UnKerballed Start Mod Discussion

[SpinkAkron]

*edit for title change*

There's been a couple of previous threads inquiring about unmanned start mods.  I'm following through and actually making one.  I’d like to make this a community effort.  Feel free to offer your thoughts on how we should do it.  When things get a little further along (stock done?), we'll move over to the development forum.

Yemo's SETI, Unmanned Before Manned mod cannot be taken over or continued without permission from the author, who has moved on. theonegalen is doing an admirable job keeping it going by making patches but I think we really need a replacement. Rather than trying to faithfully recreate the mod, which has ethical/legal issues due to the license, I’m starting from scratch. My goal it to create an unmanned start mod in the spirit of UBM, but not a copy of it. I want to make something that is easy to maintain and to add support for other mods. And with a license allowing others to take it up if I go MIA.

I’m looking for input from the community on how to proceed. Due to the masochistic way I play (hardercore!), I’ve seldom progressed beyond the Mun so I have little experience with later tech and parts. Also, I’m not interested in space planes so little experience there.  I have made mods before and am a programmer by trade and inclination for what that's worth. I'll be happy to manage the code, unless I prove incompetent.

Although organizationally a handful, technically this is a really simple mod.  It is done with Module Manager patches that are about as basic as you can get. Like this:

This moves the MK1 Pod to the Advanced Flight Control node.

@PART[mk1pod_v2]:NEEDS[CommunityTechTree]:FOR[MyUnmanned]
{
@TechRequired = advFlightControl
}

That's all there is to it.  You only do this for each part you want to move, not all the parts.  

The primary config file will include only stock parts, including the expansion. Each added mod will have its own config file for ease of maintenance. Until the stock parts are placed, I think discussion of where other mods fit is premature.

I’ve started by moving the manned pods to where I think they should go.

Using Community Tech Tree, which will be required:

Mk1 Command Pod – moved from Start (tier 1) to Advanced Flight Control (tier 5).

Mk2 Command Pod – moved from Advanced Flight Control (tier 5) to Command Modules (tier 6).

Mk1-3 Command Pod – moved from Command Modules (tier 6) to Heavy Command Modules (tier 7).

KV-1 Reentry Module – moved from Start (tier 1) to Enhanced Survivabilty (tier 4).

KV-2 Reentry Module – moved from Flight Control (tier 4) to Simple Command Modules (tier 5).

KV-3 Reentry Module – moved from Advanced Flight Control (tier 5) to Command Modules (tier 6).

This puts them in consistent paths and makes the Command Pods one tier ahead of the same generation Reentry Module. I think this is appropriate given their capabilities.  It also gives a nice unmanned early game.  The pace can be set using the rewards percentages in the difficulty settings. The difficulty settings don't really make the game harder. They don't change the game mechanics, just how many missions it takes to acquire science/money, hence the pace. 

The starting probe core will be the Probodobodyne Stayputnik, moved from Basic Science (tier 4). It’s the least capable of the probes and so deserves a starring role in the early game, crashing into the ground over and over. Probodobodyne OKTO, next better, moves from Basic Science (tier 4) to Flight Control (tier 4). Same tier but more appropriate, I think, since control is what the Stayputnik lacks.

I think most of the parts like girders should be available at the start. There doesn’t seem to be any reason they should be at a higher tech. If you can build it on the ground at starting evident tech level,  you should start with it. Wheels, for instance should be early. The difficulty is in getting a rover to another planet, not building one. Kerbals do have ground vehicles, after all. 

SETI UBM modifies the tech tree by adding a few early nodes.  That's an option, but care should be taken. I’d like to avoid even the appearance of plagiarism.  One other thing, it's easy to get hung up on the name of an individual tech node and whether the part fits with that name.  It's just flavor text.  It could be called 'ham sandwich' for all the difference it makes. The part's position relative to the others is what matters (mostly).

I’m most unsure what to do about aircraft. Most unmanned start mods put planes early, in line with our history. I’d like to stay faithful to stock KSP to the extent that I can. Stock KSP starts with manned (Kerballed?) capsules and only later opens up probes and aircraft. Why is this? As far as I am aware there is no backstory detailing Kerbal technological advancement prior to the beginning of the game. Is there something to be deduced from this or is it simply for gameplay reasons? And why does it matter? Well, were’re going to subvert part of it by moving probes to the beginning, but what about aircraft? Do we just assume a similar technological path to ours with aircraft coming before spacecraft? If so, why does the stock game not reflect that? Or am I overthinking this, too? Yeah, I probably am… So, (basic) planes at start or more as stock?

We got lots of rocket engines to sort out and all manner of things there unto pertaining.

I've made a spreadsheet listing all parts and nodes to keep track of what parts are moving where. I hope I did it right...

