 

Humm… Didn't thought of that, indeed scaling the engines could induce more variables to this mix.

Let's try it. I took the very same craft from the last test, but replaced the Reliant with a Spark and scale it up. And I got similar results...

1. 0.625m (default) : 1.56kN, 0.42 twr, 2842m/s deltaV
2. 0.938m : 45.64kN, 1.10 twr, 2578m/s deltaV
3. 1.25m : 93.69kN, 2.07 twr, 2241m/s deltaV

On launch, however, I got the values: 93.88kN and 2245m/s - again, slightly different from the VAB values. But not that different.

Scaling Engines are a bit different. TweakScale scales the mass using a 2.5 (and not 3), as this value is near what was observed on real similar engines with different sizes. But the fuelflows and the thrust are scaled using a 3 exponent.

Reproducing the same experiment on KSP 1.11.2 gave me identical results on VAB and Launch - interestingly, the diferences on the engine at launch is older than I thought. Anyone willing to do a test run on older KSPs?

So, yeah. If  you want to scale up (or down) the engines and this doesn't spoils up your gaming style, go for it!

(and remember that on Challenges that doesn't permit TweakScale, or don't permit scaling some parts, you can Inactivate it on each part!)

[Daniel Prates]

52 minutes ago, Lisias said:

Humm… Didn't thought of that, indeed scaling the engines could induce more variables to this mix.

Let's try it. I took the very same craft from the last test, but replaced the Reliant with a Spark and scale it up. And I got similar results...

1. 0.625m (default) : 1.56kN, 0.42 twr, 2842m/s deltaV
2. 0.938m : 45.64kN, 1.10 twr, 2578m/s deltaV
3. 1.25m : 93.69kN, 2.07 twr, 2241m/s deltaV

On launch, however, I got the values: 93.88kN and 2245m/s - again, slightly different from the VAB values. But not that different.

Scaling Engines are a bit different. TweakScale scales the mass using a 2.5 (and not 3), as this value is near what was observed on real similar engines with different sizes. But the fuelflows and the thrust are scaled using a 3 exponent.

Reproducing the same experiment on KSP 1.11.2 gave me identical results on VAB and Launch - interestingly, the diferences on the engine at launch is older than I thought. Anyone willing to do a test run on older KSPs?

So, yeah. If  you want to scale up (or down) the engines and this doesn't spoils up your gaming style, go for it!

(and remember that on Challenges that doesn't permit TweakScale, or don't permit scaling some parts, you can Inactivate it on each part!)

 

I won't intend to go into much depth here but yeah, it figures that engines are an entirely different animal altogether. TW scales impulse how? Squared, cubed...? Like "Double the size, double the power"? The number you mention make me think it is in the range of "fractions", if from 0.65 to 1.25 the power measured in Kn goes from 1 to 93, but the entire thing didn't just double in size. So what's the actual power increase ratio? If you do know of course, dont have the trouble of going through extensive testing.

Edited September 5, 2021 by Daniel Prates

[Lisias]

3 hours ago, Daniel Prates said:

 

I won't intend to go into much depth here but yeah, it figures that engines are an entirely different animal altogether. TW scales impulse how? Squared, cubed...? Like "Double the size, double the power"? 

Double the size, triple the thrust and fuel consuption. But the mass uses a 2.5 exponent, so the TWR gets better as the engjne scales up.

[Daniel Prates]

Just now, Lisias said:

Double the size, triple the thrust and fuel consuption. But the mass uses a 2.5 exponent, so the TWR gets better as the engjne scales up.

 

Interesting. So it is to be used sparingly. Taking a very small engine and scaling it up to huge proportions should progressively "boost" (no pun intended, but perhaps yes) the effect in a cumulative way, every time you oversize a bit more the same engine. That could be considered "gamey".

Thanks Lisias you're a ksp treasure.

[Lisias]

4 minutes ago, Daniel Prates said:

Interesting. So it is to be used sparingly. Taking a very small engine and scaling it up to huge proportions should progressively "boost" (no pun intended, but perhaps yes) the effect in a cumulative way, every time you oversize a bit more the same engine. That could be considered "gamey"..

the cost of the part is, by default, scaled with the mass.

On the engine , i think things should be different: unlocking scale up should be pretty cheap, buy scaling up the engine should be way more expensive as it is now.

Unlocking scaling down, on the other hand, should be pretty expensive, but the pricing should decrease a bit less than the price.

And the unlocking must happen on an Engine per engine basis. 

I think this would make things fairer on Career.

Never got the time to understand TechTrees and give this a try, however...  

(Sandbox gameers just don't care about costs anyway!)

 

12 minutes ago, Daniel Prates said:

Thanks Lisias you're a ksp treasure.

Shhhhh! Taxes!

[XBOX-KERBAL1]

Tweakscale gave me a fatal error. I don't what to do except upload my log here.

Log: https://www.dropbox.com/s/2gx4h1vw0ijxgk2/KSP.log?dl=0