Unmanned Tech Tree Spreadsheet

 

Edited December 29, 2018 by SpinkAkron

[Kars88]

Great! I really like @theonegalen's take on early aircraft science nodes. It feels right when played with Kerbal Construction Time. 

[theonegalen]

Thanks, @Kars88, I spent a lot of time on those bits! 

I like the idea, @SpinkAkron. I think @Tyko had a similar idea, but I can't find the thread.

[Tyko]

8 hours ago, theonegalen said:

Thanks, @Kars88, I spent a lot of time on those bits! 

I like the idea, @SpinkAkron. I think @Tyko had a similar idea, but I can't find the thread.

Yeah. We'd been talking about taking a stab at it. If @Kars88 wants to that would be great and I can try to help 

[SpinkAkron]

   Ok, I've had a bit of a rethink this week.  Firstly, I think UnKerballed Start is a more appropriate name than Unmanned Start since we're dealing with, you know, Kerbals.  Secondly, for now,  I'd like to stay stock-alike as much as possible, moving parts only when there is a compelling reason.  This includes keeping aircraft as they are in stock.  The only reason I can see to move aircraft is to be in line with human technological development and again, we're dealing with Kerbals, not humans.  There is already other tech trees for folks who want to go the Human technological route.   Less rearranging of the tech also means less changes to other mods to make them compatible.   I am open to having my mind changed though, if this is unpopular.  There's no point making a mod that nobody wants to play.

I think it's important when playing with any modified tech tree to have an appropriate set of contracts.  Stock contracts assume a stock tech tree and frankly aren't very compelling, in my opinion.   I use Stock No Contracts (removes stock entirely), Anomaly Surveyor, Clever Sat, Field Research, Kerbal Academy, Kerbin Space Station, Remote Tech, Rover Missions, Tourism Plus , Strategia, ScanSat.  The  primary career driver is SETI Contracts, which are excellent. 

For what its worth, I'm heavily influenced by the other mods I use and will generally balance towards that.  I use Kerbal Contruction Time, Monthly Budgets, Oh Scrap!, Remote Tech, KoS, Strategia,  ScanSat, DM Orbital Science, and a Life Support mod, played on hard mode with 30% science to balance the additional science parts.  One of my house rules is no manual controlling of probes, only via KoS.

Recent changes :

Swap positions of LV-T45 and LV-T30 engines. 

Move Z-100 battery, External Command Seat, and Rovemax model X2 wheels to Engineering 101. Bare minimum to give the ability to make a rudimentary rover to collect KSC science.  This is pretty much required to get started on Hard Mode.

Added initial configs for Ven's Stock Revamp, Missing History, KoS, and Remote Tech.  Minimal changes so far. I looked at TAC LS, USI LS, and Kerbalism and things seems to already be in a reasonable place.

One change in the VenStockOverhaul support config moves the stock LV-30 back to General Rocketry since Ven's Dachshund better fills the role as first LF engine.  Note that this change is not in the Stock config, only in the Vens support config, hopefully making upkeep easier.

UnKerballedStart Tech Tree Spreadsheet updated

 

[theJesuit]

Are you looking for more stockish or would something like Simplex Techtree with contract specific mods?

I would be very open to some contracts being written to go with the tech tree or some suggestions to force flight before spaceflight (which appears to be what you are suggesting)? That's not my passion but happy to integrate someone elses work.

Just a thought... I personally used to always collected science from the KSC biomes for several career playthoughs until I realised I was getting bored and discovered KEI.  I mean personal tastes and all that.  But I always thought that wheels are designed for off world stuff like low atmosphere stuff like the apollo moon buggy.

Peace.

[theJesuit]

Also the unkerballed moniker isn't that catchy.  Neither is my own usual fallback of "uncrewed before crewed.'

How about 'probes before bros'

or KAP 'Kerbals after probes'. 

POS 'Probe only start'

UnCrewed Start UCS.

Non-kerbal Probing.

Advance Before Committing Crew. ABCC.  I like this the best.  If you aren't keen on it I may even work into Simplex.

Peace.

Edited December 30, 2018 by theJesuit
Added the better ones.

[Xurkitree]

Solar panels should be unlocked at tier 4, or even tier 3. 

[Kars88]

@SpinkAkron let me know if I can be of any help. I've made tech tree configs before and have a lot of free time in januari. I can make some tree patches for a couple of mods for example.

[Tyko]

On 12/25/2018 at 5:04 PM, SpinkAkron said:

Mk1 Command Pod – moved from Start (tier 1) to Advanced Flight Control (tier 5).

I'd put this in Simple Command Modules. it IS a simple command module and this puts it on a direct path for the Mk2 and, later the, Mk1-2. since they're all the same basic design they should be on the same tech line

 

[severedsolo]

Awesome to see this, I know there has been talk of doing this for a while, and I've contributed a couple of patches to UBME myself, but it's great to see something from the ground up.

I love the idea of having the Reentry Modules before the "Nasa" command pods, as I feel like really they get overlooked (I personally never use them, because they are the "stayputnik" of the command pod world, everything about the Mk1 pod is better than the Pea).

On aircraft - I personally am very in favour of keeping aircraft tech early (even starting/first things you unlock) - I personally do early survey contracts to get the science/funds to unlock the manned spacecraft parts, but I'm biased because that's how I play, so if you don't want to go down that route, I can always patch it in for myself.

Contracts - It's been a few years, but I am/used to be a dab hand at writing Contract Configurator contracts, and would be happy to devote a little of my time to writing some for this pack. (Exploration Plus for instance, could easily be adapted for this - I never really liked the Seti contracts, but I don't remember why)

Edited December 30, 2018 by severedsolo

[Espatie]

I'm disappointed you didn't go with "Kerbal Minus Kerbals" as a name, but maybe I've read too much Garfield Minus Garfield.

[SpinkAkron]

1 hour ago, Tyko said:

I'd put this in Simple Command Modules. it IS a simple command module and this puts it on a direct path for the Mk2 and, later the, Mk1-2. since they're all the same basic design they should be on the same tech line

 

Taken by themselves, I'd agree.   But in contrast to the Soviet-style Reentry Pods, the capsules have reaction wheels so I thought bringing them in through the Flight Control path would suggest a different lineage.  The two paths converge at Command Modules, which seems appropriate.   Additionally, it leaves Simple Command Modules open for the crude two-man capsule in Ven's, giving it some time in the sun.   

The two sets don't really even belong in the same tech tree since they come from two different 'real' tech trees.  No one culture would build both sets.  Ideally there would be two separate paths where you choose one set or the other.

I'm rethinking my rethink about keeping things mostly stock.  That was motivated in part by being overcautious about respecting Yemo's license.  But inevitably, there's going to be a lot of overlap with any attempt to make a more realistic technological progression.  As long as I don't make an outright copy, I'm going to stop worrying about it.

So early aircraft it is.  I've never gotten into the plane game in KSP,  so if anybody has any recommendations for what parts(including mods) should be in what nodes, I'd be glad to get them.  I'd think we wouldn't want too many parts at start or there will be nothing left to fill the later nodes. There is also the new branch leading off Subsonic Flight that needs filled.   Maybe this gets filled out with mods.

The first useful satellites I make are for the Remote Tech array above Kerbin.  I haven't played with the stock CommNet, but I assume it works in a similar fashion.  I think having the necessary tech available at tier 4 is the right level for that.   There should be appropriate engines available. I'm thinking move the LV-1/LV-1R  to Advanced Rocketry(4).  The way I play is really all I have to go on.  I don't want to railroad people into my play style so if it looks like I'm doing that , please speak up.

 

11 hours ago, Xurkitree said:

Solar panels should be unlocked at tier 4, or even tier 3. 

I agree.  How about the fixed one in Basic Science(4) and the early deployable ones at Electrics(5)?  That makes unlocking that first tier 5 node the last I need to make my CommSats .  With my play style, getting there feels like a real accomplishment. 

 

2 hours ago, Kars88 said:

@SpinkAkron let me know if I can be of any help. I've made tech tree configs before and have a lot of free time in januari. I can make some tree patches for a couple of mods for example.

Great!  Any help will be much appreciated.  Take a look at how Historical Progression Tree is structured. I'm using that as as my model for the correct way to add mod support (apologies to Yemo).  Every mod in it's own separate config file.  Only stock parts go in the main config.  Stock parts can be moved about in mod support configs tho, like I did with Vens. 

Forging ahead...

 

 

 

  

[Kars88]

5 minutes ago, SpinkAkron said:

Great!  Any help will be much appreciated.  Take a look at how Historical Progression Tree is structured. I'm using that as as my model for the correct way to add mod support (apologies to Yemo).  Every mod in it's own separate config file.  Only stock parts go in the main config.  Stock parts can be moved about in mod support configs tho, like I did with Vens. 

Forging ahead..

I'll have a look next week after new years! 

[SpinkAkron]

2 hours ago, severedsolo said:

Contracts - It's been a few years, but I am/used to be a dab hand at writing Contract Configurator contracts, and would be happy to devote a little of my time to writing some for this pack. (Exploration Plus for instance, could easily be adapted for this - I never really liked the Seti contracts, but I don't remember why)

I'm a severedsolo fanboy.  How the heck did I miss this?   Downloading now...

 

 

[SpinkAkron]

6 hours ago, Espatie said:

I'm disappointed you didn't go with "Kerbal Minus Kerbals" as a name, but maybe I've read too much Garfield Minus Garfield.

We could easily do this by removing all the capsules. Probes for everything! I may be a dinosaur (COBOL programmer),  but I loves me some kOS. 

 

[Tyko]

10 hours ago, SpinkAkron said:

Taken by themselves, I'd agree.   But in contrast to the Soviet-style Reentry Pods, the capsules have reaction wheels so I thought bringing them in through the Flight Control path would suggest a different lineage.  The two paths converge at Command Modules, which seems appropriate.   Additionally, it leaves Simple Command Modules open for the crude two-man capsule in Ven's, giving it some time in the sun.   

The two sets don't really even belong in the same tech tree since they come from two different 'real' tech trees.  No one culture would build both sets.  Ideally there would be two separate paths where you choose one set or the other.

I'm rethinking my rethink about keeping things mostly stock.  That was motivated in part by being overcautious about respecting Yemo's license.  But inevitably, there's going to be a lot of overlap with any attempt to make a more realistic technological progression.  As long as I don't make an outright copy, I'm going to stop worrying about it.

The Russian style pods are MH and Ven's is a mod. I'd suggest building your base tree with the Mk1 and Mk1-2 both in the command pods line since they are the stock command pods. Don't build your tree around the assumption that players will have MH or Ven's.

[SpinkAkron]

14 hours ago, Tyko said:

The Russian style pods are MH and Ven's is a mod. I'd suggest building your base tree with the Mk1 and Mk1-2 both in the command pods line since they are the stock command pods. Don't build your tree around the assumption that players will have MH or Ven's.

Alright.  It will be Advanced Flight Control when Making History is present,  Simple Command Modules when it is not.

[SpinkAkron]

Airplane parts moved to start:

Swept Wings
Tail Fin
Tail Connector A
Small Circular Intake
Elevon 1
Mk1 Cockpit
J-20 "Juno" Basic Jet Engine
LY-01 Fixed Landing Gear
LY-05 Steerable Landing Gear
 

What I got so far:  UnKerballedStart.zip

 

 

Edited December 31, 2018 by SpinkAkron
added link

[theonegalen]

Check this out.

 

[SpinkAkron]

7 minutes ago, theonegalen said:

Check this out.

 

Thanks, I saw that.  The more the merrier.

[theonegalen]

5 minutes ago, SpinkAkron said:

Thanks, I saw that.  The more the merrier.

I believe it's best to avoid duplication of effort where possible. What do you think of his changes?

EDIT: of course, there's nothing to stop him from vanishing the way @Yemo did, so having more than one UBM-style mod would probably be a good thing.

Edited January 1, 2019 by theonegalen

[SpinkAkron]

15 minutes ago, theonegalen said:

I believe it's best to avoid duplication of effort where possible. What do you think of his changes?

EDIT: of course, there's nothing to stop him from vanishing the way @Yemo did, so having more than one UBM-style mod would probably be a good thing.

It looks like he's got a little different vision, more like my first rethink maybe. But if it looks like we're making essentially the same thing, maybe we can throw in together.   

[SpinkAkron]

I've essentially moved the plane parts down a node, so most of what was in Aviation is now in Start.  Aerodynamics to Aviation, etc.   It'll need tweaking I'm sure.  I moved the rest of parachutes to the survivability line. The decouplers/separators were scattered all over the tree, so I've tried to make them more consistent .   I've moved the nosecones and fairings from the construction line to the aerodynamics line.   I'll tackle fuel tanks next.  I think that they should be arranged by volume more than diameter.

I took Tyko's advice and removed the Making History parts from the main config and moved them to the mod support folder.

UnKerballedStart.zip

UnKerballedStart Tech Tree Spreadsheet updated

 

 

[theonegalen]

24 minutes ago, SpinkAkron said:

I've essentially moved the plane parts down a node, so most of what was in Aviation is now in Start.  Aerodynamics to Aviation, etc.   It'll need tweaking I'm sure.  I moved the rest of parachutes to the survivability line. The decouplers/separators were scattered all over the tree, so I've tried to make them more consistent .   I've moved the nosecones and fairings from the construction line to the aerodynamics line.   I'll tackle fuel tanks next.  I think that they should be arranged by volume more than diameter.

I took Tyko's advice and removed the Making History parts from the main config and moved them to the mod support folder.

UnKerballedStart.zip

UnKerballedStart Tech Tree Spreadsheet updated

 

 

I really liked the UBM Early Aviation node. What do you think of a 5 science Basic Planes node that is in Tier 2 with Engineering 101 and Basic Rocketry?